Anti-Oxidants and Healing Well ? Your personal experiences !

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BuiDoi
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 234
   Posted 1/4/2011 3:46 AM (GMT -6)   

.

An email alerted me to a prediction on a Natural-Health site.  .. .. . I found the predictions rather prophetic.

{{  " What's ahead for 2011 - 2012?   .. This time in human history promises to bring forth more changes than any other similar duration of time known to our civilization................   The global shift away from pharmaceuticals and toward disease prevention and
nutrition will accelerate in 2011 - 2012,   with vitamin D leading the charge.   An increasing number of people will learn about top nutrients such as resveratrol, astaxanthin and omega-3s. Nutrition education will become increasingly evident in public schools, and many school lunch programs will be reworked to remove more processed dead foods and increase real nutrition."  }}
http://www.naturalnews.com/030903_predictions_2011.html
(Resveratrol - another fancy name for Anti-Oxidants)



In another HW thread ( on Pomegranate Juice {anti-oxidant} ) , we were discussing the application of Anti-Oxidants, as a tool to potentially FIGHT cancer, and improve general health, but it was decided that there was nothing else to be discussed, and the thread was locked.  A number of emails suggested that many folk were interested in the discussions, and were disappointed by the negative attitudes of some members.


Ironically, the formal authorities seem strangely unwilling to commit to a policy, whilst feeding sufficient information to leave you thinking "There has to be more behind all this stuff".
Something is holding the formal organisations back from any real commitment, and cynical folk would point their fingers at the Global Pharmaceutical Companies, who have just so much to lose from cheap and unpatentable 'Health-Supplements'.


I previously reported how the US Govt. recognised the value of Anti-Oxidants, by actually measuring the ORAC Value (Oxygen Radical Absorbance Capacity ..) of an extensive list of foods.

{{  "The development of various chronic and degenerative diseases, such as cancer (1), heart disease (24), and neuronal degeneration such as Alzheimer?s (5) and Parkinson?s disease (14) may be attributed, in part, to oxidative stress. Oxidative stress has also been implicated in the process of aging (2). Although the human body has developed a number of systems to eliminate free radicals such as reactive oxygen species from the body, it is not 100% efficient (26).
Diets rich in fruits and vegetables are considered to be an excellent source of antioxidants (13). Some minerals and vitamins have a role as dietary antioxidants. These include vitamin C (ascorbic acid), vitamin E and its isomers (tocopherols and tocotrienols), and selenium. Data for these nutrients are included in the USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference (SR) (23). USDA has also published a number of Special Interest Databases on classes of components, some of which may also act as antioxidants. These include: Carotenoids (now merged with SR); isoflavones (20), flavonoids (21), and Proanthocyanidins (22)."  }}
http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=15866

In fact they did it in 2007 and repeated it in 2010.  It's a case of "Here is the information - don't ask any questions"...   I know because I have contacted them, and was politely told to go away..

We had it pointed out to us that a 2008 literature survey by the American Cancer Society, could not find real proof that the Anti-Oxidant Supplement Pycnogenol ( Pine-Bark-Extract -- A Primary ingredient in various OPC supplements ), was proved effective but their comments showed a distinct attitude that there was a good deal of positive support.

{{  "Some small brief studies have been done to look at pine bark extract?s possible usefulness in treating asthma, menstrual pain, blood clots and leg swelling during long airplane flights, retinal disease in diabetics, high cholesterol, and other disorders. All of these studies need to be done on larger groups of people under carefully controlled conditions to find out whether pine bark extract actually helps any of these problems. "  }}
http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/TreatmentsandSideEffects/ComplementaryandAlternativeMedicine/HerbsVitaminsandMinerals/pine-bark-extract



Various other studies have shown similar results, of finding strong positive indications, but no 'proof' positive..
{{ "Oligomeric proanthocyanidin complexes (OPCs) or pycnogenols are extracted commercially from either grape seeds or maritime pine bark and sold under trade names such as Pycnogenol In Europe they are used to enhance capillary stability and enhance lymphatic drainage in diverse conditions; they are widely marketed in the US as a treatment for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). Data from in vitro and animal studies demonstrate OPCs? potent antioxidant and vasoprotective effects. At least eight double blind, placebo controlled trials have found significant benefits of OPCs in preventing and/or treating edema and chronic venous insufficiency. Several studies suggest that, like bilberry (which contains similar compounds), OPCs enhance night vision and recovery from glare. There are no randomized, controlled trials evaluating the effect of OPCs on atherosclerosis, ADHD,  allergies, macular degeneration, diabetic retinopathy or aging skin. There are no reported allergies and no side effects with OPCs that exceed those found with placebo treatment. There are no data on safety during pregnancy, lactation or childhood, and no data on adverse interactions with other medications or dietary supplements."  }}
http://www.longwoodherbal.org/opcs/opcs.pdf


