Do our bowels affect our bladders?

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English Alf
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Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 2216
   Posted 3/31/2010 1:23 PM (GMT -6)   
Mel/Complier has a thread about worsening continence
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=35&m=1761121
I know just what he means but I was having a think about why. My continence is not so much worse as variable and I was wondering about what is going on just inside me.

The pee-regulating part of me that has been altered by the surgery is the area just between the invisible end of my penis and my bladder, which is obviously right next to the rectum.
So are my bladder and its "full/empty" sensors and urethra, plus the pelvic floor muscles and the assorted nerves throughout that area influenced by whether or not my rectum is full or empty or whether the contents are soft or empty or moving around. As my visits to the WC to pee have been different this week, and so have my BMs!

Alfred
Age at Dx 48 No Family history of Prostate Cancer
Married 25 years, and I cannot thank my wife enough for her support.
April 2009: PSA 8.6 DRE: negative. Tumour in 2 out of 12 cores. Gleason 3+3.
RALP (nerve-sparing) at AVL-NKI Hospital Amsterdam on 29th July 2009. Stay 1 night.
Partial erections on while catheter still in. Catheter out on 6th Aug 2009.
Dry at night after catheter came out
Post-op Gleason 3+4. Tumour mainly in left near neck of bladder.
Left Seminal Vesicle invaded, (=T3b!)
no perineraul invasion, no vascular invasion. clear margins,
Erection 100% on 15th Aug 2009, but lots of leaking
Stopped wearing pads on 21st Sept 2009
Pre-op style intercourse on 24th Oct 2009 !! No use of tablets, jabs, VED etc.
Nov 17th 2009 PSA = 0.1
Mar 17th 2010 PSA = 0.4!!! referred to radiation therapist


Steve n Dallas
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 4834
   Posted 3/31/2010 1:27 PM (GMT -6)   
I think your anotomy is off a bit. The rectum is the "exit portal" isn't it and doesn't really hold stuff.
 
The two are unrealated if you ask me...I pee 20 times during the day and I poop once in the morning like clock work.
 
Age 55   - 5'11"   215lbs
Overall Heath Condition - Good
PSA - July 2007 & Jan 2008 -> 1.3
Biopsy - 03/04/08 -> Gleason 6 
06/25/08 - Da Vinci robotic laparoscopy
05/14/09  - 4th Quarter PSA -> less then .01
11/20/09 - 18 Month PSA -> less then .01
Surgeon - Keith A. Waguespack, M.D.


geezer99
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2009
Total Posts : 990
   Posted 3/31/2010 1:35 PM (GMT -6)   
Alf
I think you are correct about your anatomy. Remember that normal intestinal function involves regular contraction and relaxation (peristaltic waves) to move things along. So your bowel has the potential to nudge your bladder. It may be that it is just a matter of time for your bladder to learn to ignore this.
Age at diagnosis 66, PSA 5.5
Biopsy 12/08 12 cores, 8 positive
Gleason 3+4=7
CAT scan, Bone scan 1/09 both negative.

Robotic surgery 03/03/09 Catheter Out 03/08/09
Pathology: Lymph nodes & Seminal vesicles negative
Margins positive, Capsular penetration extensive Gleason 4+3=7
6 weeks: 1 pad/day, 1 pad/night -- mostly dry at night.
10 weeks: no pad at night -- slight leakage day/1 pad.
3 mo. PSA 0.0 - now light pads
6 mo. PSA 0.00 -- 1 light pad/day
9 mo. PSA 0.00 -- 1 light pad/day ED remains


English Alf
Veteran Member


Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 2216
   Posted 3/31/2010 1:49 PM (GMT -6)   
Steve
the anus is the hole,
the rectum is the section of tube about 4 inches long just inside the anus.
The next section further inside you is the Colon which is where the most of the poo collects, so when the poo starts to get into the rectum and fills it up then sensors tell you that it is time to go. I think it is those sensors that have been mucked up.

