Pomegranate Juice Delays PSA Doubling

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defender3
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Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 98
   Posted 2/23/2010 3:08 PM (GMT -6)   
Sorry if this may be a rehash, but I did a search and didn't find anything on the forum. I'm not scheduled for my first post-op PSA until the 19th of March, but I'm hoping for the best.


The links are to a study that tends to indicate pomegranate juice may significantly extend the time it takes for PSA to double. The study was on 48 men who had already undergone treatment and whose PSA was rising. I know 48 men is hardly a trend, but I thought it was worth mentioning. Pomegranate also seems to do well with cardiovascular health and breast cancer, but I did not include those links, you can Google them easily. Provided FYI.



Cheers,



John




http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/12/13/4018.abstract



http://www.worldhealth.net/news/pomegranate_suppresses_prostate_cancer_g/



UCLA Clinical Trial:http://urology.ucla.edu/body.cfm?id=112


Links to older stories that also supported pomegranate juice’s qualities:



http://prostatecancerinfolink.net/2008/10/16/of-prostate-cancer-and-pomegranates/



http://www.webmd.com/prostate-cancer/news/20090426/pomegranate-juice-may-slow-prostate-cancer



http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070924095856.htm



http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060702084515.htm



http://news.healingwell.com/index.php?p=news1&id=528142

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051002120002.htm

Casey59
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Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 3172
   Posted 2/23/2010 3:12 PM (GMT -6)   
Pomegranate extract tabs do the trick, too.
 
I take them daily to help keep favorable odds stacked in my favor.

Purgatory
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Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25380
   Posted 2/23/2010 3:30 PM (GMT -6)   
I just wish I like the taste of the stuff, personally, I find it dreadful, even when mixed with other juices.
Age: 57, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 7/08 12.3, 9/08 14.5, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 - 7/7 Positive, 40-90% Cancer, Gleason 4+3
Open RP: 11/08, Rht nerves saved, 4 days in hospt, on catheters for 63 days, 5th one out 1/09
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Incontinence:  1 Month     ED:  Non issue at any point post surgery
Post Surgery  PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12
Latest: 7/9 met 2 rad. oncl, 7/9 cath #6 - blockage, 8/9 2nd corr surgery, 8/9 cath #7 out 38 days, 9/9 - met 3rd rad. oncl., mapped  9/9, 10/1 - 3rd corr. surgery - SP cath/hard dialation, 10/5 - 11/27 IMRT SRT 39 sess/72 gys ,cath #8 33 days, Cath #9 35 days, 12/7 - Cath #10 43 days, 1/19 - Corr Surgery #4,  Caths #11 and #12 in at the same time, 2/8-Cath #11 out - 21 days


defender3
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Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 98
   Posted 2/23/2010 3:43 PM (GMT -6)   
Pomegranate extract tabs do the trick, too.

I take them daily to help keep favorable odds stacked in my favor.

I can never seem to get the darn quote function to work - Casey, are you using the POMx pills or another variety?

zufus
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Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 3149
   Posted 2/23/2010 4:27 PM (GMT -6)   
There was a local study here in Michigan between a few hospitals that sponsord these limited testings, but even among patients subdivided into HRPCa (refractive patients) and the norm PCa group patients a benefit was measured in months or longer depending upon the group and the things they ate. They did slow down doubling time substantially, so something is in the proof of this pudding (lol).
Things used were: soy, tomatoes, bright colored fruits (lycopenes).
So no down side to eating such things and maybe a nice plus side. I saw this presentation maybe 2 yrs. ago or more, but it was worth hearing about, it was for a PCa support group meeting.


Youth is wasted on the Young-(W.C. Fields)

Post Edited (zufus) : 2/24/2010 4:27:27 AM (GMT-7)


Casey59
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Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 3172
   Posted 2/23/2010 4:34 PM (GMT -6)   
defender3 said...
Pomegranate extract tabs do the trick, too.