As there is such controversy over these supplements, I am still interested in hearing from anyone with practical experience of physical benefit, or knowledge of specific reports supporting or rejecting the application of Anti-Oxidants such as OPC-3, OPCXtra or Resveratrols..!
NOTHING - but - NOTHING in this discussion should encourage you to reject conventional treatment and adopt these "Natural Alternatives".

Healing-Well after Prostate Cancer is in OUR hands, and what we consume may influence how complete is our Healing..

I personally know of a male who is solely controlling a (Cell-Phone) brain cancer, and a male now controlling chrons-disease, and women still alive after being told their cancer was un-treatable.   All rely on OPC as the basis of their health plan..  What is your experience ?

We will NEVER be able to prove that anything is working or cured.  Even our RP comes without guarantee that we will be free of cancer  rolleyes ..
.

Post Edited (BuiDoi) : 1/4/2011 10:34:27 PM (GMT-7)


Steve n Dallas
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 4829
   Posted 1/4/2011 6:15 AM (GMT -6)   
I think it's hard to argue that Anti-Oxidants "won't" help anyone. The bigger question - is How Much.

compiler
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 7203
   Posted 1/4/2011 10:52 AM (GMT -6)   
HERE WE GO AGAIN!
Mel

Red Nighthawk
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 289
   Posted 1/4/2011 11:41 AM (GMT -6)   
I thought the post was very informative and a far better use than reading about someone who has a cold or is taking a trip. hmmmm?
Age: 63
Gleason grade: 3+4=7, pT2c NX MX
Robotic RP: Sept. 15th, 2009
No lymphatic/vascular invasion, seminal vesicles, margins tumor free.
Pre surgery PSA: 4.1
Post surgery PSA's: .04, .03, .02, .05, .02
ED: Improvement slow but there are positive signs. No incontinent issues.
Surgery: Dr. Jim Hu. Dana-Farber/Brigham and Women's, Boston

compiler
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 7203
   Posted 1/4/2011 2:26 PM (GMT -6)   
Hawk is illustrating my point
 
Mel

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25380
   Posted 1/4/2011 2:33 PM (GMT -6)   
"NOTHING - but - NOTHING in this discussion should encourage you to reject conventional treatment and adopt these "Natural Alternatives".

Buidoi: I give you credit this time for at least putting the above disclaimer at the bottom of your post.

David in SC
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10

clocknut
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2010
Total Posts : 2666
   Posted 1/4/2011 3:06 PM (GMT -6)   
BuiDoi said, "I personally know of a male who is solely controlling a brain cancer, and a male now controlling chrons-disease, and women still alive after being told their cancer was un-treatable."
 
I would just ask, how do  you know that it's their use of these substances that is keeping them alive?  Are they doing nothing else?  This sounds purely anecdotal, not scientific.  I've heard many times in my lifetime of people who have defied doctor's predictions of imminent death, and they were not using any of these substances.  Maybe it just happens.  Maybe using these substances is not a true cause/effect, just simply two realities, neither influencing the other.
 
And why is it reasonable to allege that the big pharmaceutical companies are somehow keeping important information from us, any more than it might be resonable to assume that the people hawking resveratol and similar substances are trying to get rich?  I keeI'p picturing Kevin Trudeau hawking his book telling us what "doctors don't want us to know."  Right!
 
I'm trying to keep an open mind, but the element of this that would have us believe that the government, or the drug companies, or doctors, are hiding truths that may save our lives is just too much for me to swallow. 
 
I hope these thing prove effective, but I'm a long way from convinced.   
 
 
 
 
 
 

BB_Fan
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Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 1011
   Posted 1/4/2011 3:15 PM (GMT -6)   
I don't see any harm in a general discussion of suppliments. I think that, to some extent, almost all of us have changed our diet and that very many of us are taking suppliments. Although the discussions get much more heated then they need to be and often end up negative and redundant. I understand why the moderators are concerned.

