Food Supplements..

New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
33 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2 
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> ]

Fairwind
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2010
Total Posts : 3748
   Posted 9/28/2010 11:11 PM (GMT -6)   
Has anyone tried this? Inositol Hexaphosphate or IP-6?

www.cancer.org/Treatment/TreatmentsandSideEffects/ComplementaryandAlternativeMedicine/DietandNutrition/inositol-hexaphosphate

www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69264.cfm
Age 68.
PSA at age 55: 3.5, DRE normal. Advice, "Keep an eye on it".
age 58: 4.5
age 61: 5.2
age 64: 7.5, DRE "Abnormal"
age 65: 8.5, " normal", biopsy, 12 core, negative...
age 66 9.0 "normal", 2ed biopsy, negative, BPH, Proscar
age 67 4.5 DRE "normal"
age 68 7.0 third biopsy positive, 4 out of 12, G-6,7, 9
RRP performed Sept 3 2010, pos margin, one pos vesicle nodes neg

Tony Crispino
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 8128
   Posted 9/28/2010 11:29 PM (GMT -6)   
Fairwind there is very little history or evidence that supplements have any affect on cancer in humans. Often times folks find a study done in a petri dish or lab rats and they start taking the agent they read about not knowing if it is even useful or potentially dangerous. If you see something you want to talk to a doctor about, I would do just that. I always tell members in my support group that what is shown in a study today is very often disproven when a higher quality study is done. I have seen in some cases that not only was a supplement disproven to be effective against cancer, that in fact it was proven to make cancer more aggressive.

Be careful and don't take guesses. I suggest that anyone wanting to see some ideas of supplements that they read any of a few books by Mark Moyad or Snuffy Myers. But that they also understand that taking anything in concentration may adversely affect future treatments such as chemo, hormonal therapies, or even worse, have side effects elsewhere in the body.

Tony
Disease:
Advanced Prostate Cancer at age 44 (I am 48 now)
pT3b,N0,Mx (original PSA was 19.8) EPE, PM, SVI. Gleason 4+3=7

Treatments:
RALP ~ 2/17/2007 at the City of Hope near Los Angeles.
Adjuvant Radiation Therapy ~ IMRT Completed 8/07
Adjuvant Hormone Therapy ~ 28 months on Casodex and Lupron.

Status:
"I beat up this disease and took its lunch money! I am in remission."
I am currently not being treated, but I do have regular oncology visits.
I am the president of an UsTOO chapter in Las Vegas

Blog : www.caringbridge.org/visit/tonycrispino

BuiDoi
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 234
   Posted 9/29/2010 2:20 AM (GMT -6)   

< If you see something you want to talk to a doctor about, I would do just that.>

There are two problems for us all to consider..   

Firstly, NO Doc or UDoc is ever likely to endorse any alternative treatment, because their insurance would not cover them for "Non-Standard Treatment advice", when a partner sues them following the premature death of their partner..

The second problem is that we all face the question - "Do I risk this or follow the standard path".

There are many medical journal reports that suggest that combinations of  OPC's can be (in vitro) as effective in controlling cancer as conventional Chemo.

If one is prepared to read between the lines, then there are actual government comments that confirm the possibility of the alternate treatment..

http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/12354500/Data/ORAC/ORAC_R2.pdf

This paper, clearly suggests the link between Oxidants and Cancer, and lists foods rated for the Oxidant-Reduction capacity.   The bottom line is that anti-oxidants have been shown to assist in controlling cancer, and products such as OPCXtra provide a very good source for such anti-oxidants.

The problem for us is, what level of risk are we prepared to take. ..... If I have a contained PC, and I have an RRP, then I am told that I have a 95% probability of TOTAL cure..   If I embark on consumption of OPC's and a fully healty diet, then what 'guarantee' is there -- NONE ..

When I was diagnosed with PC , I spoke to a friend who was actually controlling a brain cancer, in total contradiction to top specialists. ... .  I too, started to self cure and after 4 months the PSA did start to drop.  BUT - there was still the issue of what risk am I prepared to take... .. . Have an RRP and have 95% chance of full cure, or try self cure and then write a book, if I suceed,.....  OR  - do both --  Have the operation and take the supplements as a means of making that 95% -into-  100%..

I have no hesitation in saying that I would be taking those supplements in addition to any reasonable "Formal Treatment", in a combination that would provide the best QOL... !  I will be doing so, for likely, the rest of my life.

Am I qualified to make these claims -- NO.. .. ..   Do I believe that one can self-cure -- YES..  ..  ..  Would I take the RISK of trying self-cure -- YES, provided that I felt the alternative conventional treatment had less to offer..  ..  .. What supplements would I take - now - that's the $64,000 question.. smhair

<Age 68.
PSA at age 55: 3.5, DRE normal. Advice, "Keep an eye on it".>

This would be the ideal time to get stuck into the alternatives.....

