This skeptic will try this stuff

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compiler
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Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 7197
   Posted 1/9/2011 10:23 AM (GMT -6)   
OK folks. As you know from my sudden barrage of posts, it looks like I am facing a BCR.
 
I am going to try the following:
 
1) Try and get my behind back in the gym
 
2) Drink 6-8 oz. of 100% Pomegranite Juice daily
 
3) I just bid on OPCXTRA on EBAY and will try that
 
4) Get back on generic zocor, a statin (I've stopped it 3 times due to muscle pains that may or may not have been due to that -- so I'll give it one more try).
 
5) I was thinking of adding a baby aspirin a day, but I will not as studies seem to show a minimum 15-year time horizon to help PC.
 
6) A daily fish oil capsule
 
7) A daily D-3 capsule
 
8) Ground flaxseed in my cereal each day
 
9) Try to continue to eat healthy (realistically, still might do an occassional steak, hamburger, or pizza -- maybe once every 10 days).
 
10) 1 Greek yogurt per day
 
I was going to do my next PSA on Feb. 1st and then changed that to Feb. 7th (30 days from my Ford appointment), but now I'm thinking Feb. 14th, which would give it a true 30-day trial from the time I put everything in place.
 
I am still very skeptical. Also, realistically, even if this stuff works, would anything good happen in 30 days? I wish I could give it 2-3 months, but I don't have that kind of time.
 
Mel
PSA-- 3/08--2.90; 8/09--4.01; 11/09--4.19 (PSAf: 24%), PCA3 =75 .
Biopsy 11/30/09. Gleason 4+3. Stage: T1C. Current Age: 64
Surgery: Dr. Menon @Ford Hospital, 1/26/10.
Pathology Report: G 4+3. Nodes: Clear. PNI: yes. SVI: No. EPE: yes. Pos. Margin: Yes-- focal-- 1 spot .5mm. 100% continent by 3/10. ED- in progress. PSA on 3/10/10-: 0.01. PSA on 6/21/10--0.02. 9/21/10--0.06; 1/4/11-0.13 CRAP!

JNF
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Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 3656
   Posted 1/9/2011 10:43 AM (GMT -6)   
Mel,,,,No magic bullets available. I do a lot of these not expecting a cure or reversal in 30-60-90 days. I expect them to help me be more healthy and fit thus impproving my immune system strength and my overall mental and physical wellbeing.

My take is that you have to do what it takes to help your body be less oportunistic to cancer. In the end it doesn't matter what we do, cancer is tough. Look at probably the most fit person on the face of the earth..Lance Armstrong..and what cancer did to him some 15 years ago. Thankfully his treatment and lifestyle and luck and the good lord and all have kept him free of cancer and allowed him to do great things.

We have to do the best we can and hope that the overall combination of actions is helpful. Look at Dean Ornish's books and you will see that he typically uses a five step process that includes medical treatment, diet, exercise, stress reduction, and supplements. I am going from memory on these, but you get the point. It is all aboout balance and bolstering our overall health and immune system coupled with the best medical intervention possible.

One rad-onc I got an opinion from said he documented a patient's decling PSA over a couple of years by following a pretty extreme diet, supplement, exercise, and meditation routine. He wouldn't give me any details, but he believes in it and prescribes it for his patients. Get Meyers book on diet and see what he says. Good info. Also Michael Millikan's cookbook and a doctor/nutritionalist at University of Michigan named Mark Moyad. He appears to be leadiing edge on the diet front. My urologist provided me with his information.

compiler
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Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 7197
   Posted 1/9/2011 10:50 AM (GMT -6)   

JNF:

Thanks for your response. Obviously, I'm looking for something I can do now. I'm not sure if this will improve my overall health. It will be an interesting experiment.

I have a meeting with the rad. oncologist on Wednesday and I hope he will be supportive (heck, he might say forget this stuff you need radiation NOW!). I also intend to ask around and see if there is a local dietician with expertise in this area.

It is very difficult to change!