I take them daily to help keep favorable odds stacked in my favor.

I can never seem to get the darn quote function to work - Casey, are you using the POMx pills or another variety?

OK, now I'm just showing off...  smilewinkgrin
 
I have used two other brands which I have found in my local pharmacy.  They are a little hard to find, however; not all drug stores carry them.  These are, of course, over-the-counter, and therefore unregulated.
 
I take two other OTC meds, both of which I have been taking since long before PC entered my life:  glucosamine and fish oil.
 
Purg-I don't like the taste of the juice either, that's why I turned to the extract tabs.
 
 
 
[This thread has turned into an invitation to the nay-sayers to jump in.]
 
 

Post Edited (Casey59) : 2/23/2010 3:39:14 PM (GMT-7)


deer hunter
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 246
   Posted 2/23/2010 5:02 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi guys i tried the acca juice for 6 months at $38.00 a quart bottle i had no results that stuffwas suppose to out do everything on the market so much for that it did't work. Tomatoes have lacpione which does help in the fight, i do drink soy milk the chocolate.
Deerhunter!

Im_Patient
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Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 665
   Posted 2/23/2010 5:25 PM (GMT -6)   
I guess my big question is a similar one to the one I ask about HRT: is it just improving the PSA, or does it also do something to combat the cancer? Improving your stats is good, though, I suppose. I'm going to be drinking the stuff in the coming months.
Gleason, 3+4; PSA, 7.9
Robotic Prostatectomy, March 2008 (Age 48 then), nerves both sides spared, post surgery analysis confirmed 3+4 Gleason,
pT2c, prostate 60.2g, margins: negative; perineural invasion: present; lymphatic invasion: present; 3 lymph nodes removed, clear; seminal vesicle invasion: absent; Gleason 4 comprises 5-10% of carcinoma
PSA consistently <0.1 since surgery until Oct 09, 0.1; retested Oct 09, <0.1,
Jan 10, 0.2
retest Feb 1 confirmed 0.2


Im_Patient
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Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 665
   Posted 2/23/2010 5:35 PM (GMT -6)   
Well, looking at one of the articles, human prostate cancer tumors grew slower in mice being fed pomegranate juice. Seems as if it might not just be the PSA, then...
Gleason, 3+4; PSA, 7.9
Robotic Prostatectomy, March 2008 (Age 48 then), nerves both sides spared, post surgery analysis confirmed 3+4 Gleason,
pT2c, prostate 60.2g, margins: negative; perineural invasion: present; lymphatic invasion: present; 3 lymph nodes removed, clear; seminal vesicle invasion: absent; Gleason 4 comprises 5-10% of carcinoma
PSA consistently <0.1 since surgery until Oct 09, 0.1; retested Oct 09, <0.1,
Jan 10, 0.2
retest Feb 1 confirmed 0.2


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25380
   Posted 2/23/2010 6:14 PM (GMT -6)   
casey, didn't think about the tablet form

when i met with the 3 different radiation oncologists prior to SRT, diet in general and the pomerganate juice were discussed. All of them felt like it does no harm, and all supported a heart healthy diet in general. But they all made it clear that once the cow is out of the barn, the juice and other dietary changes aren't going to directly help any existing cancer situation. That is their combined opinion, not mine.

i dont seem any harm in drinking it if that is what someone wants to do.

david in sc
Age: 57, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 7/08 12.3, 9/08 14.5, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 - 7/7 Positive, 40-90% Cancer, Gleason 4+3
Open RP: 11/08, Rht nerves saved, 4 days in hospt, on catheters for 63 days, 5th one out 1/09
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Incontinence:  1 Month     ED:  Non issue at any point post surgery
Post Surgery  PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12
Latest: 7/9 met 2 rad. oncl, 7/9 cath #6 - blockage, 8/9 2nd corr surgery, 8/9 cath #7 out 38 days, 9/9 - met 3rd rad. oncl., mapped  9/9, 10/1 - 3rd corr. surgery - SP cath/hard dialation, 10/5 - 11/27 IMRT SRT 39 sess/72 gys ,cath #8 33 days, Cath #9 35 days, 12/7 - Cath #10 43 days, 1/19 - Corr Surgery #4,  Caths #11 and #12 in at the same time, 2/8-Cath #11 out - 21 days


