Does removing the nerve bundles improve your chance of survival from PC

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Ed C. (Old67)
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 2460
   Posted 3/13/2010 8:53 AM (GMT -6)   
I'm just wondering if removing the nerve bundles allow the surgeon to be more aggressive in removing adjacent tissues and thus obtaining negative surgical margins.
Age: 67 at Dx on 12/30/08
PSA 9/05 1.15; 8/06 1.45; 12/07 2.41; 8/08 3.9; 11/08 3.5 free PSA 11%
2 cores out of 12 were positive Gleason (4+4) and (4+5)
Negative CT scan and bone scan done on 1/16
Robotic surgery performed 2/9/09 Dr Fagin, Austin TX
Pathology report:
Prostate weighed 57 grams size:5.2 x 5.0 x 4.9 cm
Posterior lateral lesions measuring 1.5 x 1.4 x 1.0 cm showing focal capsular penetration over a distance of 3mm in circumference.
Prostatic adenocarciroma accounts for approx. 10-20% of the hemisphere.
Gleason 4+4
both nerve bundles removed,
pT3a Nx Mx, Negative margins
seminal vesicles clean, lymph nodes: not dissected
continent after 4 months
8 weeks PSA test 4/7/09 result <0.1
5 months PSA test 7/9/09 result <0.1
8 months PSA test 10/9/09 result <0.1
11.5 months test 1/21/10 result 0.004


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 3/13/2010 9:48 AM (GMT -6)   
Ed,

I believe that is the correct notion in thinking. My surgeon discussed that I would likely lose both nerve bundles, because he felt where the tumor was located, he needed to cut wide enough to be sure. He removed the left bundle, and despite going "wide", my one and only tiny positive margin was where he cut wide. My working right bundle was left, as is, though he noted that it appeared damaged, because they couldn't access it properly due to "the deep and narrow prostate bed" issue. Fortunately, no cancer was found on the right side.

In the pre nerve sparing days, I wonder if there were less positive margins and recurrance, that would be interesting to see data if it existed, because they tended to cut wide with only open surgeries of course.

David in SC
Age: 57, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 7/08 12.3, 9/08 14.5, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 - 7/7 Positive, 40-90% Cancer, Gleason 4+3
Open RP: 11/08, Rht nerves saved, 4 days in hospt, on catheters for 63 days, 5th one out 1/09
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Incontinence:  1 Month     ED:  Non issue at any point post surgery, no problem post SRT
Post Surgery  PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12
Latest: 7/9 met 2 rad. oncl, 7/9 cath #6 - blockage, 8/9 2nd corr surgery, 8/9 cath #7 out 38 days, 9/9 - met 3rd rad. oncl., mapped  9/9, 10/1 - 3rd corr. surgery - SP cath/hard dialation, 10/5 - 11/27 IMRT SRT 39 sess/72 gys ,cath #8 33 days, Cath #9 35 days, 12/7 - Cath #10 43 days, 1/19 - Corr Surgery #4,  Caths #11 and #12  same time, 2/8-Cath #11 out - 21 days, 3/2- Cath #12 out - 41 days, 3/2- Corr Surgery #5, Caths #13 & #14 same time, 3/6 Cath #13 out - 4 days


Jerry1
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 460
   Posted 3/13/2010 10:26 AM (GMT -6)   
 
Ed,
 
My surgeon removed both nerve bundles because I was a Gleason 8 I did not have any positive margins and still had a recurrance after nine months so I don't think anyone knows.
 
Jerry1
 
Age 70
DX 8/13/08 , PSA 4.0, Biopsy 14 samples 1 positive 12% of sample,
Gleason Score 4+4 =8  Bone scan and MRI negative
Da Vince surgery on Oct 17, 08 Florida Hospital Dr Vipul Patel
Post Gleason report  4+4 = 8 Lymph nodes on both sides negative
margins Negative  Stage II (pt2a) 
Cath out on October 29th left in longer due to small leak.
11/19/08 dry no more pads
12/2/08 first PSA <0.1
 3/6/09 6 Month PSA 0.0
6/3/09 9 month  PSA 0.1
7/14/09  PSA still 0.1
10/15/09 PSA 0.3
10/26/09 surgery to remove 3 clips in bladder neck  
11/16/09 PSA 0.3
12/14/09 PSA 0.4 
12/28/09 PSA 0.5
Start salvage radiation treatments on January 18th. 


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 3/13/2010 10:32 AM (GMT -6)   
Jerry, that's a good example in your particular case. Like I tell people not familiar with cancers in general, the cancer cells don't light up like little LED lights, or there no microscopic dotted line our surgeons are following. Wish it were that simple.

When you end up with recurrance, like we and others have had after surgery, it doesn't mean it was bad surgery or that the surgeon didn't do a top job, it's cancer, and all it takes is a microscopic spec on the other side of even the widest cut, and our ugly cancer friend can return and does in that case.