 

Mel


James C.
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Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4462
   Posted 1/9/2011 10:52 AM (GMT -6)   
So, what ya gonna do if it drops it , say from .13 to .10 in 30 days. Gonna be like having 2 watches, you never know what the correct time is. smilewinkgrin or 2 differing biopsy reports..
James C. Age 63
Gonna Make Myself A Better Man tinyurl.com/28e8qcg
4/07: PSA 7.6, 7/07 Biopsy: 3 of 16 PCa, 5% involved, left lobe, GS6
9/07: Nerve Sparing open RP, Path: pT2c, 110 gms., clear except:
Probable microscopic involvement-left apical margin -GS6
3 Years: PSA's .04 each test until 04/10-.06, 09/10-.09, 01/11-.09
ED-total-Bimix 30cc

medved
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 1096
   Posted 1/9/2011 11:28 AM (GMT -6)   
Maybe a different statin would not give you the muscle pains?

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25364
   Posted 1/9/2011 11:28 AM (GMT -6)   
Mel, even if you do everything on your list above, its not logical or realistic to think that any or all of it would make a measurable notice in 30 days, I think you already know this. I would do the next PSA test a full 30 days from the last one, at the same lab, of course, for consistency sake.

I just read Jame's post, I doubt that you number will drop any from this point, the question is how much velocity beyond the last reading.

David in SC
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10

daveshan
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 363
   Posted 1/9/2011 12:09 PM (GMT -6)   
Sounds good Mel,

I think JNF pretty well nailed what you can hope to get out of any diet/supplement, a slowing of progression and a less beneficial host for the cancer. Not a KO punch but might weaken/slow it a bit.
Best of luck
Dave in Durango CO

Fairwind
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Date Joined Jul 2010
Total Posts : 3631
   Posted 1/9/2011 12:10 PM (GMT -6)   
I wish I could buy some stock in Vitamin Cottage.....I missed out on Whole Foods...

BB_Fan
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Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 1011
   Posted 1/9/2011 2:28 PM (GMT -6)   
Compiler, If you haven't already you should really read Dr Myers book on hormone therapy and diet. I was totally freaked out when I had my BCR last March. Myer's plan for managing advanced PCa makes alot of sense. At least it did to me. BB
Dx PCa Dec 2008 at 56, PSA 3.4
Biopsy: T1c, Geason 7 (3+4) - 8 cores, 4 positive, 30% of all 4 cores.
Robotic Surgery March 2009 Hartford Hospital, Dr Wagner
Pathology Report: T2c, Geason 8, organ confined, negitive margins, lymph nodes negitive - tumor volume 9%, nerves spared, no negitive side effects of surgery.
PSA's < .01, .01, .07, .28, .50. HT 5/10. IMRT 9/10.
PSA's post HT .01, < .01

Piano
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Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 847
   Posted 1/9/2011 2:51 PM (GMT -6)   
Mel, good luck with your testing. From one skeptic to another: don't expect great things, but you never know...
No symptoms; PSA 5.7; Gleason 4+5=9; cancer in 4/12 cores
Non-nerve-sparing RRP 7 March 2008 age 63
Organ confined, neg margins. Gleason downgrade 4+4=8
Fully continent
Bimix worked well; now using just VED
PSA undetectable at first but now 0.3, doubling time 7 months
No radiation but ADT coming unless I can slow down the rise...

Casey59
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Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 3172
   Posted 1/9/2011 4:30 PM (GMT -6)   
compiler said...
...realistically, even if this stuff works, would anything good happen in 30 days? I wish I could give it 2-3 months, but I don't have that kind of time.
 

I agree with you, Mel, that it seems largely unrealistic to have progression first slow down, then stop, and then reverse in 30 days in the same way that it did for patients of Drs Carroll/Ornish after one year of nutrition, exercise and stress reduction.  Unfortunately, we can’t turn back the clock to the day after you received your surgical pathology report so that you could get more of a “running start.”

I know you are a math-guy, so I’m pretty sure you know how to properly read statistical box plots.  This chart (click HERE) shows the divergence of results in the Carroll/Ornish study, but as I said it was after one year…1/12th of the impact would hardly be noticeable. 

But, from my perspective, the counter-intuitive question seems to be:  Why rush your next PSA?  Or more specifically, why are you going to give yourself just 30 days?  As I previously relayed to you, and your oncologist visit confirmed, BCR is after a second confirmed PSA result greater than 0.2ng/mL...you have not yet had one.  So when I put myself in your shoes and do a little scenario “what-ifs”, I don’t see any reason to think of it in the context of a short-term experiment lasting only 30-days.  The short-term experiment approach has the same mentality as “going on a diet”, which inevitably fails as one “goes off their diet.”