Casey59
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Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 3172
   Posted 2/23/2010 7:28 PM (GMT -6)   
Purgatory said...
...once the cow is out of the barn, the juice and other dietary changes aren't going to directly help any existing cancer situation.
David, once you've got prostate cancer, pomegranate juice won't reverse it.  If that's what "they" meant, then "they" are absolutely correct.  I would guess that's what they meant when then said "once the cow is out of the barn." 
 
 
But the really great news is that for those of us (like you and me) who have had either surgery or radiation (or both), Pomegranate juice has been shown to slow the further progression of prostate cancer (if any still exists within us).  Not stop it, but slow it.  There's a lot of guys who are in the same boat of wanting to slow the growth of PC after primary treatment (or while on AS).
 
Here's the actual titles of the first 3 links provided by defender3.
  • Phase II Study of Pomegranate Juice for Men with Rising Prostate-Specific Antigen following Surgery or Radiation for Prostate Cancer
  • Pomegranate suppresses prostate cancer genes
  • Prostate Cancer: Clinical Trial of pomegranate liquid extract for men with rising PSA after primary treatment.

Like your doctors have said, it won't cure PC, but it is likely to slow the progression.  Try it if you'd like to stack some of the odds in your favor.

 

 


medved
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Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 1096
   Posted 2/23/2010 7:34 PM (GMT -6)   
Dr. Meyers stated recently that, in his view, there is a difference between most pomegranate juices and those that are kept refrigerated and under certain other specified conditions, in terms of the extent to which they are likely to be of any use in connection with prostate cancer or the prevention thereof. He mentioned POM Wonderful as the brand that he recommends. (I have seen it in grocery stores -- it is kept refrigerated unlike most others -- it also seems to be more expensive than most). He suggested that, in his view, some of the others -- such as those that come from Turkey in concentrate form -- are probably not helpful. Dr. Strum suggested that the tablets could be a good idea, since he likes the idea of pomegrante juice, but the sugar is a downside. I have no independent views on these issues, so I am just passing along what I recall reading from these two scholars of prostate cancer. Also, it is possible that I have not fully captured the views that they expressed, as I am just doing this from memory.
Age 45.  Father died of p ca. 
My psa starting age 40: 1.4, 1.3, 1.43, 1.74, 1.7, 1.5
 


Casey59
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Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 3172
   Posted 2/23/2010 7:41 PM (GMT -6)   
medved said...
Dr. Strum suggested that the tablets could be a good idea, since he likes the idea of pomegrante juice, but the sugar is a downside.
Medved, when I first read your sentence, I misinterpreted it.  Then I re-read it and recognized that it could be interperted two opposite ways. 
 
Just for clarity, I think that this is another way of saying the same thing:  Pomegranate extract provides the same benefit with less sugar.
 
 

keysailfisher
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 346
   Posted 2/23/2010 7:44 PM (GMT -6)   
Is it true that Pomegranate juice and cholesterol medicine should not be taking together?
 
Neal

 

 


age 45
psa 3.09
Biopsy results 12/9
Left side base 3+3=6 21% 2/2 cores positive
Left side mid  3+3=6 100% 2/2 cores positive
Left side apex 3+4=7 88% 2/2 cores positive
Right side - 0/6
CT & Bone scan negative
Davinci Feb. 5th 2010/ cath removal 2/16
 
Gleason-3+4=7
Extent of tumor-Bilateral
Extraprostatic Extension-Absent
Seminal Vesicles-Negative for tumor
Surgical Margins-Rt apical margin focally positive
lymphovascular invasion-Suspicious in areas of capsular involvement
Regional lymph nodes-One node negative
Stage-T2c NO Mx
Incontinence-yes


Casey59
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 3172
   Posted 2/23/2010 7:55 PM (GMT -6)   
keysailfisher said...
Is it true that Pomegranate juice and cholesterol medicine should not be taking together?
 
