Can Semen be tested for PCa

New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> ]

English Alf
Veteran Member


Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 2218
   Posted 3/25/2010 2:27 AM (GMT -6)   
I had a thought in the middle of the night.

It is a query that for me is a bit of a case of closing a stable door after the horse has bolted. Indeed it’s possibly more like looking round the farm to see if there are any stables.

I know that healthy prostate cells produce semen, but what do cancerous prostate cells produce?

If cancerous cells still produce semen is it the same type of semen as that produced by healthy cells or is it different? If it is different is that difference measurable so that it would be possible to use analysis of the composition of semen as a tool for diagnosing Prostate Cancer?

For instance, putting it very simplistically: if good cells produce semen type A and bad cells produce semen type B and a sample could be tested to show it was 90% type A and 10% type B that would surely indicate that 90% of the prostate was healthy and 10% was cancerous. (Though I appreciate that really bad cells might not produce anything at all so that 100% type A might be a false positive)

Have any urologists, pathologists or other cancer scientists etc considered analyzing semen for this purpose? I can find nothing on the web apart from this study which is still only recruiting volunteers:

clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01072513

Alfred

pasayten
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 448
   Posted 3/25/2010 3:07 AM (GMT -6)   
Alfred,
 
I did find a couple of links taking about this,  but nothing further if it has actually been used yet...
 
 
 
 
Will poke around some more...    Would be a lot more comfortable than biopsies!
 
pasayten
 
 


After 3-4 years of annual PSA 4-6, biopsy recommended
3/13/2007 - 12 point biopsy - Left 0/6  Right 1/6 Gleason 3+3 T1c
4/24/2007 - DaVinci performed at Virginia Mason hospital in Seattle
5/2/2007 - Catheter Out! Final pathology of Gleason 6  T2c Nx Mx, approx 20% of prostate involved, positive margin, but only at 2 focal points.  
6/28/2007 9 weeks incontinance... Overnite, went from 4-6 soaked pads a day from prev 8 weeks to 2 barely wet pads a day.
7/12/2007 11 weeks post-op  Minimal leakage...  one small pad a day
7/18/2007 First Post-Op PSA...  0.01 !!! 
9/10/2007 Pad free and ED at 75% with 100mg Viagra generic
6/26/2008 2nd Post-OP PSA at 14 months...  0.02 
12/2/2008 3rd Post-OP PSA at 20 months...   0.03
10/30/2009 4th Post-OP PSA at 31 months...   0.13 (moved and diff lab)
11/3/2009 Retest at my original lab...  0.11  (followup with Doc sched 11/10)
11/10/2009 Discussion indicated biochemical reccurrence and need for salvage radiation treatment. 
1/21/2010 Another PSA test at 34 months...  0.14
1/26/2010 IMRT Salvage Radiation Treatment started
                  32 sessions for 64 gys total.
3/12/2010 Finished 32 sessions...  No side effects to date except a little
tiredness.  Slight changes in bowel movements the last week...   Would feel like I did not empty completely and get a little blood once in a while.  Also maybe aggrivated by a little constipation caused by cholesterol medicine simvastatin that I started in Novenber and when zi do not drink enough water. No change in frequency for bowel or unination though which was a blessing thru the whole process.
 

Post Edited (pasayten) : 3/25/2010 2:22:10 AM (GMT-6)