DuiBoi, to respond to your question. I have significantly changed my diet and take suppliments including ani oxidents. I believe that they we be effective in slowing the growth rate of may PCa (no cure expected by me), but I don't believe that I will ever know how much or be able to prove it.

I was very interested in the Nighthawks little test last fall in advance of a PSA test where hit his PCa diet hard and his PSA didn't go up. Is it absolute proof that diet arrested PCa proof? Probably not, but it made me feel better about my efforts at diet and suppliments.

I'm am always interest in treads on this topic, and don't believe that they should be discouraged. BB
Dx PCa Dec 2008 at 56, PSA 3.4
Biopsy: T1c, Geason 7 (3+4) - 8 cores, 4 positive, 30% of all 4 cores.
Robotic Surgery March 2009 Hartford Hospital, Dr Wagner
Pathology Report: T2c, Geason 8, organ confined, negitive margins, lymph nodes negitive - tumor volume 9%, nerves spared, no negitive side effects of surgery.
PSA's < .01, .01, .07, .28, .50. HT 5/10. IMRT 9/10.
PSA's post HT .01, < .01

Tudpock18
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Sep 2008
Total Posts : 4149
   Posted 1/4/2011 3:48 PM (GMT -6)   
I don't think that most of us object to the general discussions about supplements.  However, now we are told they control brain cancer, etc. and some posters seems to want to refer to them in every thread.  I'm starting to understand why David is getting annoyed.  It's the same reason that BillyMac gets annoyed when posters go overboard on religion...the constant
proselytizing.  You know, if you Google "scientific proof of prayer in healing" there are about 60,000 hits.  Moderators, would you object if I pointed to some of that evidence to help our brothers who want to reduce their PSA?  I had an uncle who was told he had 3 months to live but lived for 5 years and his family swears it was prayer that did it.... Hopefully, you know my question is rhetorical but also hopefully there is a reasonable message.
 
On that note I'm going to go gulp down some M & M's with my Vitamin D.
 
Tudpock (Jim)
 
 

Age 62 (64 now), G 3 + 4 = 7, T1C, PSA 4.2, 2/16 cancerous, 27cc. Brachytherapy 12/9/08. 73 Iodine-125 seeds. Procedure went great, catheter out before I went home, only minor discomfort. Everything continues to function normally as of 12/8/10. PSA: 6 mo 1.4, 1 yr. 1.0, 2 yr. .8. My docs are "delighted"! My journey:
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=35&m=1305643&g=1305643#m1305643

BuiDoi
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 234
   Posted 1/4/2011 4:51 PM (GMT -6)   

.

WHY on earth do you, who have nothing to offer, even bother to respond.  If you wish to place your complete trust in your doctors, then take the medicines that they are paid to prescribe, do as they say and leave us alone to compare notes.

Some of us are interested in  "Healing-Well" by any means !

Pre-RRP my PSA dropped from 5.2 to 4.7, and I choose to believe that it was the OPC stuff.    ..  I no longer have debilitating arthritis, and my wife can sew again because she can use her fingers again..  They are things that WE can see and feel and there could be things that we can't see and feel.   Nothing within me that has improved, can be proved, but boy, there is a deal of coincidence... .. . Blood Pressure, Cholesterol, Arthritis, harder finger nails..  various silly things..?

The friend's Brain cancer has been shown by MRI to be shrinking, without any conventional treatment.  YES - it is possible that it is Placebo effect and genuine Mind-Over-Matter, or a pure miracle, but can we not openly talk about it and hear what others have found, or are some here so bitter that you don't want to know what could have been or could be, or do you have alternate motives to stop any discussion. .. . Are you going to flame this thread and cause it to be LOCKED..   Please - just go away !

If there is no fact behind the claims, then there will be NO responses to this thread, and it can run UNLOCKED for years and will NEVER get any bigger !

..

 


Tudpock18
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Sep 2008
Total Posts : 4149
   Posted 1/4/2011 6:29 PM (GMT -6)   
BuiDoi, perhaps you might consider taking some of the pine bark extract to improve your disposition.  One of the beauties of this site is that all of us are entitled to share our thoughts and opinions (within the rules of course).  Chill out, man.
 