Neal

 

Neal, as innocent as the intent of that question may have been, it seems like you are asking a question that a doctor or pharmacist should answer...I am neither.

Nonetheless, we do both have access to www.pubmed.com which is an online, free library of medical publications.  I did a quick search of the terms "pomegranate AND cholesterol" and found 20 hits.  I just scanned the titles, but didn't find anything that seemed to imply a conflict between the two.  In fact, one was titled "Cholesterol-lowering effect of concentrated pomegranate juice consumption in type II diabetic patients with hyperlipidemia."

If you are on cholesterol meds and are concerned, probably worth a chat with your local phamacist.  Hope that helps...


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25380
   Posted 2/23/2010 8:00 PM (GMT -6)   
Casey:

The slowing part is good and important benefit for sure. Yes, the conversation with the doctors was absolutely in relationship to the juice not reversing or stopping cancer.
Age: 57, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 7/08 12.3, 9/08 14.5, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 - 7/7 Positive, 40-90% Cancer, Gleason 4+3
Open RP: 11/08, Rht nerves saved, 4 days in hospt, on catheters for 63 days, 5th one out 1/09
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Incontinence:  1 Month     ED:  Non issue at any point post surgery
Post Surgery  PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12
Latest: 7/9 met 2 rad. oncl, 7/9 cath #6 - blockage, 8/9 2nd corr surgery, 8/9 cath #7 out 38 days, 9/9 - met 3rd rad. oncl., mapped  9/9, 10/1 - 3rd corr. surgery - SP cath/hard dialation, 10/5 - 11/27 IMRT SRT 39 sess/72 gys ,cath #8 33 days, Cath #9 35 days, 12/7 - Cath #10 43 days, 1/19 - Corr Surgery #4,  Caths #11 and #12 in at the same time, 2/8-Cath #11 out - 21 days


defender3
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 98
   Posted 2/23/2010 8:28 PM (GMT -6)   
zufus said...

There was a local study here in Michigan between a few hospitals that sponsord these limited testings, but even among patients subdivided into HRPCa (refractive patients) and the norm PCa group patients a benefit was measured in months or longer depending upon the group and the things they ate. They did slow down doubling time substaintly, so something is in the proof of this pudding (lol).
Things used were: soy, tomatoes, bright colored fruits (lycopenes).
So no down side to eating such things and maybe a nice plus side. I saw this presentation maybe 2 yrs. ago or more, but it was worth hearing about, it was for a PCa support group meeting.



I believe one of the studies showed doubling time increased to 54 months.

Casey59
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Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 3172
   Posted 2/23/2010 9:17 PM (GMT -6)   
defender3 said...
I believe one of the studies showed doubling time increased to 54 months. 

PSADT increased from a mean of 15 months to 54 months in the study.
 
That was in the very first link that you posted...
 
 

pasayten
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 437
   Posted 2/23/2010 11:34 PM (GMT -6)   
FYI,
 
For the cholestorel drugs like simvastatin,   do not intake any grapefruit juice or products as they cause interference.   Did not mention pomegranite juice in my instructions.
 