For years you could set a clock by my BMs too = 08.25!
Now I'm going both more often and at less regular times. (And now the clocks have switched to summer time too which has also mucked up my eating and drinking and therefore my peeing and BM's too.
Alf

goodlife
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2009
Total Posts : 2691
   Posted 3/31/2010 6:08 PM (GMT -6)   
Alf,

Great question. I have found that my bowel habits have changed. I am also more prone to leaking small amounts of poo in my shorts.

I Have attributed some of it to using the same pelvic floor muscles to hold my anus shut, and to hold my bladder shut. When we fart it is not unusual to leak a little as well.

I have not really been able to figure it out. Just hoping time will straighten it out.
Goodlife
 
Age 58, PSA 4.47 Biopsy - 2/12 cores , Gleason 4 + 5 = 9
Da Vinci, Cleveland Clinic  4/14/09   Nerves spared, but carved up a little.
0/23 lymph nodes involved  pT3a NO MX
Catheter and 2 stints in ureters for 2 weeks .
Neg Margins, bladder neck negative
Living the Good Life, cancer free  6 week PSA  <.03
3 month PSA <.01 (different lab)
5 month PSA <.03 (undetectable)
6 Month PSA <.01
1 pad a day, no progress on ED.  Trimix injection
No pads, 1/1/10,  9 month PSA < .01


Ed C. (Old67)
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 2458
   Posted 3/31/2010 7:00 PM (GMT -6)   
Alfred,
I think you are to something here, I seem to hold more urine in my bladder if I have just emptied my colon (pooped). a full colon must pressure the bladder and therefore more trips to the toilet.
Age: 67 at Dx on 12/30/08
PSA 9/05 1.15; 8/06 1.45; 12/07 2.41; 8/08 3.9; 11/08 3.5 free PSA 11%
2 cores out of 12 were positive Gleason (4+4) and (4+5)
Negative CT scan and bone scan done on 1/16
Robotic surgery performed 2/9/09 Dr Fagin, Austin TX
Pathology report:
Prostate weighed 57 grams size:5.2 x 5.0 x 4.9 cm
Posterior lateral lesions measuring 1.5 x 1.4 x 1.0 cm showing focal capsular penetration over a distance of 3mm in circumference.
Prostatic adenocarciroma accounts for approx. 10-20% of the hemisphere.
Gleason 4+4
both nerve bundles removed,
pT3a Nx Mx, Negative margins
seminal vesicles clean, lymph nodes: not dissected
continent after 4 months
8 weeks PSA test 4/7/09 result <0.1
5 months PSA test 7/9/09 result <0.1
8 months PSA test 10/9/09 result <0.1
11.5 months test 1/21/10 result 0.004


deer hunter
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 250
   Posted 3/31/2010 8:23 PM (GMT -6)   
Alfred I sometimes get the urge to pee or i need to poo its hard to tell which one i need to do so i just sit down on the throne and see what happens that doesn't happen all the time just every now and then i think after the prostate is removed things are closer together so one urge may be close to the other one so it tell them both its time so the signal get cross up so it signals for both and the time you sit down it striaghten out thats my opinion ps hopes this helps
DEERHUNTER
dx age 57 01/06 open RP 4/06 psa in 01/06 8.1  surgery path report Gleason 3+4=7 poorly differentiated  tumor was 90%involved in both lobes surgical margins postive. in the right apex and right radial margins tumor grade G3  perineural invasion present high grade of PIN found  T2c NX MX PSA 0706  .01 10/06 .02 01/07 .03 04/07 .04  06/07 .05  07/07 .08 07/07 bone scans pelvic ct neg. 08/07 proscintic scan neg.9/07 psa.10 net with rad onc. wanted to do SRT but i did not do it 10/07  saw a new dr at Emory University [my old dr urg. suggested second opinion ]  bone scans negs ct scans pelvics neg. biopies of the bladder and adrinal glands neg.another proscintic scan neg.12/07 Psa .11 clinial trial Emory injected with protons to try and find the cancer cells no luck 3/08 psa .17 06/08 psa .23 psa 09/08 psa .32 12/08 psa .39 3/09 psa .39 6/09 psa .43  meet with medical onc. he said  i might have waited to long to start SRT 7/09 psa .50  another bone scan ct scan all neg.MRI neg. meet rad. psa the last of 7/09was .55 onc. 7/09 started casdex 50mg 1 day for 30 days 2 shots of lupron started rad treament 10/09 40 treatments 75 gm 12 shots each time all aroud pelvic finished 12/09  psa .07 and psa 01/10.05 next dr visit 03/10 wait and see 3/10 psa.05