Tudpock (Jim)

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25380
   Posted 1/4/2011 6:46 PM (GMT -6)   
BuiDoi:

Your words: " WHY on earth do you, who have nothing to offer, even bother to respond. If you wish to place your complete trust in your doctors, then take the medicines that they are paid to prescribe, do as they say and leave us alone to compare notes.

Some of us are interested in "Healing-Well" by any means !"

You remind me of another poster, always trying to be dogmatic and forceful in your threads. Really doesn't work well here. My doctor is paid to prescribe meds to me? What utter rubbish. I can't believe in the people that buy into all this conspiracy theory stuff with doctors. Why bother to go? You must already know more than your doctors, or what they prescribe. Or worse, you see doctors but never listen to them, known as "non-compliant".
"Some of us interested in "Healing Well" by any means!" What is that suppose to mean? HW already forbids those promoting snake oil solutions and spam attempts to sell the miraculous means of healing. That's in the rules of the forumn too.

I did tax work for a Licenced Medical Hypnotist last year, and boy, you talk about nutty as a fruit cake, guy was trying to convince me that cancer didn't really exist, and that it was in the power of a person's mind to make it go away. He was always wanting me to barter his "remedies" for my services. No thanks, I took nice American cash, and got him a nice big fat refund check instead.

Did he really believe the rubbish he was selling, which is scary, or was it just the scam I thought it was. Either way, he had a stready stream of takers for his nonsense. So what are you really selling here, so to speak?

David in SC

Post Edited (Purgatory) : 1/4/2011 5:51:30 PM (GMT-7)


Fairwind
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Date Joined Jul 2010
Total Posts : 3738
   Posted 1/4/2011 7:59 PM (GMT -6)   
A medical Oncologist I consulted with, a man who has treated thousands of patients, told me this..

"Diet probably plays an important role in how healthy we are..As our bodies grow and develop, diet is VERY important if a long and healthy life is to be expected.. But once cancer has been diagnosed, I have never seen any special diet or supplement have any effect at all on the progression of the cancer..Many of my patients take dietary supplements but unless I see negative factors developing, I just leave them alone, especially if it seems to make them feel better..."
Age 68.
PSA at age 55: 3.5, DRE normal. Advice, "Keep an eye on it".
age 58: 4.5
" 61: 5.2
" 64: 7.5, DRE "Abnormal"
" 65: 8.5, " normal", biopsy, 12 core, negative...
" 66 9.0 "normal", 2ed biopsy, negative, BPH, Proscar
" 67 4.5 DRE "normal"
" 68 7.0 third biopsy positive, 4 out of 12, G-6,7, 9
RRP Sept 3 2010, pos margin, one pos vesicle nodes neg. Post Op PSA 0.9 SRT, HT NOW

Postop
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2010
Total Posts : 385
   Posted 1/4/2011 8:05 PM (GMT -6)   
Well, one thing to throw into this discussion--if a link is permitted, her is an article from last year's New York Times, "Extra Vitamin E: No Benefit, Maybe Harm":

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/24/health/24brod.html

Quoting this article regarding prostate cancer:

"The Select trial (an acronym for the Selenium and Vitamin E Cancer Prevention Trial) followed 35,533 men from 427 locations in the United States, Canada and Puerto Rico for more than five years. It found no benefit, but did find a “statistically nonsignificant increased risk of prostate cancer” in the group taking 400 I.U.’s a day of vitamin E. Selenium alone offered no benefit, and neither did selenium combined with vitamin E.

The second study, a continuation of the Physicians’ Health Study, found that among male doctors who took 400 I.U.’s of vitamin E every other day and 500 milligrams of vitamin C every day, there was no decreased risk of developing prostate cancer or cancer in general."

Any treatment, including "natural" ones like extra vitamins and antioxidants (Vitamin E is both), should be tested to see if they are safe and effective. That means randomized controlled trials. Without this evidence, you cannot assume that they may be helpful for anyone at all, or even that they won't harm anyone.

Beyond this, to make claims that may induce someone to uses these supplements in place of standard treatment would not be right. If someone has low risk PCa under active surveillance, it may or may not matter too much. If some has, say, leukemia or lymphoma, substituting supplements for standard treatment could cost a life.

