Robotic and cancer spread?

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mr bill
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Date Joined Sep 2010
Total Posts : 709
   Posted 12/7/2010 8:57 PM (GMT -6)   
I just happened to be reading the news on Elizabeth Edwards.  We lost a wonderful, sincere, strong person.  
 
As I read on I opened several links, including this one which is a video/advertising for American Cancer Centers.  The genttleman who is giving the overview of his treatment mentions that he was told they did not want to do surgery as it may cause the PC to spread.  Anybody ever heard of that?
 
http://www.cancercenter.com/virtual-experience/?subjectid=clairMcKean
Age 66
BPH since 1996. at least three negative biopsies Erie. Uro did not prescribe finasteride
2007 acute urine retention photovaporize Clev. Clinic prscb finasteride
8-9-10 PSA rose to 10.14 with finasteride positive biopsy Cleveland gleason 9, cat & bone scan negative
9-8-10 RP at Cleveland. Biopsy 9 nodes 2 positive, 2 positive,seminal & vas deferens
PSA 3 wk .06, 6 wk <.03, 12wk 0.0

John T
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Date Joined Nov 2008
Total Posts : 4269
   Posted 12/7/2010 9:41 PM (GMT -6)   
I've heard it many times; I've also heard it said about biopsies. I have never seen any evidence to support either.
JT
65 years old, rising psa for 10 years from 4 to 40; 12 biopsies and MRIS all negative. Oct 2009 DXed with G6 <5%. Color Doppler biopsy found 2.5 cm G4+3. Combidex clear. Seeds and IMRT, no side affects and psa .1 at 1.5 years.

goodlife
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Date Joined May 2009
Total Posts : 2692
   Posted 12/7/2010 10:14 PM (GMT -6)   
But I have heard of folks having exploratory surgery for a problem, and having the surgeon sew them back up, saying they were full of cancer and they died shorthly thereafter, when they were relatively healthy prior to surgery.
Goodlife
 
Age 58, PSA 4.47 Biopsy - 2/12 cores , Gleason 4 + 5 = 9
Da Vinci, Cleveland Clinic  4/14/09   Nerves spared, but carved up a little.
0/23 lymph nodes involved  pT3a NO MX
Catheter and 2 stints in ureters for 2 weeks .
Neg Margins, bladder neck negative
Living the Good Life, cancer free  6 week PSA  <.03
3 month PSA <.01 (different lab)
5 month PSA <.03 (undetectable)
6 Month PSA <.01
1 pad a day, no progress on ED.  Trimix injection
No pads, 1/1/10,  9 month PSA < .01
1 year psa (364 days) .01
15 month PSA <.01

NEIrish
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 245
   Posted 12/7/2010 10:44 PM (GMT -6)   
I'd heard of it once, about 10 yrs. ago, when I had a stereotactic core needle biopsy of the breast.  There was a report or 2 on the possibility of seeding the needle drag with cancer cells as it was removed with the biopsy cells.  Never heard or saw anything beyond those 2 reports.  Sounds logical, though, doesn't it?  Nasty, fast-growing malignant cells being dragged through new territory by pointy instruments?  Sounds like a question for an oncologist or pathologist... 

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 12/7/2010 10:56 PM (GMT -6)   
I think its just another urban myth, no real evidence of that ever happening.
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10

Casey59
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 3172
   Posted 12/7/2010 11:13 PM (GMT -6)   
mr bill, I didn't really see where in this ad it talked about this topic, but I did some reading on it about a year ago.

There were some puzzling breast cancer findings reported in a study where women whose breast cancers have spread to their lymph nodes were more likely to have had their cancer diagnosed by needle biopsy. The lymph node tumors were discovered, however, a mere 2-weeks after the biopsy, and so the official conclusion was that this study does NOT link biopsy with spread of breast cancer...but that didn't stop the questions raised.

The way that Dr Walsh describes this situation for prostate cancer biopsies is that only cells which could possibly live outside the prostate are ones that are very highly differentiated and already matured...and they probably already exist outside the gland, anyhow.

mr bill
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2010
Total Posts : 709
   Posted 12/8/2010 7:50 AM (GMT -6)   
Casey,
The Patient mentions it toward the end of the video.   It goes by quick, and I almost missed it. 

mr bill
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2010
Total Posts : 709
   Posted 12/8/2010 7:52 AM (GMT -6)   
He is the one top row fourth from left.

Post Edited (mr bill) : 12/8/2010 7:11:39 AM (GMT-7)


BobCape
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2010
Total Posts : 416
   Posted 12/8/2010 8:31 AM (GMT -6)   
In trying to better understand my situation, I asked both of my urologists the question "couldn't the biopsy itself actually allow the cancer to spread?". They both gave me the same, answer "We simply dont have a better way of doing it". I imagine it wouldn't be a subject that the medical profession would like us to look into any further.

tarhoosier
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2010
Total Posts : 495
   Posted 12/8/2010 10:45 AM (GMT -6)   
I think that the answer is that it is possible that biopsy (or TURP) could spread a microscopic bit of cancer cells to surrounding areas, or allow a track for cells to drift to and through. There is no real way to determine this. The other side of this is that there is absolutely no way to diagnose the condition without a biopsy, so the risk, though small to very small, is far outweighed by the advantage of a chance of definite diagnosis. ALL procedures have risks. Few have such potential for health keeping as a cancer biopsy. The risk/benefit calculation comes heavily on the side of the biopsy. I would be more concerned about the risk of sepsis, e. coli contamination, bleeding and other unfortunate results of the procedure.

LV-TX
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 966
   Posted 12/8/2010 1:17 PM (GMT -6)   
Is it possible...yes and no. It all depends on the type (grade) of the cancer. Well differentiated or modererately differentiated cancer cells from needle tracking probably will not survive outside the environment of the prostate. Typical of glandular cancer cells...they have to remain within the original gland to survive.

The poorly differentiated cancer cells are most likely the ones to survive through needle tracking...but the caveat is that they probably already had escaped the confines of the prostate in the first place.

It is impossible to say one way or the other if the biopsy cause the spread of cancer or if the cancer had already escaped the confines of the prostate. Most doctors will tell you no, but technically it can under certain circumstances.
You are beating back cancer, so hold your head up with dignity

Les

Signature details in Sticky Post above - page 2

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 12/8/2010 4:17 PM (GMT -6)   
can anyone cite a single case where this type of spread has been proven?
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10

mr bill
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2010
Total Posts : 709
   Posted 12/8/2010 4:52 PM (GMT -6)   
It seems that would be very difficult to establish. Particularly after a positive biopsy.  However, the folks who produced that ad for American Cancer Centers must know something.  Or maybe they are shooting from the hip.  A  lot of potentially significant issues are not brought to light till Monday morning (when the quarterbacks come out).

Herophilus
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Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 664
   Posted 12/8/2010 6:31 PM (GMT -6)   
This is a known risk in patients with transitional cell carcinoma (bladder cancer)…we call it implantation metastasis. I have never seen documented proof with Prostate disease. As stated above how else you going to get the darn tissue.
Hero
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