David in sC
Age: 57, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 7/08 12.3, 9/08 14.5, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 - 7/7 Positive, 40-90% Cancer, Gleason 4+3
Open RP: 11/08, Rht nerves saved, 4 days in hospt, on catheters for 63 days, 5th one out 1/09
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Incontinence:  1 Month     ED:  Non issue at any point post surgery, no problem post SRT
Post Surgery  PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12
Latest: 7/9 met 2 rad. oncl, 7/9 cath #6 - blockage, 8/9 2nd corr surgery, 8/9 cath #7 out 38 days, 9/9 - met 3rd rad. oncl., mapped  9/9, 10/1 - 3rd corr. surgery - SP cath/hard dialation, 10/5 - 11/27 IMRT SRT 39 sess/72 gys ,cath #8 33 days, Cath #9 35 days, 12/7 - Cath #10 43 days, 1/19 - Corr Surgery #4,  Caths #11 and #12  same time, 2/8-Cath #11 out - 21 days, 3/2- Cath #12 out - 41 days, 3/2- Corr Surgery #5, Caths #13 & #14 same time, 3/6 Cath #13 out - 4 days


deer hunter
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 250
   Posted 3/13/2010 1:04 PM (GMT -6)   
Hey guys they told me that you could put 10,000 on the head of a pin so i think they dont' get all of them but they try there best i hope
DEERHUNTER
dx age 57 01/06 open RP 4/06 psa in 01/06 8.1  surgery path report Gleason 3+4=7 poorly differentiated  tumor was 90%involved in both lobes surgical margins postive. in the right apex and right radial margins tumor grade G3  perineural invasion present high grade of PIN found  T2c NX MX PSA 0706  .01 10/06 .02 01/07 .03 04/07 .04  06/07 .05  07/07 .08 07/07 bone scans pelvic ct neg. 08/07 proscintic scan neg.9/07 psa.10 net with rad onc. wanted to do SRT but i did not do it 10/07  saw a new dr at Emory University [my old dr urg. suggested second opinion ]  bone scans negs ct scans pelvics neg. biopies of the bladder and adrinal glands neg.another proscintic scan neg.12/07 Psa .11 clinial trial Emory injected with protons to try and find the cancer cells no luck 3/08 psa .17 06/08 psa .23 psa 09/08 psa .32 12/08 psa .39 3/09 psa .39 6/09 psa .43  meet with medical onc. he said  i might have waited to long to start SRT 7/09 psa .50  another bone scan ct scan all neg.MRI neg. meet rad. onc. 7/09 started casdex 50mg 1 day for 30 days 2 shots of lupron started rad treament 10/09 40 treatments 75 gm 12 shots each time all aroud pelvic finished 12/09  psa .07 and psa 01/10.05 next dr visit 03/10 wait and see!!!!!!


Ed C. (Old67)
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 2460
   Posted 3/13/2010 5:31 PM (GMT -6)   
Thank you Jerry, David and Deerhunter,
My biobsy was similar to Jerry's but my pathology report was worse in that I had EPE while Jerry didn't. So far thank God, my PSA was .004 at the one year mark. I'm hoping for a continuation of that. Jerry, I wish you all good results from your radiation.
Age: 67 at Dx on 12/30/08
PSA 9/05 1.15; 8/06 1.45; 12/07 2.41; 8/08 3.9; 11/08 3.5 free PSA 11%
2 cores out of 12 were positive Gleason (4+4) and (4+5)
Negative CT scan and bone scan done on 1/16
Robotic surgery performed 2/9/09 Dr Fagin, Austin TX
Pathology report:
Prostate weighed 57 grams size:5.2 x 5.0 x 4.9 cm
Posterior lateral lesions measuring 1.5 x 1.4 x 1.0 cm showing focal capsular penetration over a distance of 3mm in circumference.
Prostatic adenocarciroma accounts for approx. 10-20% of the hemisphere.
Gleason 4+4
both nerve bundles removed,
pT3a Nx Mx, Negative margins
seminal vesicles clean, lymph nodes: not dissected
continent after 4 months
8 weeks PSA test 4/7/09 result <0.1
5 months PSA test 7/9/09 result <0.1
8 months PSA test 10/9/09 result <0.1
11.5 months test 1/21/10 result 0.004


Carlos
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 486
   Posted 3/13/2010 8:00 PM (GMT -6)   
Ed,  I hope to goodness it doesn't make any difference.  My last words to my surgeon were "don't worry about sparing my nerve bundles.  At 71, I'm more interested in my next meal than sex".  The first words I heard after surgery, "I spared both bundles".  My surgeon used intra-op path and was fairly certain he had clear margins before he closed.  We can only hope for the best.  Good luck.
 
Carlos

Diagnosed 2/2008 at age 71, Gleason score 5+3=8, stage T1c, PSA 9.1. 
Robotic surgery 5/2008, nerves spared, All margins, SV and lymph nodes negative. 
Staged pT2c, Gleason score 5+3=8.  PSA <0.1 at 20 months, Jan. 4, 2010.


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 3/13/2010 10:34 PM (GMT -6)   
Carlos, there's not a good surgeon in the land that is going to be trying to save the nerve bundles at the expense of possibly leaving cancer behind. So if your surgeon was able to do a good job, and still leave your nerve bundles intact, that is great. You are showing being still a zero at 20 months, and considering you are a Gleason 8, great job. Hope it stays that way for you.

David in SC
Age: 57, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 7/08 12.3, 9/08 14.5, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 - 7/7 Positive, 40-90% Cancer, Gleason 4+3
Open RP: 11/08, Rht nerves saved, 4 days in hospt, on catheters for 63 days, 5th one out 1/09
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Incontinence:  1 Month     ED:  Non issue at any point post surgery, no problem post SRT
Post Surgery  PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12
Latest: 7/9 met 2 rad. oncl, 7/9 cath #6 - blockage, 8/9 2nd corr surgery, 8/9 cath #7 out 38 days, 9/9 - met 3rd rad. oncl., mapped  9/9, 10/1 - 3rd corr. surgery - SP cath/hard dialation, 10/5 - 11/27 IMRT SRT 39 sess/72 gys ,cath #8 33 days, Cath #9 35 days, 12/7 - Cath #10 43 days, 1/19 - Corr Surgery #4,  Caths #11 and #12  same time, 2/8-Cath #11 out - 21 days, 3/2- Cath #12 out - 41 days, 3/2- Corr Surgery #5, Caths #13 & #14 same time, 3/6 Cath #13 out - 4 days

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