 

 


Full Bloods -- Nov 09 = First-PSA 5.0 @ 60yo - Absolutely NO symptoms - DRE-Non-Palpable
Jan-2010 = TRUS Bx DX - AdenoCar T1c - GS(3+3)=6 , 5 & 45% max., L-MidZone
Jun-2010 = RRP- Nrv-Spare
Post Op. GS(3+4)=7, 1.1cm3, Pos Margins, EPE (focal) Lateral Left
Margin-Involvement (extensive) Posterior , Grade3 x 8mm
+8week PSA <0.01 , Full-ED, Mild Incont
+12W Full-ED, Minimal Incont

Post Edited (BuiDoi) : 9/29/2010 2:23:27 AM (GMT-6)


Mitch128
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 83
   Posted 9/29/2010 4:45 AM (GMT -6)   
< I suggest that anyone wanting to see some ideas of supplements that they read any of a few books by Mark Moyad or Snuffy Myers>

As to Nutritional Supplements, I follow those recommended by Dr. Charles "Snuffy" Myers in his book ""Beating Prostate Cancer: Hormonal Therapy & Diet" which are:

Lcopene - 10 mg with each meal
Selenium - 200 mcgs a day (one microgram is one millionth of a gram)
Vitamin E - 200 IU a day
Fish Oil - 4,000 mg a day
Soy isoflavones - 200 mg a day
Vitamin D3 - 4,000 IU a day (I take 5,000 IU a day because my last blood panel shows 30.5 - "under range")

In addition, I take a Centrum Silver multi-vitamin + 1200 mg of calcium daily. I am considering the Green Tea Extract but need to do some more research before I commit.

Now, it seems, both Selenium and Multi-Vitamins are "under fire". Only thing I can find re: multi-vitamins is taking "too much" without defining "too much" is ng. As to Selenium, reviews are mixed, but Snuffy Myers recommends so not sure what to do.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Mitch

 

 


BB_Fan
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 1011
   Posted 9/29/2010 7:25 AM (GMT -6)   
I recently corresponded with DR Myer on suppilments. He no longer suggests the use of vit E and selenium. He has a video on this, check it out. He replaced them with curcumin and reversterol.

LV-TX
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 966
   Posted 9/29/2010 7:45 AM (GMT -6)   
Supplements have their place...and that is as a supplement only. If your body needs them, then by all means take them. I take several myself, but it is to replace what my own body no longer absorbs naturally. But, be aware, not all supplements are the same. There still is no control over purity or concentrations or even the seed source. If you take supplements, make sure you are getting the proper amount to get the maximum benefit. This is one of those cases where a little can do good, but too much can be dangerous.
You are beating back cancer, so hold your head up with dignity

Les

Signature details in Sticky Post above - page 2

Mitch128
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 83
   Posted 9/29/2010 9:25 AM (GMT -6)   
<I recently corresponded with DR Myer on supplements. He no longer suggests the use of vitamin
 E and selenium. He has a video on this, check it out. He replaced them with curcumin and reversterol>
 
You are correct - info most helpful. Link is here: http://askdrmyers.wordpress.com/
 
Thanks much  smilewinkgrin  
 
Mitch
 
 

Post Edited (Mitch128) : 9/29/2010 9:49:08 AM (GMT-6)


Tony Crispino
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 8128
   Posted 9/29/2010 10:04 AM (GMT -6)   
Mitch,
Dr. Myers stopped suggesting vitamin E and selenium after a carefully controlled study was done that showed that these were in fact useless against prostate cancer, and in that there was indication that the selenium arm in fact had increase in more aggressive cancers. This is one example where the good doctor was in fact off base in suggesting the use of these supplements for prostate cancer.

BuiDoi,
You are not correct in stating "No doc or udoc" will is likely to endorse alternatice treatment". To the contrary most doctors recognize what is missing in your diet if you ask them. But I would go a step further and suggest when you want to talk dietary changes or supplements that you don't go to a urologist, too. Moyad studies alternative and complimentary therapies, for example. Most cancer centers have a nutritionist on staff. All will pretty much tell you to have a heart healthy diet.

Your post is right in sync with my post on the do's and don't of supplementing. Don't believe everything you read. What works in vitro can in fact work in the opposite direction when you apply it to the human body. Supplements are not controlled in product releases for any cure because they are unable to substantiate their claims. That's why in the US, they are violating laws in advertising such claims. I'm not saying that grandma's soup does not make you feel better, I'm saying that one case, one example, one petri dish, one uncontrolled study, is not a recommended path for a good reason.

Peace,

Tony
Disease:
Advanced Prostate Cancer at age 44 (I am 48 now)
pT3b,N0,Mx (original PSA was 19.8) EPE, PM, SVI. Gleason 4+3=7

Treatments:
RALP ~ 2/17/2007 at the City of Hope near Los Angeles.
Adjuvant Radiation Therapy ~ IMRT Completed 8/07
Adjuvant Hormone Therapy ~ 28 months on Casodex and Lupron.

