Vitamin D Update

New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> ]

BB_Fan
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 1011
   Posted 10/30/2010 1:33 PM (GMT -6)   
This is a follow-up to a thread we had about a month ago about vit D3 suppilments. I have been taking  5000 ui daily since about 8/1. When I mentioned this to my radiation oncologist she became very concerned and suggested strongly that I cut back to 2,000 ui. I continued to take 5,000 and just had my vit D levels tested again. I went from 54  to 58. Perhaps I am just not absorbing the stuff. Is anyone having more success in boosting there vit D levels?

ChrisR
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 825
   Posted 10/30/2010 3:43 PM (GMT -6)   
I am trying to do the same thing. I am taking 2,000 up from 1,000/day. My levels barely rose after I started taking them as well. The main problem with suppliments as I understand is that you can O.D. on the vitamin. Your body evidently knows that when your vitamin D level gets high enough in your blood to stop making it from the sun. That is why you don't O.D. from being in the sun all day. If you just take Vitamin D you can put too much in your blood stream. At least that the way I understand it.

Evidently you can get 10,000 IU from just 30 min. in the sun. I am trying to get my level up from 28.
Dx 42
Gleason 6 (tertiary score 0)

open RP 10/08 Johns Hopkins

pT2 Organ confined Gleason 6

PSA
10/15/2009 <.1
10/15/2010 <0.03
10/15/2011 -

142
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 6949
   Posted 10/30/2010 3:58 PM (GMT -6)   
I got my vit-D tested - can't tell how much it cost, as the bill went to the insurance co., and they did their thing, but it was just a Vit-D, PSA, and normal blood work - billed out at over $700.
 
I was already taking a 1000 pill daily. Came out just below the bottom of the suggested D range, optimal being 30-100. Adding one more 1000 pill - the doc was not pleased, but said we would try just one more for now.
 
He was adamant that I not take any more than was really needed.
 
Your 54 looks fine according to the ranges I was given.
 
BTW - "Toxic" was listed as 100 NG/ML.

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25380
   Posted 10/30/2010 4:10 PM (GMT -6)   
bb and 142,

i don't understand. why are you both not listening to your doctors, and taking such large doses? if you can get 10,000 units from 10 mins in the sun, why not just do it the natural way. since i have been recovering, my wife has me sit on our back deck in the sun for 10-15 mins per day, and by nature, not a sun person.

probably why both your dr's aren't happy. i guess i dont understand all the empathis on vit d.

david
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10

Sephie
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2008
Total Posts : 1804
   Posted 10/30/2010 6:02 PM (GMT -6)   
BB, your doctor is right to be concerned about your intake of 5,000 units of D each day. According to Dr. Mercola's website:

Are Oral Vitamin D Supplements Your Best Choice?

Many experts would disagree with me about this, but after reviewing the evidence and having personally overdosed on vitamin D, I am convinced that although you can clearly get some benefit from oral vitamin D, it is NOT your best choice -- it is simply too easy to overdose.

The major danger of overdosing on vitamin D is that there are no symptoms, just like most with high blood pressure; you frequently don't have symptoms until it is too late. Once you overdose on vitamin D, there is no simple way to treat it other than time, and complete avoidance of vitamin D. Another danger of overdosing on vitamin D is that it will cause nearly similar complications as underdosing.

An overdose of oral vitamin D can cause a number of serious problems, including:

* Vomiting
* Constipation
* Weight loss
* Kidney failure
* Calcification of the arteries

Even with this approach, it may take many months to normalize your levels from elevated levels due to taking ORAL vitamin D.

However, this simply does not happen when you use the sun as a source of vitamin D, because your body has a built-in “feedback loop” that automatically prevents overproduction of vitamin D.

TaurusBull
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 91
   Posted 10/30/2010 6:15 PM (GMT -6)   
Suppose you live in an area that doesn't get much sun, or you work from sunrise to sunset in an office environment where you do not have the opportunity to get the sun exposure. What then, is the recommended dosage of oral D3?