compiler
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 7212
   Posted 4/1/2010 12:44 AM (GMT -6)   

I totally agree. My bms have been different in terms of sensation. Much more difficult

 

Mel


63 years old . PSA-- 3/08--2.90; 8/09--4.01; 11/09--4.19 (Free PSA 24%),  after 45 days on cipro! DREs have always been normal. PCA-3 was about 75 (way above the 35 threshold). That led to:

Biopsy on 11/30/09. 5 out of 12 cores positive. Gleason 4+3. 2 cores were 3+3 (one 5% and the other 30%) on one side. On  other side:2 cores are 4+3 (5%)--1 core 3+4 (30%) no peri-neural invasion. prostate is 45 grams. Stage: T1C.  

Surgery with Dr. Menon at Ford Hospital, 1/26/10. He says all looked good. Spared nerves. Unfortunately: Pathology Report: G 4+3 (65%-35%). Cancer in 15% of gland. Lymph Nodes: Clear.  Perineural Invasion: yes. Seminal Vessical Involvement: No.  Extraprostatic Extension: yes.  Positive Margin: Yes-- focal-- 1 spot .5mm. Final Weight is 52.7 gms.  (Second opinion from Jon Epstein at Hopkins confirmed these results)

 Incontinence: joined that club-- definite leaks—1 pad/day. Night is dry, was  using 1 pad at night for security, but pretty much dispensed with that most nights. Update: no pads at night. No pads while at home, but still very uncomfortable. Use 1 pad for out-of-house activities. Suddenly got MUCH better on 3/10/10, almost overnight. Still some urgency but no pads about 90% of the time.  As of 3/12/10--completely continent! Uh...OH. As of about 3/16/10 problems with constant urgency although no pads needed--feels like an infection but none showing in urine.

First post-op PSA on 3/10/10--DRUM ROLL: 0.01 Next PSA in mid-June.


dogbot
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 147
   Posted 4/1/2010 11:20 AM (GMT -6)   
I think the two sensations are connected in some way, as I have definately felt the duel urges since the operation. I also wish I could pass wind without a urine leak, perhaps there is a certain method of doing this now. All the best from England.
Diagnosed February 2009. Gleason 6, Psa 7.2, 12 core biopsy, and then Mri scan, which showed organ specific.
DaVinci at Addenbrookes, Cambridge, England 18th May 2009.  Nerves removed one side.
Catheter in for 8 days, no pain, no post op problems apart from an infection, cleared with antibiotics.
Some aching around the penis, which still occurs.
6 week psa 0.1, post op pathology all good, confirming pre op tests. Ed a problem, no treatment as yet.
Light ladies pad during the day, just to control a slight dampness and a Tena for  men pad at night for occassional leakage.
Awaiting 3 month consultation at the moment.
Sept 09 - still awaiting consultation. 99% dry during the day, tena pad at night just in case.
Sept 18th 09. PSA less than 0.1
Sept 29th follow up consultation at Addenbrookes. Staff happy with progress.
Nov 11th update. One small stress dribble in the last 2 months. Still some muscle stiffness in pelvic area.
March 20th psa less than 0.1 Very occassional stress dribble. No pads for several months.
 

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