Status:
"I beat up this disease and took its lunch money! I am in remission."
I am currently not being treated, but I do have regular oncology visits.
I am the president of an UsTOO chapter in Las Vegas

Blog : www.caringbridge.org/visit/tonycrispino

John T
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2008
Total Posts : 4227
   Posted 9/29/2010 10:04 AM (GMT -6)   
Tony is right in the fact that most supplements are a waste and there is not enough evidence to prove they are effective. There is a growing body of evidence that diet does affect the growth rate of PC, but there is a ot of disagreement as to what is the best diet, total vegetarian or just a heart healthy diet.
The only supplements I take are Vit D, Potassium, and pomegranite extract.
jt

64 years old.

PSA rising for 10 years to 40, free psa 10-15. Had 5 urologists, 12 biopsies and MRIS all neg. Doctors DXed BPH and continue to get biopsies yearly. 13th biopsy positive in 10-08, 2 cores of 25, G6 less than 5%. Scheduled for surgery as recommended by Urological Oncologist.

2nd Opinion from Dr Sholtz, a Prostate Oncologist, said DX wrong, pathology shows indolant cancer, but psa history indicates large cancer or metastasis. Futher tests and Color Doppler confirmed large transition zone tumor that 13 biopsies and MRIS missed. G7, 4+3, approx 16mmX18mm.

Combidex MRI in Holland eliminated lymphnode mets. Casodex and Proscar reduced psa to 0.6 and prostate from 60mm to 32mm. Changed diet, no meat and dairy. All staging tests indicate that tumor is local and non agressive. (PAP, PCA3, MRIS, Color Doppler, Combidex, tumor reaction to diet and Casodex, and tumor location in transition zone). Surgery a poor option because tumor is located next to the urethea and positive margin is very likely; permanent incontenance is also high probability with surgery.

Seed implants on 5-19-09, 3 hours door to door, no pain, minor side affects are frequency and urgency; very controlable with Flowmax and lasted 4 weeks. Daily activities resumed day after implants with no restrictions. Gold markers implanted with seeds to guide IMRT.

25 treatments of IMRT 6 weeks after seed implants. No side affects at all.

PSA at end of treatment 0.02 mostly the result of Casodex. When I stop Casodex next week expect PSA to rise. Next PSA in November. Treatments and side affects have greatly exceeded my expectations. Glad to have this 11 year journey finally conclude.

JohnT


BuiDoi
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 234
   Posted 9/29/2010 2:30 PM (GMT -6)   
<Dr. Myers stopped suggesting vitamin E and selenium after a carefully controlled study was done that showed that these were in fact useless against prostate cancer,>
 
When I asked about supplements with my first URO, he chuckled in derision and quoted that study as proof that supplements are of no use and only their answer, SURGERY, could offer a proven answer.
 
NOW - Don't get me wrong. I would never advocate a life-threatening "Alternative", but I would question the response to supplements by "Specialists".   "Once Bitten" is perhaps the best comment.  How many may have advocated the C,E,Selenium thing, only to be embarrassed by Dr. Myers et.al.
 
 <there is a degree of disagreement as to what is the best diet, total vegetarian or just a heart healthy diet.
The only supplements I take are Vit D, Potassium, and pomegranate extract.>
 
From all that I have read, I would have to agree with you.   D and K are just common sense. Now you have the Pomegranate, and you are now talking    OPC   and   ORAC  and all this wide field of   claims and uncertainty..  You are touching on a ever widening field of speculation and knowledge.
Just google  OPC  and the dilemma explodes exponentially.
Even two year ago, were you to do this task, you would have struggled to glean information on OPC, save some hype on OPC-3 and Pycnogenol.
Today, the GOOGLE screen explodes with wild claims that OURS is better than THEIRS and HIS could actually cause harm.
OURS could contain just one ingredient, and THEIRS might have just two, but the essential two, and HIS has five different ones in unique combination..
 
Then you have the semi-official imprimatur of Uncle-Sam..  The ORAC analysis of various foods.(Oxygen Radical Absorbance Capacity)
http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/12354500/Data/ORAC/ORAC_R2.pdf
where they say:

The development of many chronic and degenerative diseases, such as cancer (1), heart disease (5), and neuronal degeneration such as Alzheimer’s (4) and Parkinson’s disease (9) has been theorized to be caused, in part, by oxidative stress. Oxidative stress has also been implicated in the process of aging (2). It is known that reactive oxygen species can damage biological molecules such as proteins, lipids, and DNA. While the human body has developed a number of systems to eliminate free radicals from the body, it is not 100% efficient (20).