Thanks!
Dx: in 6/2005 age 49, PSA 4.1, 2/10 cores pos, G6, T1c
bone scan: negative
daVinci RRP 8/2005, Hartford Hospital
Post-surgery upgraded G7 (3+4), pT2c, NX,MX, neg. margins, PNI present, tumor focally invades capsule wall, but not entirely through it.
PSA <0.1 until 4th yr post surgery, then 7/2009 0.1, 10/2009 0.2, 1/2010 0.2, 2/2010 0.14, 4/2010 0.16,
8/2010 0.25, 9/2010 0.23

erbob
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 281
   Posted 10/30/2010 6:16 PM (GMT -6)   
David said, "if you can get 10,000 units from 10 mins in the sun, why not just do it the natural way".

I'm glad the subject of vitamin D has been brought up. My Doc just told me recently that I am deficient in Vit D. Just today, I was wondering HOW MUCH of your body must be exposed to the sun to receive the required amount - you face alone, your hands, arms, bare back or what portion of your body. Anyone care to enlighten me on this requirement?? Here in southern Colorado, we do get a lot of intense sun shine and can easily get burned if precautions are not taken.

142
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 6949
   Posted 10/30/2010 6:30 PM (GMT -6)   
David,
 
My doc was not happy because my level was so low even with taking a 1000 pill every day for months. He wanted it to be higher.
 
I can not go out in the sun much - have other issues (colon) that put me on a lifetime of antibiotics that make me burn severely (blisters) in only 10-15 minutes of mid-day summer sun as a side effect. Add on the sensitivity that RT adds. When I go out for my walk at mid-day, it is long sleeved shirt, long track pants, hat, and very dark sunglasses. When they told to to walk often after surgery, it was problematic from the start.
 
My doc was not happy that I was doing poorly, not that I was going "AMA" (I'm not).

BB_Fan
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 1011
   Posted 10/30/2010 7:30 PM (GMT -6)   
I want to get my vit d level to 65-70, not anywhere near 100. I did get a lot of sun in August and September in addition to the suppliments, but can seem to get it higher. I get my vit d tested every month with my PSA, so I am monitoring closely and I am not worried about overdosing. I don't understand why it isn't going up more. I don't drink milk, but do eat a lot of fish.
Dx PCa Dec 2008 at 56, PSA 3.4
Biopsy: T1c, Geason 7 (3+4) - 8 cores, 4 positive, 30% of all 4 cores.
Robotic Surgery March 2009 Hartford Hospital, Dr Wagner
Pathology Report: T2c, Geason 8, organ confined, negitive margins, lymph nodes negitive - tumor volume 9%, nerves spared, no negitive side effects of surgery.
PSA's < .01, .01, .07, .28, .50. HT 5/10. IMRT 9/10.
PSA's post HT .01, < .01

Carlos
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 486
   Posted 10/31/2010 6:50 AM (GMT -6)   
erbob asked about vit. D and sun exposure.  The NIH has a good fact sheet about Vit. D at this link: http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitamind/.  This is what they have to say about getting enough sun:
 
"The factors that affect UV radiation exposure and research to date on the amount of sun exposure needed to maintain adequate vitamin D levels make it difficult to provide general guidelines. It has been suggested by some vitamin D researchers, for example, that approximately 5-30 minutes of sun exposure between 10 AM and 3 PM at least twice a week to the face, arms, legs, or back without sunscreen usually lead to sufficient vitamin D synthesis and that the moderate use of commercial tanning beds that emit 2%-6% UVB radiation is also effective [10,33]. Individuals with limited sun exposure need to include good sources of vitamin D in their diet or take a supplement"
 
They also suggest that you may not be able to get enough vitamin D from the sun throughout the year unless you live in latitudes below 34 degrees north.  Hope this helps.
 
Carlos
 
 

Diagnosed 2/2008 at age 71, PSA 9.1, Gleason score 5+3, stage T1c.
Robotic surgery 5/2008, LFPF at 6 wks.,nerves spared, stg. pT2c, N0, MX, R0, Gleason 5+3
PSA <0.1 at 26 months and at all tests since surgery.