Rather than thinking about a short-term experiment, think of it as launching your lifestyle change…changes which you probably already knew would promote your own long-term health, but perhaps took a cancer diagnosis to motivate you into action.  Whether you eventually have SRT or not, don’t you want to undertake steps to promote your own long-term health?  Or, is SRT not motivation enough, and would you wait until HT looms?

Realistically, if I was in your shoes, I would be thinking in terms of a series of multiple PSA tests with increased frequency stretching over multiple upcoming months…not just one PSA test in 30-days from now.  You will have several tests before your medical team declares BCR (if that ever happens), so why would you think that you should stop doing the things that stack the odds in your favor (nutrition, exercise, stress reduction) after just 30-days?

 

What commitment are you making to yourself to go to the gym?  Some type of tracking and "public" commitment helps most people stay committed...


geezer99
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Date Joined Apr 2009
Total Posts : 990
   Posted 1/9/2011 4:50 PM (GMT -6)   
Your program is certainly one that makes sense -- even if not beyond a reasonable doubt. What seemed to be missing was exercise. Strengthening your body, strengthens everything including your immune system.

The magnet on our refrigerator says "Jog -- die very healthy" Our son, deeply into fitness, has been leading us on after dinner walks. He says it is good for the dog, but I suspect other motives.

Red Nighthawk
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 289
   Posted 1/9/2011 4:56 PM (GMT -6)   
Mel,
I wish you well on this new journey. You are taking things into your own hands rather than just sitting there letting things happen. You'll feel empowered and hence good about yourself in that you are doing something positive for your health. I've mentioned before that I have a friend who has been on AS for 8 years. He does not cheat, and that, I think, is his secret. He does all the right things, eats all the right healthy foods, avoids red meat, sugar, and white foods. Drinks his pom juice and green tea. Exercises every day. He does not cheat. If you are going to do this, go all the way and see the results. Lose the pizza, avoid the steak. Try to blitz your body with healthy foods, including tomato sauce with garlic. If your PSA does not increase, isn't that a good thing? Doesn't it mean your possible BCR has been stalled? It is too bad you didn't start this from the get-go, but better late than never. Good luck. Eating a healthy and delicious diet sure is worth it if you can avoid radiation.

peace,
john

Post Edited (Red Nighthawk) : 1/9/2011 5:21:23 PM (GMT-7)


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25364
   Posted 1/9/2011 5:07 PM (GMT -6)   
Mel,

Don't let all of this diet talk get you into the mind set of "blame me" if you have BCR. You didn't cause your PC in the first place. If you do have BCR, it's because cancer got left behind, you do have a positive margin like I did. It won't have anything to do with what you ate or didn't eat post surgery, can't believe anyone would really believe that. You are 64 years old per your stats, and the's an entire lifetime of eating and eating habits.

Secondly, the .20 to BCR is not accepted as a fact by all radiation doctors and clinics, and I am certainly not telling you not to listen to your medical team (I am a big believer in being compliant when possible). Every one I spoke to in my local area, judged BCR post prostate surgery as 3 rises above .10, not .20. Perhaps not a big point to some ,but can be a big point in determining how effective SRT might be, based, among other things, pre-surgery and post-surgery PSA velocity, and other factors.

Cancer is not about the blame game, and its not about the quick fix after the fact. You have enough to worry about in your situation without making yourself feel bad about what you ate or didnt eat, or if you exercised enough. We have plenty of men here that ate pretty healthy diets for years, and by their own claims, were work out freaks, and it didnt stop any of them from getting PC.
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10

compiler
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 7197
   Posted 1/9/2011 5:10 PM (GMT -6)   
geezer -- EXERCISE is not missing. Reread my post.
 
Casey -- Before this PC I was a regular at the gym. Since PC, I have had some stretches of a few weeks where I didn't go (some other brief maladies and probably some periods of being a bit depressed).
My usual gym routine is 50-90 minutes on the treadmill (about 3.2-3.9 mph totally 7-12 laps). I then do assorted nautalus-type machines for another 45 minutes. I do this on average 2.5 times a week, WHEN I GET IN THE GROOVE. The bronchitis threw me for a loop. I did get back in today and managed a full workout.
 