My speculation is thus, that any food is good for you, but some display an extreme benefit.
Luscious Water-Melon has an  ORAC value of  142, whilst Sorghum, bran, hi-tannin - has a  240,000 value... and Pomegranate has 4479.
Unfortunately the ORAC study does not analyse actual supplement extracts, like your Pomegranate-Extract and my  OPCXtra.

Could you imagine what would happen if  Sorghum,( bran, hi-tannin) was made into an extract ???
 
<He replaced them with curcumin and reversterol.>
Now, we are talking.  OPC's et.al.     The  Myers' door is open !    Go inside and start looking !  turn

In the "Good Book" you will find references to the likes of   "and God gave us herbs to heal with"
Mankind is just starting to discover what was given, and ancient history stumbled upon just some of these, when someone resorted to cooking up Willow-Bark and Pine-Bark, and to their surprise, they found that they felt better after drinking the brew.
Science now seeks to identify  WHY.    If we accept that humble and proven ASPRIN  was found by relative accident, then there is so much more awaiting - trust in the words -- "and God gave us herbs to heal with".
BUT - are you prepared to try that unknown, when that UDoc gives you a 95% guarantee ?

A Surgeon will never give up his massively lucrative Income to a bucket of  Sorghum. nono
..
.

Full Bloods -- Nov 09 = First-PSA 5.0 @ 60yo - Absolutely NO symptoms - DRE-Non-Palpable
Jan-2010 = TRUS Bx DX - AdenoCar T1c - GS(3+3)=6 , 5 & 45% max., L-MidZone
Jun-2010 = RRP- Nrv-Spare
Post Op. GS(3+4)=7, 1.1cm3, Pos Margins, EPE (focal) Lateral Left
Margin-Involvement (extensive) Posterior , Grade3 x 8mm
+8week PSA <0.01 , Full-ED, Mild Incont
+12W Full-ED, Minimal Incont

Post Edited (BuiDoi) : 9/29/2010 2:40:41 PM (GMT-6)


Fairwind
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2010
Total Posts : 3748
   Posted 9/29/2010 2:45 PM (GMT -6)   
I few years ago, health-food stores had bunker displays featuring Saw-Palmetto extracts..You don't see much of that anymore..

Tony Crispino
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 8128
   Posted 9/29/2010 3:13 PM (GMT -6)   
BuiDoi,
You seem focussed on urologists. I might remind you that I have never met a poor doctor of any kind. I think I would suggest to anyone don't go to a foot doctor for a dietary recommendation, too. The same applies to a urologist, radiation oncologist and just about most treating prostate cancer with local therapies.

I would also stay away from ads by supplement makers, and also away from nutritionists whom by the way also frequently own a supplement store.

When it comes to supplementary therapies, they are at best a crap shoot as what works and it's with the odds heavily stacked against you. We saw this week that POM Wonderful is facing charges for over extending their advertising and we'll continue seeing supplement makers frequently pushing the envelope with false claims. And if you think urologists are rich, you should see the amount of money poured into the supplement makers. Billions with a B. And they now place their websites oversees to skirt US advertising laws.

It's a tough call to recommend these supplements to anyone as most of the liability lies with the patient and one doing the recommending. I can see why most docs stay away from it.

Tony

BuiDoi
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 234
   Posted 9/29/2010 5:14 PM (GMT -6)   
<You seem focussed on urologists.>
 
I think that we are in agreement..  The issue for us with PC and related issues , is that we seek primary advice from the specialists, and as I commented upon elsewhere,  No Uro will recomment an alternate treatment, as his insurance will not cover it.  So - don't seek comment on alternatives from a Uro..  You WILL find the occasional GP who has strong thoughts, like Dr. Meyers.
 
So, as you say, we end up in the Crap-shoot game trying to find supplements that help (might help)

<I would also stay away from ads by supplement makers>
These are automatically bypassed, in preference to the actual medical journals and scientific papers that have the power to suggest benefits as a result of their findings.

<It's a tough call to recommend these supplements to anyone as most of the liability lies with the patient and one doing the recommending. >
That is why no one will ever say  "It Will..."  and they say  "It Might.."  or  "It may be shown.."
I understand that under the FDA, the moment you make a claim, you can then be legally required to prove it, at your cost.
For this reason, all we poor mortals can do is to read between the lines of the scientific papers and try and interpret how it would affect US as individuals.
 
BUT -- there are more and more real and scientific papers providing the links and the hints of what might actually work.  As sufferers and survivors, I am sure that we each seek the best solution to our concerns.
I have proven in my opinion, that I now show distinct general improvements in some minor ailments, after taking OPC's.   I have seen the results on a brain-cancer from taking the same material.  I think that I can interpret the general threads of the official scientific papers, and at least enough to recognise that there is potential benefit.
 
As to rejecting conventional therapy - that is a tough call, and one that the individual needs to consider.  I tried, but chickened out, because the conventional therapy offered 95% guarantee..  That was a rational decision.
Now - I use the alternatives, to try and ensure that there is no return !
..
 