Worried Guy
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 3742
   Posted 3/25/2010 5:48 AM (GMT -6)   
That is a great idea. It certainly gets to the root of the problem.
Jeff
Married 34 years, DX Age 56. First routine PSA test on April 8, 09: 17.8. Start 2 weeks of Cipro to rule out protatitis. May '09 PSA: 22.6, 3 weeks later: PSA: 23.2.
Biopsy 6/10/09: 7/12 scores positive, 20%-70%, Gleason 6=3+3. Bone and C/T scans neg.
RP DaVinci -7/21/2009 @ Univ of Roch Medical Center
Left nerve gone, right partial spared.
Catheter removed - 7/31/2009 Pathology report received:
Gleason 3+4=7, Tumor size: 2.5 x 1.8 cm, location: both lobes and apex.
Extraprostatic extension present; Perineural invasion: present, extensive.
No Malignancy in Seminal Vesicle, vasa deferentia, lymph nodes 0/13
Prostate mass 56 grams. Pathologic Stage: pT3aN0MX
Post Surgery Status:
Potency - 12/11 5 months, Still no activity, zip. Using pump daily since 11/11. No effect with 20 mg of Cialis or 100 mg of Viagra. Shots next See Uro 1/22/10 Trimix #1. Try 0.08- 25%, 0.12-25%, 2/26/10 try 0.16 First Success! 90%.
Incontinence - 8/20 4 full pads per day
.. 9/7 3-4 full pads per day (Try cutting down on fluids. Bad idea. I know.)
12/11/09 5 months: 3 pads per day, 400-450ml/day
02/26/10 7 months: 3 pads but leak is now 320 ml (5 day avg.)
03/22/10 8 months: 3 pads per day, 280 ml/day (5 day avg.) PT says all muscles are tight and working properly. There must be another issue. Uro mtg 4/23. Did I waste 6 months?
Post Surgery PSA - 9/3 6 weeks - 0.05; 10/13 3 months - 0.04, 1/14 6 months - 0.05.


logoslidat
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 6079
   Posted 3/25/2010 1:37 PM (GMT -6)   
I'm thinking that the cancer cells are only producing more cancer cells, the healthy part of prostate will continue producing semen, which could explain the reduction in semen as we age in some people. but thats right off the top of the top of my head
age 66 First psa 4/17/09 psa 8.3, 7/27/09 psa 8.1
8/12/09 biopsy 6 out of 12 pos 2-70%, rest <5% 3+3
10/19/09 open rrp U of W Medical Center, left bundle spared
10/30/09 catheter out. continent from the jump.
pathology- prostate confined, only thing positive was the report.everything else negative
9% of prostate affected. gleason 3+4, I suppose thats a negative
After reading pathology myself, gleason was 3+4 with tertiary 5, 2-3 foci That is a negative, but I am a positive !!
Ed an issue but keeping the blood flowing with the osbon pump
8 week psa 0,0


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 3/25/2010 1:56 PM (GMT -6)   
For starters, the prostate doesn't produce sperm in the first place, it's mostly making the non-sperm portion of the ejaculate. The testicles are producing the sperm. At ejaculation, the sperm and fluid mix and travel together eventually through and out the urethra. The cowpens gland clears out and pre-lubes the urethra, to make easier passage for the ejaculate.
Age: 57, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 7/08 12.3, 9/08 14.5, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 - 7/7 Positive, 40-90% Cancer, Gleason 4+3
Open RP: 11/08, Rht nerves saved, 4 days in hospt, on catheters for 63 days, 5th one out 1/09
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Incontinence:  1 Month     ED:  Non issue at any point post surgery, no problem post SRT
Post Surgery  PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12
Latest: 7/9 met 2 rad. oncl, 7/9 cath #6 - blockage, 8/9 2nd corr surgery, 8/9 cath #7 out 38 days, 9/9 - met 3rd rad. oncl., mapped  9/9, 10/1 - 3rd corr. surgery - SP cath/hard dialation, 10/5 - 11/27 IMRT SRT 39 sess/72 gys ,cath #8 33 days, Cath #9 35 days, 12/7 - Cath #10 43 days, 1/19 - Corr Surgery #4,  Caths #11 and #12  same time, 2/8-Cath #11 out - 21 days, 3/2- Cath #12 out - 41 days, 3/2- Corr Surgery #5, Caths #13 & #14 same time, 3/6 Cath #13 out - 4 days


Magaboo
Veteran Member


Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 1211
   Posted 3/25/2010 3:33 PM (GMT -6)   
David (Purgatory) is of cause quite correct. However, Alf's idea still seam to hold a valid question, namely, 'is there a detectable difference in ejaculate between those men that have PCa and those that are cancer free?'.
I'm sure the research labs have looked into this obvious question, but I have never heard or read about any conclusions.
 