BB_Fan
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 1011
   Posted 1/4/2011 11:03 PM (GMT -6)   
You were right on Compiler, "Here we go again".
Dx PCa Dec 2008 at 56, PSA 3.4
Biopsy: T1c, Geason 7 (3+4) - 8 cores, 4 positive, 30% of all 4 cores.
Robotic Surgery March 2009 Hartford Hospital, Dr Wagner
Pathology Report: T2c, Geason 8, organ confined, negitive margins, lymph nodes negitive - tumor volume 9%, nerves spared, no negitive side effects of surgery.
PSA's < .01, .01, .07, .28, .50. HT 5/10. IMRT 9/10.
PSA's post HT .01, < .01

compiler
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 7203
   Posted 1/4/2011 11:28 PM (GMT -6)   
It was obvious from the subject heading.
 
Mel

BuiDoi
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 234
   Posted 1/4/2011 11:30 PM (GMT -6)   

.

Thanks - PostOp for the observations of Vit-E and Selenium..  That fact is well reported and known, and it's interesting just how many "Specialists" actually touted them as being likely helpful !   .. . Fortunately we are not discussing Vit-E/Selenium, so the observation is pointless..  To tar every medicine/supplement with the same brush is obviously over the top.  I suspect that a good few 'Specialists' will never again recognise anything that is not mainstream.

""One of the beauties of this site is that all of us are entitled to share our thoughts and opinions (within the rules of course).""
Thanks for refreshing our collective memories.  Hopefully, those opposed to anything "Alternative" will also note the comments.
 
""If someone has low risk PCa under active surveillance, it may or may not matter too much. ""
It's interesting how many here support the notion that PC tends to be over-reacted to, and that the drama that treatment causes, does not warrant the intervention.
If someone fell into this category, or found that their membership of the Post-RP  "ZERO CLUB"  was beginning to lapse, with Non-Zero's appearing, I would be confident that ANYTHING that did not harm, would be viewed as a potential good..  So, IF the consumption of certain Anti-Oxidants did boost the natural immune system, and did slow, or halt, or reverse the cancer's progression, then would that not be seen as a positive ?

I only know a few people who by taking AO's have significantly controlled their medical conditions.  There is no report that I have seen anywhere, suggesting that the mainstream AO's , like OPCXtra or Resveratrol etc. can cause ANY harm.  That seems to the one factor common to most reports - Does no recorded harm...!

"My doctor is paid to prescribe meds to me? What utter rubbish."
I have to suggest that thinking this, places you in another world. 
My GP has told me about how the Pharma-Reps try to offer incentives for him to prescribe their drugs, and he comments on how the more specialised you are, the greater the incentives with Overseas Holidays and study tours being offered for "Loyal Support" of product lines.
I respectfully suggest that "This is life" today.  Perhaps the Morally-Hardened doctors don't have the problem, because they might refuse the courtship attempts by the Pharma-Reps.  What I am suggesting is that I for one, will look at any significant 'drug' that I am prescribed , and will investigate just what the effects/side-effects are, and will not blindly rely on the doctor to be totally unbiased in the drug choice..



"HW already forbids those promoting snake oil solutions and spam attempts to sell the miraculous means of healing."
The assumption here is that we are talking about Snake-Oil treatments, but there is significant anecdotal evidence that AO's are not Snake-Oil contenders.  If we cannot talk about such issues, rationally, then we should not talk about ANY treatment, because it might cause someone to think differently to their specialists.   I suspect that there are some amongst us who have very good reason to SUE their specialists for the total stuff-ups that they have caused. 

I am not selling anything..  I am seeking information, just as valid as someone posting  "What if" questions.

..


 

Post Edited (BuiDoi) : 1/4/2011 10:42:39 PM (GMT-7)


BuiDoi
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 234
   Posted 1/5/2011 12:08 AM (GMT -6)   

..

"I then noticed a research report from India that had some very provocative, relevant findings. Indian researchers had studied two groups of rats. In one group, they administered the cancercausing aflatoxin, then fed a diet that was composed of 20% protein, a level near what many of us consume in the West. In the other group, they administered the same amount of aflatoxin, but then fed a diet that was only composed of 5% protein. Incredibly, every single animal that consumed the 20% protein diet had evidence of liver cancer, and every single animal that consumed a 5% protein diet avoided liver cancer. It was a 100 to 0 score, leaving no doubt that nutrition trumped chemical carcinogens, even very potent carcinogens, in controlling cancer."

http://www.thechinastudy.com/PDFs/ChinaStudy_Excerpt.pdf

An interesting read - Thanks for the alert on this - Looks like I will be seeking a copy of the whole book..