 
Full Bloods -- Nov 09 = First-PSA 5.0 @ 60yo - Absolutely NO symptoms - DRE-Non-Palpable
Jan-2010 = TRUS Bx DX - AdenoCar T1c - GS(3+3)=6 , 5 & 45% max., L-MidZone
Jun-2010 = RRP- Nrv-Spare
Post Op. GS(3+4)=7, 1.1cm3, Pos Margins, EPE (focal) Lateral Left
Margin-Involvement (extensive) Posterior , Grade3 x 8mm
+8week PSA <0.01 , Full-ED, Mild Incont
+12W Full-ED, Minimal Incont

mr bill
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2010
Total Posts : 688
   Posted 9/29/2010 7:12 PM (GMT -6)   
What kind of foods are recommended? No meat, lots of fruit, cooked veggies, fish?
Age 66
BPH since 2000. at least three negative biopsies Erie. Uro did not prescribe finasteride
2007 acute urine retention photoselective vaporize Clev. Clinic
8-9-10 Aug PSA rose to 10.14 with finasteride positive biopsy Cleveland gleason 9, cat & bone scan negative
9-8-10 Robotic prostatectomy at Cleveland. B iopsy 9 nodes, 2 positive,seminal & vas deferens positive invasive adenocarc

Fairwind
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2010
Total Posts : 3748
   Posted 9/29/2010 7:40 PM (GMT -6)   
Lets everyone post all the supplements and whole foods they are taking!! What fun!

Green Tea, Selenium, Vitamin D3, IP-6, fresh raspberries, Omega 3 fish oil, 3 fish meals a week, lots of fresh greens..

Beer, chips, Brie cheese...

Red Nighthawk
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 289
   Posted 9/29/2010 8:21 PM (GMT -6)   
BuiDoi, I believe you are on to something and I totaly am empathetic to your decision. I made a similar decision one year ago, but I'm leaning toward the holistic approach post op.

Fairwind: Two full glasses of water when I awake. Then Stealcut (old fashioned) oatmeal with flaxseed, blueberries, and nuts for breakfast. Plus one mug of coffee. Supper is usually homemade tomato sauce (it's real thick) with many added (homegrown) vegetables. Sometimes I'll add some fish. Throughout the day, I drink blueberry smooties, made with blueberries, bannanas, soy milk, tea, cinnamon. Beer also of course. Supplements: 1000 IU Vit D, One A Day multivitamin, 1 baby aspirin. I know: borrrrrrring!
Age: 63
Gleason grade: 3+4=7, present in both lobes, pT2c NX MX
Robotic RP: Sept. 15th, 2009
PSA's: .04, .03, .02, .05, .02
ED: Improvement slow but there are positive signs. No incontinent issues.
Surgery: Dr. Jim Hu. Dana-Farber/Brigham and Women's, Boston

NEIrish
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 245
   Posted 9/29/2010 9:38 PM (GMT -6)   
Docs and researchers are still openminded about supplements and their effects on cancer cells. Dana Farber (where we had a consult) asked my husband to enroll in a study testing fish oil supplements.("Protocol title: Prostate Cancer Prevention by N-3 Unsaturated Fatty Acids") The group not using the fish oils would be taking corn oil. Not good press on that stuff lately. We opted out of that one. However, I'm a big believer in ground flax seed (NOT the pure oil) as a daily addition to my husband's diet.
Husband 60yrs., no symptms: PSA 10/04 2.73, 12/06 3.64, 5/09 3.9, 10/09 4.6, 1/10 5.0w/ free PSA 24
6 core biop 4/1/10 path rept: rt mid: adnocarc. G=3+3, 5% of core; R apx v. susp. minute ca, R base bnign w/ mod. atrophy, L side atrphy only; 2nd opnion JH confrmd
MRI - 15mm nodule
BiLatRP surg 7/6/10, path: T2c, nodes, sem.ves, extra caps. neg., adenoc both sides G=3+3 cntinent, Viagr-8/27 ED

BuiDoi
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 234
   Posted 9/30/2010 1:10 AM (GMT -6)   

.

This whole thing of food supplements is so open to abuse..  The supplements with the wildest claims, invariably have the highest cost..  and - how common is it that so called "Professionals" tout the benefits of supplements and then offer you "Their" special brand, at the bottom of the page.  Those that survivce cancer by alternative-means, write books about it..  The greater majority, never get to write about it, let alone write a book...  There are big supplement organisations that juggle the ingredients of supplements into various combinations and sell each as having the same benefit.  They want you to take ALL five, where just one would do much the same job.

We are all is various stages of desperation.   Some desperate to avoid getting cut at any cost, through to grasping at life itself, or, (like me) trying to ensure that nothing comes back.. .. . are those in the supplements industry opportunistic crooks (in most cases).. OR - are Some there to help.. .. Which WILL work, is the truly great unknown..