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25380
   Posted 10/31/2010 6:58 AM (GMT -6)   
carlos, good post. this is why my wife, a nurse, is having me spend about 10 mins or so each day sitting in the sun on our back deck. i am not a sun person, i burn easy, and have spent a lifetime of avoiding direct exposure to the sun. perhaps why i dont have any wrinkles at age 58.

i m still asking the question: why all the emphasis on vit d? that's the part i still dont understand.
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10

Sephie
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2008
Total Posts : 1804
   Posted 10/31/2010 7:19 AM (GMT -6)   
David, in answer to your question about why all the hoopla over vitamin D3, research indicates that low levels can contribute to certain diseases - cancer is one of them. The general population in the U.S. is thought to be deficient. This deficiency apparently comes from lack of sun exposure due to the rise in incidence of skin cancers. What folks don't realize about sun exposure and vitamin D is that you only need a few minutes a couple of times a week of sun to stimulate the body's production of D3...not hours laying on a beach.

My regular MD and ob/gyn check my D3 levels every year because of the risk of osteoporosis in post menopausal women (due to lower levels of estrogen). Taking a calcium supplement without vitamin D is useless as it's the D that helps bones absorb the calcium.

The jury is still out about how much to take but I can tell you that both my doctors say take 1,000 units of vitamin D3 each day. This is in addition to the D3 found in my daily multi-vitamin and in the calcium supplement I take which likely brings my daily intake of D3 closer to 2,000 IUs each day. As a smoker, I have to step outside my office when I want to smoke so I do get my daily exposure to sun...guess this is the upside of being a smoker (LOL!).

Years ago, John's doctor said to us "Americans are sicker now than they ever were...the difference between then and now is that we have better bandaids." Perhaps some see vitamin D3 as one of those bandaids. Frankly, as I've stated before, our bodies are so bombarded with free radicals through our environment that the amounts of vitamins and minerals we would need to absorb daily to counteract the effects would be staggering.

On the positive side, though, John's cholesterol was up quite a bit at his last physical. Before putting him on a statin drug, his doctor suggested fish oil, red yeast rice and an over-the-counter supplement called CholestOff. Without any major diet modification, John's lipid profile improved considerably. So, maybe there's something in taking supplements for certain conditions.

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25380
   Posted 10/31/2010 11:04 AM (GMT -6)   
thanks, sephie, a good answer to my question.

all i am taking, per my dr request, is a daily multi vitamin and now, a cranberry juice pill. my uro insisted i either drink the juice, which i cant stand the taste, or take the pill form, said it will really cut down on future UTI. after what i went through recently, i am taking the pill form.

david
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10

Sephie
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2008
Total Posts : 1804
   Posted 10/31/2010 12:02 PM (GMT -6)   
David, a good daily multi-vitamin is needed by most as we simply don't get the nutrients we need.

The cranberry juice is good for the urinary system as it changes the PH levels in urine which combats UTIs. Not to mention that cranberry juice gives you as much vitamin C as orange juice which is good for the immune system. If you can somehow manage to stomach the juice it would be better than the pill but, the pill is better than nothing.

Hope you're doing well, my dear friend.

142
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 6949
   Posted 10/31/2010 12:10 PM (GMT -6)   
David,
 
The GP has me on (now) 2 vit-d (1000 IU) taken one each at morning/evening for the next three months, then we test again. He does not suggest the multi-vitamins unless there is a specific reason for them (and of course a lot of people may need them).  I had added the vit-d test on the last bloodwork after all the hoopla just to see what mine was, and bang - came back "insufficient". As little sun as I'm able to get, I was not surprised.
 
I am also taking the Cranberry extract pill, which also has 120% daily amount of Vit-C. That after I dropped my daily OJ at the uro's suggestion - it added problems with incontinence. No Urinary Tract infections since I started that one. Perhaps not a scientific test, but works for me.
 
I have all the doctors faxing all the visit notes to each other - seems a mess to have so many doctors invovled. I often wonder how many people have issues caused by having doctors accidentally working against each other with medications. Seems to me that the person who knows the most about what is going on is my local pharmacist.

Arnie
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 372
   Posted 10/31/2010 7:45 PM (GMT -6)   
about a year ago, my Vit. D-3 level was 25........my doctor put me on a 1000 IU per day regimen, and in 8 months, the level came up to 36. ........my doctor then prescribed 50,000 IU once a week, which i did for three months, and just got my level checked. That regimen brought the level up to 57. So it takes quite a lot to get the needle to move a bit. I'm feeling a little better, and in conjunction with raising my iron, B-12, and zinc levels, I feel like I'm on the right path. I've mentioned before that Vit. D-3 is actually a misnomer, as it is a pre, or pro homone.------------I also had my testosoterone checked, and in 3 months, the total serum level has risen from 337 to 496. My free testosterone has also risen from the mid 40's to the mid 70's. The percentage of free to total, however, is very low.
 