..

.

 


BuiDoi
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 234
   Posted 1/5/2011 3:00 AM (GMT -6)   
questionaboutit said...
What is your personal experience with anti-oxidants? Have your PCa numbers improved? Does your doctor see improvements?
Federal law prohibits doctors from receiving any payments for medicines that are prescribed and bought by the patient from pharmacies. Doctors can receive a round about payment for drugs that they administer in the office. The payments are made by giving partial rebates for previously prescribed meds when the dr hits certain thresholds of using the drug. It was a scandal about kidney drs making a lot by administering a drug of dubious value.
I have been fairly open with our experiences.      Firstly NO known problems. 
 
Remembering that I chickened out, and had the wicked-cut, but, four days B4 the RP, a special PSA test showed a drop from 5.2 to 4.7  .. .  Too late for me - and the bride would kill me if I cancelled - Could not handle the uncertainty !!
A few doctor friends did believe in the power of AO's but convinced me that NOTHING could be more productive, than having the cancer removed and then use OPC's to   'ensure'   that it did not return.
 
The personal benefits that we have experienced are listed above.  A general "Better Health" would be the best description of our findings..  
In reality - we can't prove anything , and that leaves me uncertain, but one thing that I know as fact is that a few years ago I would crunch when walking up the stairs in the dead quiet of the mornings .  That crunching in the knees has gone, as has the bad pain..  It is clear that the pain is 95% better, NOT totally gone, but dramatically better.   (I have had cartlege removed in the worst knee)
 
I got a friend onto   OPC   1 month ago and he just arrived for a chat.  I supplied him from my personal stach..   As a fitter and turner, his hands are his work and he reported that even after a month, his hands are  free'er  than for many years.  Bottom line - most of the clear benefits display in Arthritis control.  Other benefits can't as easily be linked to the AO's..  That is part of the reason for MY interest in hearing from others' experiences..
 
"Does your doctor see improvements?"
I can't say that they really care..  Funny statement perhaps, but I don't think the average doctor goes any further than trying to fix any problems that one presents with..   I am reasonably healthy anyway, and the usual age-related issues of Arthritis are only spoken about IF I complain, and I don't.
As far as the U-Doc is concerned, he would have no concerns, unless I present with an abnormality like rising PSA.   One does not vist the U-Doc like you might, the GP..
 
"Federal law prohibits doctors from receiving any payments for medicines that are prescribed and bought by the patient from pharmacies. Doctors can receive a round about payment for drugs that they administer in the office. "
I know that there are practical laws about unethical behaviours, but it is clear that there are other ways of providing incentives.
I must admit that I don't know how the Pharma-Reps can attribute sales to specific doctors, as the patient would normally take a script to their local pharmacy..  I won't dwell on the subject as it's not that big an issue.
 
"Taken in moderation, most of this stuff is unlikely to hurt you and if it gives someone comfort, why not use it?"
The stuff that we take is that OPCXtra stuff, and it only has a small amount of various AO's.  Only 20% of it is the Pine-Bark extract
 
"When my son was in the hospital last week with his odd bout of kidney failure (reversing), the nephrologist wanted to know about ant OTC meds..."
Really sorry to hear about your son..  I hope that they do come to terms with the cause.. ,  and hope that it's fully curable..
It is clearly a big problem with modern life that some think that good-health can be achieved via the Vitamins Shelf..
 
It's fascinating how varied medical opinion really stands.  I was reading two blurbs by two self-proclaimed expert doctors in Natural Health.
One was proclaiming the miraculous benefits of natural Milk and the other was declaring it to be disasterous for health.  Indeed that book  'The China Study' is very scathing of Milk Products, and then another mob is highly critical of the books bias..
 
Is there any wonder that the average punter has no real idea, and our doctors are as confused and end up just asking  "Show me the proof"..   At least with registered 'Drugs' , our doctors can hide behind the TGA, as the approving authority.
 
My issue is that I don't need to go to the grave saying "I was resolute - They could not show me the proof"
..
.

Post Edited (BuiDoi) : 1/5/2011 2:14:50 AM (GMT-7)


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25380
   Posted 1/5/2011 6:55 AM (GMT -6)   
The China Study is old news, you are about 6 years late on that one. That's been hashed to death previously.