There is a product widely advertised over here called "Nature Bee" - just flower pollen - and it is said that it will cure almost anything..  The only problem is that I cannot find ONE reference in a medical journal etc. that it even exists, but there are many agents touting it's unproven virtues, and thousands are convinced of it's value..  Being a plant  "Food"  I would have little doubt that it will have some of the Bioflavanoid/OPC values of many other foods... ..  but just consider that according to the US-Govt  ARS,  Water-Melon has an ORAC value of (142) and "Sorghum, bran, hi-tannin" has a value of (240,000) as compared to Grapes having (1,800) odd, and Curcumin (Tumeric) (127,000).   Foods that might taste well, might have little health benefit !  I suspect that Sorghum likely tastes wretched, but what a punch it carries.

So we have dramatically similar claims for these thingos they call OPC's, but, with increasing confidence, the scientists and cancer technologists are talking about them, but they still have not committed to anything.  Clinicians talk  and marvel (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18663730) about the chemical ways that it kills cancer in the same manner as conventional Chemo does, and then add - without ANY side effects.  University reports call for wide spread trials.  Govt. Departments measure the effects.
So - science has discovered that there is some fact behind the smoke and mirrors, and the ancient indian herbal cures. 
Just start BINGing  OPC and look for hits with  .gov  and you will find the heavily guarded observations  ---  but will industry spend the bucks to do the formal studies - NO WAY.
Because it is totally unpatentable, and is so very cheap, that THEY could never recoup their costs etc.

But wait - how can it be, that simple food extracts can influence everything from hair-loss and macular-Degeneration, to diabetes and cancer, arthritis and Crones disease and cholesterol etc. etc.etc. -- Because it makes your own immune system work better.  and many other physiological effects.

Like all others, I sat and thought hard for a time after hearing  "Lad - You have CANCER ".
As a technical person, I decided that if you can develop cancer, then you can KILL cancer  -- skull - and having seen a GP who specialised in Natural Health, we chose to give it a go.  No red meat - all fresh vegies - LOTS of Fish (we love fish anyway) - and Supplements - those that we could afford..  But only those that were commented upon in official journals, not "Supplement Catalogues".   AND - Chia Seed, every day...

The problem for me - too many of my doctor friends said WHY?? - Why would you gamble when you are offered a 95% chance to win - the other way -- the conventional way..! . ....   So as I said - I got cut, and I am here and will live with the aftermath for the rest of my life

Since being cut, I do admit that the old red-meat is back in controlled amounts. We do try to  eat a balanced and "Organic" diet, and we religiously have two serves of OPCXtra every AM, as the sun rises.  ..  .. 
If a brain tumor (Mobile phone cancer) can be reduced from 19mm to 7mm with OPC alone in 12 mths, then something MUST be working for my friend who was told that he would be dead in 12mths, without a radical operation that he was also told, could leave him deaf, blind and unable to talk or eat, if the nerves to the head were damaged during surgery. 
He discovered the cancer when he went deaf over-night (one ear) when the nerve was eroded by the cancer.

Read about the French and the Mediterranean diets and how they have fewer heart and cancer problems etc. etc. and note the reference to OPC in those diets. 

Read about  Resveratrol, and OPC (Oligomeric Proanthocyanidins), and Pycnogenol, and Curcumin.. .... .. Note the claims by sales agencies, and heed the highly guarded comments by the Universities and Professional Organisations etc.

I am convinced that there is more to be gained than to be lost, but like with drinking - all in moderation. .. .. Take a risk only when there is nothing to lose. 

Would I be prepared to take a risk by participating in a double-blind test of a health supplement.. No Way...  This little black duck only has one chance at life..  Risking it on a placebo, is far greater than dedication.

.


Full Bloods -- Nov 09 = First-PSA 5.0 @ 60yo - Absolutely NO symptoms - DRE-Non-Palpable
Jan-2010 = TRUS Bx DX - AdenoCar T1c - GS(3+3)=6 , 5 & 45% max., L-MidZone
Jun-2010 = RRP- Nrv-Spare
Post Op. GS(3+4)=7, 1.1cm3, Pos Margins, EPE (focal) Lateral Left
Margin-Involvement (extensive) Posterior , Grade3 x 8mm
+8week PSA <0.01 , Full-ED, Mild Incont
+12W Full-ED, Minimal Incont

Post Edited (BuiDoi) : 9/30/2010 1:22:21 AM (GMT-6)


BuiDoi
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 234
   Posted 9/30/2010 1:30 AM (GMT -6)   
NEIrish - <R base bnign w/ mod. atrophy, L side atrophy only;>

How interesting -- I understand that this is saying that there was "Dead" cancer.. I would wonder what Killed it ?