Casey, my PSA is rising sharply. I just don't feel I have that much time to stall around. I guess if the PSA velocity showed some sign of abating, then I might delay matters. You know, one advantage of the ultra-sensitive test is that it gave me a heads-up on what is going on. I would not wait for TWO readings above 0.20. The handwriting is on the wall. That's just my thinking on this. The doctor I saw at Ford was pretty clear...in being unclear. He quoted the "official AUA" BCR criteria, but at the same time indicated that the PC was back and at the same time indicated he has had some patients (but not many) who have this PSA rise and then it suddenly stops. He also indicated that I should see a radiation oncologist and also indicated that starting now would not be wrong although I could also wait. Really clear!!!
 
Anyway, I'm giving this a shot, but I don't have time (in my opinion) to give it a fair shot.
 
Mel

Casey59
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Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 3172
   Posted 1/9/2011 6:11 PM (GMT -6)   

OK

How about if we make a commitment together for a real change...go to the gym 5 days per week, not 2.5...for the next 30 days minimum?  We can keep track of each other.  I'll email you later (I'm on my blackberry now).

Anyone else want to get in on this?  We could get creative with it...


Carlos
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 486
   Posted 1/9/2011 6:54 PM (GMT -6)   
Ok Casey and Mel,  You guys are going to have to step on it to keep up with the old man.  I have been on a heart healthy diet and have exercised on a regular basis for the last 15 yrs.  I am in better health and feel better than I ever have.  I have also started using several  supplements.    I'm 74 now, don't have anything to lose and a lot to gain.  Stick with it Mel.  Casey, thanks for posting all the diet and supplement links.
 
Carlos

Dx 2/2008, age 71, PSA 9.1, G8,T1c. daVinci surgery 5/2008, G8(5+3), pT2c. LFPF, good QOL. PSA <0.1 for 2 yrs. PSA rose to .2 at 30 months, started SRT 12/15/2010.

Grinnell86
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2010
Total Posts : 265
   Posted 1/9/2011 6:54 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi Mel,
          I'm in the same boat as you.  My DaVinci surgery in February, 2010 went well.  I had no bad side effects, and I was back to work and skiing within 3 weeks.  My PSA's were 05/10=<.05, 8/10=.12, 9/10 .10, 12/10 .16.  My urologist consulted with Dr. Crawford in Denver, and, without hesitation, he recommended radiation.  I asked my uro if I can try some pomegranate and other options, and he said that I still have a few months before we need to take action with the radiation.  I have been taking 3-350mg pomegranate extract capsules daily, plus 1000mg of fish oil, and 3- 1200mg capsules of lecithin daily since just before Christmas.  I wash this all down with pomegranate juice.  My next PSA test is in 2 weeks.  I am hoping that it stays below .20, and I will go another month and hope for a reduction.  If I don't see any encouraging results, then I will do the radiation.  Let's hope the pomegranate works for both of us.
                                                                     Paul
 

Red Nighthawk
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 289
   Posted 1/9/2011 7:11 PM (GMT -6)   
Paul, I'd do the same thing. You have a good plan and I hope it works. Please keep us informed because what you are doing is extremely interesting to me and hopefully others.

peace,

john
Age: 63
Gleason grade: 3+4=7, pT2c NX MX
Robotic RP: Sept. 15th, 2009
No lymphatic/vascular invasion, seminal vesicles, margins tumor free.
Pre surgery PSA: 4.1
Post surgery PSA's: .04, .03, .02, .05, .02
ED: Improvement slow but there are positive signs. No incontinent issues.
Surgery: Dr. Jim Hu. Dana-Farber/Brigham and Women's, Boston

Tim G
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Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 2287
   Posted 1/9/2011 7:21 PM (GMT -6)   
Mel,
 
Exercise isn't a cure-all, but it sure helps in many ways.   I'm not a gym rat, but regularly  do aerobic exercise, weights, and flexibility exercises at home.   Being in good shape (and my age) helped me recover quickly from  prostate surgery, helps my mood and sleep and, who knows, it may even be helping prevent a recurrence of PCa.
 
Diet, while essential, is not as effective if it is not combined with exercise of the right kind to strengthen the cardiovascular system, joints, and muscles.  At our age, a 50/50 proportion of aerobic and muscle strengthening exercises is good. 
 