Interpetation for me: That Vit. D-3 and other vital markers work in tandem. I'm not supplementing with Testosterone, so it had to have had an effect, because prior to this, my levels remained consistently in the low 300's. Vitmain D-3, in addtion to all the other good things it does, also works as an aromatase inhibitor, binding to the Sex Hormone Binding Globulin that plays Pacman with our testosterone
 
Our plan is to continue with the 50,000 IU per week for another 12 weeks and test again. I'm sure it's going to bring it to around the 70-75 level where my doctor wants to see it. ( Remember, the range is 30-100, so that's still way under the high point) At that point, we'll go to a yet-to be-determined maintenance dose. I'm outdoors quite a bit, and obviously was not getting enought D from the sun. Even the 1000 per day wasn't cutting the mustard. I'm guinea pig proof that mega does of D won't hurt as long as you monitor. We have no intention of letting it get to toxic range. We'll also test the "T" again, and come up with a game plan based on my numbers and symptoms at that time............oh, and we'll be testing my PSA at the 2-yr mark, along with everything else------minor little thing, that. :-) 
 
Arnie in DE

Putt
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 154
   Posted 11/1/2010 11:39 AM (GMT -6)   
A year ago my Vit D level was around 25.  My Oncologist Rx'd 60,000 iu weekly in order to get it back up to a reasonable level.  I purchased a bottle of Vit D3 (2,000 iu ea dose) and started taking 4 per day.  Six months later it was checked again and it had only risen to 40, which is in the low range of normal.  I backed off to 3 per day and 6 months later the level was 84.  My doctor advised to cut back to 1 per day and we would check it again in December.
 
There has been a lot written about the possibility that D3 may help discourage PC cells from growing, but that is not the reason I take it.  During the 27 months that I was on Lupron, I was not aware of the possibility of bone loss, being a side effect.  As a result, I now have severe osteoporosis and must take a biophosphonate (Fosamax) in order to stop the loss and attempt to rebuild new bone.  Therefore, I take Vit D3 along with 2,000 mg of Calcium Citrate per day.
 
Since I am blessed with PC, COPD, Osteoperosis, skin cancer, and who knows what else, am I concerned about OD'ing on D3?.  Give me a break.........
PSA at Dx 105 at age 68, 4/04. ADT (Lupron only), RRP, 5/04. Gleason 4+5=9, Staged pT3c N0 MX, 3D rad, 40 treatments, 8/04. PSA 1/05 <0.01. ADT till 7/07. PSA 0.03 12/08, 0.07 4/09, 0.13 8/09, 0.19 12/09, 0.30 4/10, 8/10 0.41. Will start ADT3 after PSA reaches 1.2.

tarhoosier
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2010
Total Posts : 487
   Posted 11/1/2010 1:45 PM (GMT -6)   
Re: Vitamin D-The body has a natural system to inhibit D from the sun since working all day in the sun could otherwise lead to an overdose. This natural block is one reason why old timers like me can spend an hour in the sun every day and have no effect on D level. I was at 25 and took 1000 iu/day and went to 32. I changed sources and dosage and after a year of 11,000/day I was up to 75-80. I now maintain with about 8000/day, gelcaps, GNC. Tested regualarly.
By the way, my cluster headaches, (like migraine) which I have had episodes of a month or two once every 18-24 months have now disappeared for four years. D? Maybe.