Post Edited (BuiDoi) : 9/30/2010 1:33:45 AM (GMT-6)


NEIrish
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 245
   Posted 9/30/2010 8:27 AM (GMT -6)   
Bui: We were so focused on the adenocarcinoma areas of his path report that we paid little or no attention to the atrophy find.  All I knew was from a cursory scan of the site below was that prostatic atrophy is known as a "benign mimicker" of adenoc. - another reason for a second opinion on the biop slides.  I'm including the link (hope it works here) and perhaps someone here can break it down to layman's language.   The surgeon shrugged off questions on his RP path report with a comment "who can understand those things" - really ticked me off, but it was at our first post-op appointment and there was so much more going on then that we had no time or energy to address it. 
 
 

mr bill
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2010
Total Posts : 688
   Posted 9/30/2010 10:14 AM (GMT -6)   
My wife, as result of food allergies and migraines, has always been one to watch her diet, take suppements, and has always made me a part of that.  However, I have slipped over the years.  Now, as a result of diagnosis I am changing my diet, not without slip ups.  Taking d3, multivitamin, sellenium. Trying to eat a lot ot tomatoes, even though a heavy tomato sauce is supposed to be better. Oatmeal with soy milk or orange juice instead of milk for breakfast, occasionally an egg, water (even though I often forget), soup for lunch, some type of fish (not Lake Erie Perch) a couple times a week, even switching to wife's soy milk, and her healthier diet.  Taking a lot of her advice now.
 
If you really want to try something try cranberry juice that has no additives, such as white grape or apple juice. Cranberry juice is supposed to be natures remedy for bladder infections, colds, other infections.  We have been using it for many years. Long before the TV ads.  If you want a good brand we use Knudson's Just Cranberry. Rather expensive, but pure.
 
I slipped on way back from Clinic yesterday and had a serving of fried scrapple with syrup. 
 
However, even the farm raised fish scre you when you find out they may have PCBs' in their feed.
 
We can only do the best we can.  I guess the Miliken diet was devised by David? Milliken who was diagnosed with PC at age 47.
 
Age 66
BPH since 2000. at least three negative biopsies Erie. Uro did not prescribe finasteride
2007 acute urine retention photoselective vaporize Clev. Clinic
8-9-10 Aug PSA rose to 10.14 with finasteride positive biopsy Cleveland gleason 9, cat & bone scan negative
9-8-10 Robotic prostatectomy at Cleveland. B iopsy 9 nodes, 2 positive,seminal & vas deferens positive invasive adenocarc

Postop
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2010
Total Posts : 385
   Posted 9/30/2010 6:06 PM (GMT -6)   
There are lot of things said about supplements and nutrition as related to health, that range from unfounded, to silly, to just plain wrong. There is an assumption that if you read something about a supplement, that there must be some evidence that it works, and that it's all natural stuff, anyway, so where is the harm? Besides, it's nice to decide yourself what to take, rather than having some doctor telling you what to do, isn't it?

Personally, I wouldn't medicate myself with any substance without proof that it's safe and effective. Take the example of Vitamin E, touted for years as a way to prevent Alzheimer's disease or slow its progression (not to mention all the people who recommended it for prostate cancer). There were actually studies done on this, some evidence, but the studies were small, and uncontrolled, and it's really difficult to conclusively prove or disprove a small slowing of progression of Alzheimer's disease. But wait! Someone did a meta-analysis--this means combining the data from several studies and re-analyzing it to get larger numbers in the study. When this was done, there was no benefit from Vitamin E for Alzheimer's disease. Still not conclusive, because it's not a randomized controlled study. But there is more! The subjects getting Vitamin E had a higher death rate:

"Recent meta-analysis results suggest that doses of vitamin E > or =400 IU daily for more than one year are associated with increased all-cause mortality. Mega-trial results suggest that vitamin E doses > or =400 IU daily for 6.9 years in patients with preexisting vascular disease or diabetes mellitus increase the incidence of heart failure, with no other outcome benefits noted."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16227450

So, my philosophy is, buyer beware. Just because a friend of mine takes something from the health food store, or some "expert" says something on his website or in his newsletter or book, it doesn't mean that it's safe and effective. Without proof of those two things, it ain't going in my mouth.

So, what do I do for health? Lots of fruits and vegetables, not too much meat, as much outdoor exercise as I can get in. I'm fortunate not to need any prescription medication. No pills, supplements, no vitamin or mineral pills, nothing. People with iron or vitamin deficiencies should correct them. Women who may get pregnant need to take folate. Want me to take something? Show me the evidence.