pasayten
After 3-4 years of annual PSA 4-6, biopsy recommended
3/13/2007 - 12 point biopsy - Left 0/6  Right 1/6 Gleason 3+3 T1c
4/24/2007 - DaVinci performed at Virginia Mason hospital in Seattle
5/2/2007 - Catheter Out! Final pathology of Gleason 6  T2c Nx Mx, approx 20% of prostate involved, positive margin, but only at 2 focal points.  
6/28/2007 9 weeks incontinance... Overnite, went from 4-6 soaked pads a day from prev 8 weeks to 2 barely wet pads a day.
7/12/2007 11 weeks post-op  Minimal leakage...  one small pad a day
7/18/2007 First Post-Op PSA...  0.01 !!! 
9/10/2007 Pad free and ED at 75% with 100mg Viagra generic
6/26/2008 2nd Post-OP PSA at 14 months...  0.02 
12/2/2008 3rd Post-OP PSA at 20 months...   0.03
10/30/2009 4th Post-OP PSA at 31 months...   0.13 (moved and diff lab)
11/3/2009 Retest at my original lab...  0.11  (followup with Doc sched 11/10)
11/10/2009 Discussion indicated biochemical reccurrence and need for salvage radiation treatment. 
1/21/2010 Another PSA test at 34 months...  0.14
1/26/2010 IMRT Salvage Radiation Treatment started
                  32 sessions for 64 gys total.
2/20/2010 17 down and 15 to go...  No side effects to date except a little
tiredness.  Sometimes feel like a slight sunburn on the inside for a few hours after treatment.
 


compiler
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Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 7205
   Posted 2/24/2010 12:02 AM (GMT -6)   
So, let's say I go to my grocery store and buy 100% pomeg. juice.
How much should one drink each day. 6-8 oz.?
 
Mel

63 years old . PSA-- 3/08--2.90; 8/09--4.01; 11/09--4.19 (Free PSA 24%),  after 45 days on cipro! DREs have always been normal. PCA-3

Biopsy on 11/30/09. 5 out of 12 cores positive. Gleason 4+3. 2 cores were 3+3 (one 5% and the other 30%) on one side. On  other side:2 cores are 4+3 (5%)--1 core 3+4 (30%) no peri-neural invasion. prostate is 45 grams. Stage: T1C.  

Surgery with Dr. Menon at Ford Hospital, 1/26/10. He says all looked good. Spared nerves. Unfortunately: Pathology Report: G 4+3 (65%-35%). Cancer in 15% of gland. Lymph Nodes: Clear.  Perineural Invasion: yes. Seminal Vessical Involvement: No.  Extraprostatic Extension: yes.  Positive Margin: Yes-- focal-- 1 spot .5mm. Final Weight is 52.7 gms. 

 Incontinence: joined that club-- definite leaks—1 pad/day. Night is dry, was  using 1 pad at night for security, but pretty much dispensed with that most nights.

Next Event: First post-op PSA on 3/1/10


pasayten
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 437
   Posted 2/24/2010 12:06 AM (GMT -6)   
FYI,
 

April 26, 2009 -- Drinking 8 ounces of pomegranate juice daily may slow the progression of localized prostate cancer ( prostate cancer that hasn't spread), a new study shows.

http://www.webmd.com/prostate-cancer/news/20090426/pomegranate-juice-may-slow-prostate-cancer

P.S.

Five of the six researchers who conducted the study disclose ties to POM Wonderful, which makes the pomegranate juice used in the study.

 

 

pasayten

 


After 3-4 years of annual PSA 4-6, biopsy recommended
3/13/2007 - 12 point biopsy - Left 0/6  Right 1/6 Gleason 3+3 T1c
4/24/2007 - DaVinci performed at Virginia Mason hospital in Seattle
5/2/2007 - Catheter Out! Final pathology of Gleason 6  T2c Nx Mx, approx 20% of prostate involved, positive margin, but only at 2 focal points.  
6/28/2007 9 weeks incontinance... Overnite, went from 4-6 soaked pads a day from prev 8 weeks to 2 barely wet pads a day.
7/12/2007 11 weeks post-op  Minimal leakage...  one small pad a day
7/18/2007 First Post-Op PSA...  0.01 !!! 
9/10/2007 Pad free and ED at 75% with 100mg Viagra generic
6/26/2008 2nd Post-OP PSA at 14 months...  0.02 
12/2/2008 3rd Post-OP PSA at 20 months...   0.03
10/30/2009 4th Post-OP PSA at 31 months...   0.13 (moved and diff lab)
11/3/2009 Retest at my original lab...  0.11  (followup with Doc sched 11/10)
11/10/2009 Discussion indicated biochemical reccurrence and need for salvage radiation treatment. 
1/21/2010 Another PSA test at 34 months...  0.14
1/26/2010 IMRT Salvage Radiation Treatment started
                  32 sessions for 64 gys total.
2/20/2010 17 down and 15 to go...  No side effects to date except a little
tiredness.  Sometimes feel like a slight sunburn on the inside for a few hours after treatment.
 