BB_Fan
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 1011
   Posted 11/1/2010 3:25 PM (GMT -6)   
I appeciate all the comments. If my vit d level doesn't continue moving up, I will consider increasing the dosage. At 58 nl/mg I am getting close to my target. I just thought the progessing would be quicker at, what I thought was, a large dose.
Dx PCa Dec 2008 at 56, PSA 3.4
Biopsy: T1c, Geason 7 (3+4) - 8 cores, 4 positive, 30% of all 4 cores.
Robotic Surgery March 2009 Hartford Hospital, Dr Wagner
Pathology Report: T2c, Geason 8, organ confined, negitive margins, lymph nodes negitive - tumor volume 9%, nerves spared, no negitive side effects of surgery.
PSA's < .01, .01, .07, .28, .50. HT 5/10. IMRT 9/10.
PSA's post HT .01, < .01

proscapt
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 644
   Posted 11/1/2010 4:09 PM (GMT -6)   
I was told that not everyone manufactures vitamin D at the same rate from exposure to sun. The older you are, the less efficiently your body does this. And people with more darkly pigmented skin will make less vitamin D from a given amount of sun exposure than people with fair skin. So the advice I've received is ignore the generalizations and get tested, and if your vitamin D is low, take enough supplemental D-3 to get your vitamin D blood level up to where it needs to be.

el perro
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2010
Total Posts : 46
   Posted 11/1/2010 6:34 PM (GMT -6)   
Agree with proscapt and others about sun exposure issue. I was on 4000 iu through winter with serum D of about 65. I backed off to 2000 iu for summer to allow for sun exposure. My lab just came back with serum D down to 40. My D is the lowest its been in a year and PSA is the highest its been in a year. Coincidence? Maybe, but I'm going back to 4000 iu year round.

BTW, I think Dr. Myers recommends vit. D with a large meal with healthy fats (olive oil, avocado, etc.) to improve absorption, but oatmeal interferes with absorption. I previously took mine at breakfast with oatmeal, but now take it with lunch and dinner instead.

What is the rationale for doing a large once-weekly dose of vit. D vs. spreading it out over daily doses?
Dx 11/2008, Gleason 3+3
Active surveillance for now

MrGimpy
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 504
   Posted 11/2/2010 8:45 AM (GMT -6)   
Fiber in Oatmeal and other foods inhibits Vitamin D absorption. It is best to take Calcium and/or Vitamin D supplements with a low fiber high fat meal (healthy fats). So one can take 1,000iu's and they can get mostly absorbed if taken with the right fats or take 5,000 iu's and little if any get absorbed if taken with a high fiber meal ( oatmeal, whole grain breads, cereals, fruits, etc)

If you take an Omega 3 fish oil supp take the D at that time the oils from fish oil supp will work with the D

Remember its not how much you take its how much of what you take the body absorbs and uses

While Exposure to the Sun is the optimal way to get all the Vit D one would need, Sun exposure also creates other issues. Hence Sunscreen. As we add sunscreen we are depleting our stores of Vit D as we are blocking the UV rays that the body uses to create D

Its always best to get a baseline Vit D test before starting on any supp regimen. My Dr does mine when He does my fasting Cholesterol test

mr bill
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2010
Total Posts : 688
   Posted 11/2/2010 5:11 PM (GMT -6)   
Purgatory,
Yes, that Cranberry juice (pure) does work.  Not the kind mixed with grape. juice and sweeteners.  We have a brand called Knudson, just cranberry, nasty tasting, but it does work.  Not an ad for that brand, just happens to be the one carried in local store.  It definately works for uti. Anything taste that bad has to work.

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25380
   Posted 11/2/2010 6:50 PM (GMT -6)   
mr bill,

since i wont drink cranberry juice, dr has me on 2000 mg cranberry juice pills with vitamin c instead.
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10

mr bill
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2010
Total Posts : 688
   Posted 11/3/2010 3:30 AM (GMT -6)   
I don't blame you for not wanting to drink the juice. It is good there is an alternative.
Age 66
BPH since 2000. at least three negative biopsies Erie. Uro did not prescribe finasteride
2007 acute urine retention photoselective vaporize Clev. Clinic
8-9-10 Aug PSA rose to 10.14 with finasteride positive biopsy Cleveland gleason 9, cat & bone scan negative
9-8-10 Robotic prostatectomy at Cleveland. Biopsy 9 nodes, 2 positive,seminal & vas deferens
PSA 3 week .06
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
Forum Information
Currently it is Saturday, June 23, 2018 9:34 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 2,974,652 posts in 326,194 threads.
View Active Threads


Who's Online
This forum has 161294 registered members. Please welcome our newest member, UnknownBlueLight.
340 Guest(s), 4 Registered Member(s) are currently online.  Details
mattamx, Girlie, Lwnsmld13, U.C.Me?