BB_Fan
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 1011
   Posted 9/30/2010 6:37 PM (GMT -6)   
I guy that I worked for early in my career had a great saying. When we made presentations to him suggesting certain investmemts he would say that "if you torture data long enough it will tell you anything that you want to know". I think that is what we see in a lot of these studies. However, having said that many of us are not in a position to wait until there is absolute prove that a suppliment is effective in delaying the progression on PCa. Many of us accept and take vit D and pomegranate extract. We all do our research and decide what we want to try.
Dx PCa Dec 2008 at 56, PSA 3.4
Biopsy: T1c, Geason 7 (3+4) - 8 cores, 4 positive, 30% of all 4 cores.
Robotic Surgery March 2009 Hartford Hospital, Dr Wagner
Pathology Report: T2c, Geason 8, organ confined, negitive margins, lymph nodes negitive - tumor volume 9%, nerves spared, no negitive side effects of surgery.
PSA's < .01, .01, .07, .28, .50. HT 5/10. IMRT 9/10.
PSA's post HT .01, < .01

F8
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2010
Total Posts : 3804
   Posted 9/30/2010 6:45 PM (GMT -6)   

-- multi vitamin

-- 1000 mg pomegranate Pill (Pom)

-- calcium supplement

ed


age: 55
PSA on 12/09: 6.8
no symptoms, no prostate enlargement
12/12 cores positive....gleason 3+4 = 7
HT, BT and IGRT
received 3rd and last lupron shot 9/14/10

BuiDoi
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 234
   Posted 9/30/2010 8:53 PM (GMT -6)   
PS - It is coincidental that last night, there was a presentation on a current-affairs program.
They spoke of "Super Foods" that heal and help.
 
Some weeks ago they highlighted the Mediterranean diet pill, and months ago - the French Paradox.
In between they highlighted the "Fountain of Youth" pill.
 
The COMMON thread in every presentation, was "Anti-Oxidants" /  OPC's etc..   The difference seems to be that oh so many fields are converging on this one issue, that of Anti-Oxidants (OPC's).  ..  .. So, as poor motrals, we are faced with the wild claims of the supplement marketers, and the new contradictions of the likes of VitE/Selenium.
 
< There is an assumption that if you read something about a supplement, that there must be some evidence that it works, and that it's all natural stuff, anyway, so where is the harm?.......So, what do I do for health? Lots of fruits and vegetables, not too much meat, ....... No pills, supplements, no vitamin or mineral pills, nothing.>
It was not that many years ago that the word  CANCER  was an effective death sentence.  There is no proof that ANY supplement will really help, but I suspect that there will never be any real proof , as pressented by a double-blind test, as who, facing death from cancer, would agree to take what might be the placebo.   What medical organisation would even attempt such a life threatening experiment.
 
< Many of us accept and take vit D and pomegranate extract. We all do our research and decide what we want to try.>
Most us us are finally accepting the fact that VitD is just so vital to most bodily functions.  In reality, by taking Pomegranate, you are accepting a single sub-set of OPC's as being of potential benefit, or otherwise you would not take it.
 
<The surgeon shrugged off questions on his RP path report with a comment "who can understand those things">
I had a similar response from a UDoc whilst he had a full Medical-Report (technical) of how OPC's killed cancer (in vitro), he said that it "Could not work".  So we have cancer clinics saying one thing and Surgeons saying another.  Cutters cut, researchers-research..  
When YOU are the one with CANCER, then I know which one I would be listening too if I wish to extend MY life..
 
It's a fascinating field of study, and all that we mugs can do is to listen to the many opinions, and look for a common thread.
 
<We were so focused on the adenocarcinoma areas of his path report that we paid little or no attention to the atrophy find.>
Atrophy is also the word used by researchers, to describe DEAD cancer.  I don't think that the word appears on Path-reports too often, because CANCER rarely regresses by itself.  One would think that something caused the cancer to atrophise (is that the word?).  BUT - then returned ??
 
<I wouldn't medicate myself with any substance without proof that it's safe and effective.>
The thing that I find most challenging and interesting, is the number of people who make this observation, and declare that THEIR diet is the best and most pure, and  THEY TOO , end up with CANCER.
So - if the most basic and pure of diets cannot offer a guarantee of protection, and there is no true proof that these magic Supplements do any good or any harm, then why would one who is keen on extending a now troubled life, not consider a gamble..?  
 
Google   Neuwirt opc prostate cancer  and read between the lines, which is all you can do when you are dumb like me.  When you dig and dig, you come across more and more of these papers, giving hope and demanding research, which will never come, because there will NEVER be a profit in proving that ANY supplement works.  ..  It will remain in the realms of University Medical research.  This little black duck aint gona ignore what researchers say.. just so my family can read the headstone saying  "Nothing harmfull, passed his lips"
 
.. And then there is your Government... giving hints on what is good in fighting problems, and more importantly  WHY...
If you would like a copy of the full paper (by Neuwirt) , just email me    peterra2(at)gmail.com
.
.
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
33 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2 
Forum Information
Currently it is Saturday, June 23, 2018 4:07 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 2,974,579 posts in 326,193 threads.
View Active Threads


Who's Online
This forum has 161290 registered members. Please welcome our newest member, pedroparker.
392 Guest(s), 5 Registered Member(s) are currently online.  Details
Balladeer, CuriousCharles, RobertC, Stan1961, RobLee