bcc
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 46
   Posted 2/24/2010 1:14 AM (GMT -6)   
hi pergatory just mix it with red wine .great. barry ps i prefer merlot
PSA Aug 07 was 3, Mid 08, 3.5, mid 09, 7.27

First biopsy july 09 - t2a on left . 11 samples taken from 6 blocks. 4 blocks show positive for adenocarcinoma. 1 block 10%, 3 blocks 5%, overall gleason 3 plus 4. No perineural invasion seen. Seminal vesicles clear.

End Oct 2009, bone scan all clear, MRI shows 6mm lesion on bottom left and rest of gland diffused image. Late Nov 2009, a template biopsy of 32 from 20 sites adenocarcinoma, gleason 3 plus 4 at 10 sites; unfortunately spread over both left and right.


English Alf
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Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 2215
   Posted 2/24/2010 2:56 AM (GMT -6)   
Im patient
I hope those tests on the mice were right.

I don't wish to be a pessimist or spoil-sport here, but do these chemicals in the juices and fruits mentioned actually do anything to the cancer. It occurs to me that that could just be doing something to the way the cancer produces PSA or to the speed that the body breaks it down.

And with regard to lycopene in tomatoes etc this is appartantly one area where the tinned product is better than the fresh one. And tomato paste/puree is meant to be even richer in lycopene (not lacpione.)
see:
www.healthcastle.com/lycopene-prostatecancer.shtml

There's no harm in a good diet so I'm still happy to eat and drink this kind of stuff. (In moderation) but 10 servings of tomatoes a day seems a bit too much

I can't find pure pommy juice in my supermarket but bought a juice that contains pommy, plus raspberry, apple and blackcurrant, 12.5% total sugars and quite acidic it also contaions added sugar.

Also got another juice that contains mixture of acai, apple, grape, cherry, passionfruit and lemon total of 11.5% sugar.

(both these drinks have added Vit C and Vit E and are made from concentrate. They both cost €1.97 a litre and have to be kept refrigerated)

The juices I've been drinking in the past only contain 8.5% sugar, so maybe I'll end up seeing les of my uro and more of my dentist.

Alfred

zufus
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 3149
   Posted 2/24/2010 5:51 AM (GMT -6)   
When patients have results in slowing of psa doubling times, you are slowing the cancers progression time...you are buying time. You cannot put a price on buying time, I would presume. Not to mention keeping your psa low and in check will give you better quality of life during that time. The treatments that follow for patients with very high psa levels or in some cases the very-very low psa values-but found with very aggressive PCa's (these are usually among those rarer variant types of PCa's that do not give off psa's to measure...but is detected via other screening tests and such maybe even scans showed mets spots), they are looking for answers and among that is ways for possible control and buying some time...it is omnious I am sure when one finds they are in that phase of PCa scenario. Whereby chemo and other heavy side effect protocols are used on many patients and a trade off of buying (some) time, while quality of life is dimished during that process in alot of cases.
Youth is wasted on the Young-(W.C. Fields)


English Alf
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Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 2215
   Posted 2/24/2010 6:10 AM (GMT -6)   
Pubmed had this item too from 2002

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12424330
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