Magaboo
 

Born Sept 1936
PSA 7.9
-ve DRE
Gleason's Score 3+4=7, 2 of 8 positive
Open RP 28 Nov 06 (nerve sparing), Post op staging T3a
Gleasons still 3+4=7
Seminal vesicles and lymph nodes clear
Catheter out 15 Dec 06, Dry since 11 Feb 07
All PSA tests in 2007 (4) <.04
PSA tests in 2008: Mar.=.04; Jun.=.05; Sept.=.08; 3 days before Rad Start=0.1
Salvage RT completed (33 sessions - 66 Grays) on the 19th Dec., 08.
PSA in Jan., 09=0.05; July 09=<0.04; JAN 10=<0.04


LV-TX
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 966
   Posted 3/25/2010 4:36 PM (GMT -6)   
Interesting idea still the same. Makes you wonder how the urine test works. Complicated stuff that's for sure. At some point down the road a biopsy is going to be considered barbaric and most treatments will border the cruel and the uncivilized practice of medicine.
You are beating back cancer, so hold your head up with dignity
 
Les
 
Age 58 at Diagnosis
Oct 2006 - PSA 2.6 - DRE Normal
May 2008 - PSA 4.6 - DRE Normal / TRUS normal
July 2008 - Biopsy 4 of 12 Positive 5 - 30% Involved Bilateral w/PNI - Gleason (3+3)6 Stage T1C
Robotic Surgery Sept 18, 2008
Pathology October 1, 2008 - Gleason 7 (3+4) Staged pT2c NO MX - Gland 50 cc
Seminal Vesicles and Lymph Nodes clear
Positive Margins Right Posterior Lobe
PSA 5 week Oct 2008 <.05
                   3 month Jan 2009 .06
                   6 month Apr 2009 .06
                   9 month Jul  2009 .08
                 12 month Oct 2009 .09 


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 3/25/2010 5:29 PM (GMT -6)   
Mag, and Alfred, I still think your premise is very interesting. I know so little about anatomy, just wanted to make sure everyone was in agreement how the basic "hardware" works, and in the correct order. This is why men that have vasectomies shoot "blanks". Their prostates are still producing the fluid portion, minus the sperm which no longer can physically reach since they have been snipped.

We who have lost our prostates through surgery, of course no longer produce even the ejaculate fluid, and our paths to the testicles are severed as well, So we shoot dry blanks.

A few, my self being one of them, have quite a bit of pre-ejaculate being produced from the cowpen's gland. But hardly in the scale of a pre-surgery explosion. Sadly, since my SRT has ended, I seemed to have lost that ability, not that it did me any good post surgery. It may or may not return after the full radation effects abates.

Right now, and I am keeping my fingers crossed, the SRT hasn't messed up my lack of ED, or desire. My biggest hangup is often being in to much other pain to want to be real sexually active. But that's another issue.

David in SC
Age: 57, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 7/08 12.3, 9/08 14.5, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 - 7/7 Positive, 40-90% Cancer, Gleason 4+3
Open RP: 11/08, Rht nerves saved, 4 days in hospt, on catheters for 63 days, 5th one out 1/09
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Incontinence:  1 Month     ED:  Non issue at any point post surgery, no problem post SRT
Post Surgery  PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12
Latest: 7/9 met 2 rad. oncl, 7/9 cath #6 - blockage, 8/9 2nd corr surgery, 8/9 cath #7 out 38 days, 9/9 - met 3rd rad. oncl., mapped  9/9, 10/1 - 3rd corr. surgery - SP cath/hard dialation, 10/5 - 11/27 IMRT SRT 39 sess/72 gys ,cath #8 33 days, Cath #9 35 days, 12/7 - Cath #10 43 days, 1/19 - Corr Surgery #4,  Caths #11 and #12  same time, 2/8-Cath #11 out - 21 days, 3/2- Cath #12 out - 41 days, 3/2- Corr Surgery #5, Caths #13 & #14 same time, 3/6 Cath #13 out - 4 days

New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
Forum Information
Currently it is Saturday, September 22, 2018 3:58 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 3,005,633 posts in 329,245 threads.
View Active Threads


Who's Online
This forum has 161790 registered members. Please welcome our newest member, Sachi Rae.
222 Guest(s), 1 Registered Member(s) are currently online.  Details
BOB 46