If you need some help getting started, the American College of Sports Medicine is a good resource.  Their quarterly Fit Society newsletters are informative.  www. acsm.org 

PSA quadrupled in one year (0.6 to 2.6)
DRE negative Retested at 3 months
1 of 12 biopsies positive (< 5%) G6
RP open surgery June 2006 at age 57
Bilateral nerve-sparing
Organ-confined to small area, downgraded to G5
Prostate weight 34 grams
PSAs < 0.1

Skate
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2010
Total Posts : 424
   Posted 1/9/2011 7:30 PM (GMT -6)   

OK Casey and Mel;  I'm in for the exercise challenge.  I try to get to the gym at least 4X a week with "power yoga" once a week.  Treadmill 30 minutes at 4.2, nautalus  workouts and free weights. What's our first goal?

jack


Age 59 at Diagnosis
01/08 PSA 4.17 DRE showed node
03/08 RP - Nerve Sparing, margins clear, no invasion
Continent 3 weeks post surgery / ED
06/08 until 08/09 PSA 0.01
08/09 PSA .14
09/09 RT / 36 treatments
01/10 PSA .13
08/10 PSA .6
10/10 PSA 1.67
08/11/10 PSA 3.44
16/11/10 Casodex Blockade
14/12 /10 Finished Casodex
30/11/10 Zoladex ADT
ED only SE

compiler
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 7197
   Posted 1/9/2011 7:48 PM (GMT -6)   
Sorry guys. It's twice a week for me, maybe 3 times.
 
I actually have bad knees (knee surgery in 2008 for 2 tears in meniscus and for arthritis -- did wonders, but it lets me know when I overdo it).
 
But, thanks for egging me on. I still need to DO IT WITHOUT GETTING SIDETRACKED. Before PC, I would sometimes get in the zone, where I didn't feel right if I neglected going to the gym.
 
Mel (Sorry, I can't go to the gym today; I have a hangnail!)

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25364
   Posted 1/9/2011 8:29 PM (GMT -6)   
My twice a week visit to the Outpatient Physical Therapy is about as much as I can bear these days, and its still a slow going process.
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10

Jerry L.
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2010
Total Posts : 3049
   Posted 1/9/2011 9:26 PM (GMT -6)   
Mel,

This is far out there, but I wonder how effective Abierterone would be. I realize it may not be ready for prime time yet, but in an earlier post someone mentioned a possible way to get it.
.
Nov. 2009 Dx at Age 44
Dec. 2009 DaVinci Robotic Surgery
Jan. 2010 T3b, Gleason 9
Feb. 2010 Adjuvant Radiation

PSA History:
-----------------
Nov. 2009 4.30
Feb. 2010 <.05
May 2010 <.05
Aug. 2010 <.05
Nov. 2010 <.05

Casey59
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 3172
   Posted 1/9/2011 9:35 PM (GMT -6)   

Ok, Skate, excellent.  I'm going to start an online weekly log here, starting tomorrow.  Just follow my lead.  Let's start simple:  Goal is to hit the gym 5 times between tomorrow (Monday) and the following Sunday.

I'd like to hear from some more guys willing to strive for that goal and will join in the online log!  Aim high.  We're going to do it for 30-days...well, maybe 28-days, or 4-weeks (which will include a 4-day vacation to the Florida Keys, for me).

And I'm not buying the arthritis bit, Mel.  I had two total knee reconstructions (same right knee) before I was 25 years old.  Back then, they called it "triple death"; now, in our more 'sensitive' society, it's called the "unhappy triad."  Don't know what the "unhappy triad" is?  Look it up HERE.   After 25+ years after surgery, it's bone-on-bone.  You should have seen how the arthritis in that knee lit up my bone scan!  Blew out the left one and had it reconstructed about 10 years ago...and as a result, I do still have one good knee (the left one).  Also, a un-repaired herniated L5/S1 disk in my back from about 8 years ago...another bright-spot on the bone scan. 

Saw an article in today's USA Today Weekend (the small supplement in Sunday's paper) titled "Don't let arthritis slow you down"....no kidding, it was today.  You can read it yourself HERE, but it quoted a study in the journal Arthritis Care & Research which shows that although it may seem counter-intuitive, aerobic exercise every day will the reduce pain, and make you more mobile as you age.  Even if it's walking, water aerobics or biking.  So, I don't want to hear about arthritis.

C'mon, Mel.  ADT-Skate and I are in.  Who else is in?

Look for my new thread tomorrow, Skate...then just follow my lead.

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