BTW, my doctors go out of their way to keep my drug costs down to almost nothing with generic drugs, my total average prescripton drug costs are about 15 dollars a month, yeah, that really keeps my doctors in the Mercedes that they dont even have.

You skirted the question pretty good about whether your own doctor has noticed any change in your PC because of your methods, I could only guess that the real answer is no.

David
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10

daveshan
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 363
   Posted 1/5/2011 7:43 AM (GMT -6)   
I'll toss in a few things here, probably regret it.

1. My father was a GP/Surgeon, (was = now deceased) there was no hint of direct payment, however the risk of getting sued for not prescribing the "accepted standard" was high. Any deviation from the current best practices was risky. He had done a lot of reading on Eastern medicine and was very positive toward it but reluctant to propose any.


2. Look at my PSA history, in the winter of 2007/8 I was suffering from being cooped up inside during a very long and gloomy winter and my wife suggested I hit a tanning salon regularly as a treatment for S.A.D. (look it up if necessary). my PSA had more than doubled from '06 to early '08 and only went up one point from 1-'08 to late '09, think the D might have helped?

3. Yes everyone has the right to express their own views but what's the point in cluttering up a thread with nay saying to the point that any info that might actually be on topic is lost in the BS. I'm sure a shrink would be able to figure out why people have to rain on others parades but I can't.
Dave in Durango CO
Diagnosed 12-09 age 55
07-06 PSA 2.5
01-08 PSA 5.5 (PCP did not tell me of increase or schedule follow-up!!!!)
09-09 PSA 6.5 Sent for consult with Urologist
11-09 Consult, scheduled for biopsy, found out about PSA from '08 (yes I was pissed)
12-09 Biopsy, initial Gleason 9 (4+5) later reduced to 8 with tertiary 5, ain't much but I'll take it.
01-10 Bone Scan, "appears negative"
03-01-10 RRP in Durango CO by Dr Sejal Quale and Dr Shandra Wilson, no naked eye evidence of spread, Vesicles and lymph nodes taken for microscopic exam.

03-16-10 Removal of cath' and pathology results of samples.
Multifocal carcinoma with areas of Gleason pattern 3, 4 and 5, Overall Gleason grade 4+4 with tertiary 5, Bilateral involving 21% of left lobe, 3% of right lobe, Invasion of left Seminal vesicle, Tumor focally present at left resection margin, 9 lymph nodes removed all negative, Tumor staging pT3b NO MX

04-23-10 PSA <0.04....... 06-07-10 PSA <0.04..... 08-03-10 <0.04
05-03-10 1 week without pads
06-28-10 ;-)

medved
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 1096
   Posted 1/5/2011 9:52 AM (GMT -6)   
daveshan seems to see this the way I do. there are some here who seem absolutely certain that some particular supplement is helpful. there are others who seem absolutely certain that any supplement or "natural treatment" is snake oil -- a waste of money -- no chance it will help. none of these seem to have empirical evidence to support their "certainty." i an skeptical of anyone who is absolutely certain of anything that they cannot prove. and, in any event, what is to be gained by criticizing some other person for efforts that person is making to improve their own health?
Age 46.  Father died of p ca. 
My psa starting age 40: 1.4, 1.3, 1.43, 1.74, 1.7, 1.5, 1.5
 

compiler
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 7203
   Posted 1/5/2011 10:20 AM (GMT -6)   
Medved and Dave:
 
Why shouldn't we criticize? That's the nature of intellectual discourse. Would you rather the statements regarding the healing powers of supplements go unchallenged?
 
Bring on the pine bark!
 
Mel

daveshan
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 363
   Posted 1/5/2011 10:32 AM (GMT -6)   
Mel

See #3 above, the OP clearly stated "personal experience" in the post title. You guys just have to jump in no matter what the OP is looking for.

Go for it if it makes you happy.

F8
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2010
Total Posts : 3800
   Posted 1/5/2011 10:59 AM (GMT -6)   
>>Why shouldn't we criticize? That's the nature of intellectual discourse.<<
 
true.  some people still believe the earth is flat cool .
 
ed

age: 55
PSA on 12/09: 6.8
no symptoms, no prostate enlargement
12/12 cores positive....gleason 3+4 = 7
HT, BT and IGRT
received 3rd and last lupron shot 9/14/10
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