Is soy milk really better for us than milk?

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proscapt
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   Posted 3/31/2011 5:34 PM (GMT -6)   
We've all heard that we should cut back on dairy products, and by that they mean all dairy products, not just cream/butter. Even skim milk consumption has been shown to correlate with PC.

So I was looking at the soy milk in the fridge and noticing that it has calcium added (calcium carbonate) and Vitamin A palmitate added. Now, I recall reading somewhere that there's speculation that either the calcium or the Vit. A are what are actually why milk is problematic. And there's some form of sugar in there as well, which we all know is basically cancer food.

So I'm wondering now... soy milk isn't milk, but perhaps it is made by taking something good for us (soy) and then adding a bunch of the same things that make milk bad for us. Is it really any better for us overall?

Swimom
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   Posted 3/31/2011 5:43 PM (GMT -6)   
Too much soy can be not so good for men I thought. Soy acts similar to estrogen in quantity if I remember the studies correctly.
Might be worth investigating anyway. I buy only organic milk and dairy..except for cheeses usually. The family much prefers organic fat free milk over the cheaper 1% or 1/2%. Its shelf-life is longer too.
 Hilarem datorum diligit Deus

tatt2man
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Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 2842
   Posted 3/31/2011 5:50 PM (GMT -6)   
I feel that the use of soy beverage may have played a part in my good numbers and especially the decrease in my PSA level from 0.05 to 0.02.

internet website said...
Prostate cancer

Consumption of isoflavone-rich soy foods has also been linked to positive benefits regarding prostate cancer. It has been observed that prostate tumors grow slowly in Japanese men and the tumors are less likely to become life-threatening 14. To understand this relationship better, studies have been done in test tubes and in animals, whereby isoflavones have been shown to inhibit the growth of prostate cancer cells in test tubes and to slow the development of prostate tumors in animals.


here is the full site: www.drinksilk.ca/isoflavones.php

Mind you, some other sites talk about the alleged bad stuff about soy products, including the estrogen effects on weight gain and muscle loss.

---------------------------------
-the following is personal hypothesis -

And on a side note, years ago, there was a German study about "the biological cause of homosexuals" and their conclusion was that during the first trimester, if the woman carrying the fetus was subject to stress ( ie. unwanted pregnancy, domestic problems, etc) her body created more estrogen which affected the development of the brain and its gender-specific wiring....
...And their proof was when they subjected two study groups - one gay, one straight - to estrogen injection - the straight group reacted strongly ( like side effects of PCa HT) , and the gay group (due to the brain's wiring) did not react at all and assimilated the estrogen.
.....................................

-so maybe, due to the consumption of the soy beverage, along with my other supplements, the estrogen effect on me not only slowed any PCa growth but actually reduced its numbers.

-I will be maintaining my current regiment - along with reducing my weight -and will compare numbers when I get my next PSA in March 2012.

-wishing you all the best.
long winded hugs,
BRONSON
....
p.s. I hope my hypothesis doesn't freak anybody out or offend them - that is not the point of the matter .
- I am still amazed that my numbers went DOWN without any treatment - and if I can help create an understanding of why that occurred - maybe it can help other prostate cancer survivors keep their numbers down ....

sincere hugs,
me
...
Age:55 -gay with spouse of 14 years, Steve -Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
PSA:10/06/09 3.86
Biopsy:10/16/09- 6 of 12 cancerous samples, Gleason 7 (4+3)
Radical Prostatectomy:11/18/09
Pathology:pT3a -Gleason 7 -extraprostatic extension -perineural invasion -prostate weight -34.1 gm
PSA:04/08/10 -0.05 -Zero Club
PSA:09/23/10 -0.05 -Zero Club
PSA:03/24/11 -0.02 -Zero Club
PSA:03/24/12- TBA

Post Edited (tatt2man) : 3/31/2011 6:33:44 PM (GMT-6)


compiler
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 7205
   Posted 3/31/2011 6:03 PM (GMT -6)   
Oh CRAP. I use fat-free soy milk with my cereal.
 
Let's face it, you can't win.
 
Mel

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25380
   Posted 3/31/2011 7:05 PM (GMT -6)   
I still contend that soy milk is only suitable for baby soy beans, and when did soy beans become a mammal anyway?
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 2/11 1.24
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/10,

davidg
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Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 4093
   Posted 3/31/2011 7:05 PM (GMT -6)   
do these dietary restrictions matter once our prostate has been removed?

lifeguyd
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Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 677
   Posted 3/31/2011 7:59 PM (GMT -6)   
tatt2man said...
I feel that the use of soy beverage may have played a part in my good numbers and especially the decrease in my PSA level from 0.05 to 0.02.

internet website said...
Prostate cancer

Consumption of isoflavone-rich soy foods has also been linked to positive benefits regarding prostate cancer. It has been observed that prostate tumors grow slowly in Japanese men and the tumors are less likely to become life-threatening 14. To understand this relationship better, studies have been done in test tubes and in animals, whereby isoflavones have been shown to inhibit the growth of prostate cancer cells in test tubes and to slow the development of prostate tumors in animals.


here is the full site: www.drinksilk.ca/isoflavones.php

Mind you, some other sites talk about the alleged bad stuff about soy products, including the estrogen effects on weight gain and muscle loss.

---------------------------------
-the following is personal hypothesis -

And on a side note, years ago, there was a German study about "the biological cause of homosexuals" and their conclusion was that during the first trimester, if the woman carrying the fetus was subject to stress ( ie. unwanted pregnancy, domestic problems, etc) her body created more estrogen which affected the development of the brain and its gender-specific wiring....
...And their proof was when they subjected two study groups - one gay, one straight - to estrogen injection - the straight group reacted strongly ( like side effects of PCa HT) , and the gay group (due to the brain's wiring) did not react at all and assimilated the estrogen.
.....................................

-so maybe, due to the consumption of the soy beverage, along with my other supplements, the estrogen effect on me not only slowed any PCa growth but actually reduced its numbers.

-I will be maintaining my current regiment - along with reducing my weight -and will compare numbers when I get my next PSA in March 2012.

-wishing you all the best.
long winded hugs,
BRONSON
....
p.s. I hope my hypothesis doesn't freak anybody out or offend them - that is not the point of the matter .
- I am still amazed that my numbers went DOWN without any treatment - and if I can help create an understanding of why that occurred - maybe it can help other prostate cancer survivors keep their numbers down ....

sincere hugs,
me
...
 
 
 
Well Bronson I am sort of confused eyes ..Ya see, I have this homosexual daughter and her mother claims when she was pregnant she never was stressed or drank any soy or smoked or drank alcohol or exercised too much (or too little) or had no domestic discord or wore pink tights. We just sort of figured out that this daughter likes girls better than boys.OK cool   with me.  The girl (now a woman of 40) is a high end University administrator who is brilliant, sweet, helpful, considerate..all that stuff.  She does keep too many cats and other animals, but who is perfect.  What was the question? turn

tatt2man
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 2842
   Posted 3/31/2011 8:08 PM (GMT -6)   
- I am so pleased with your great description of your daughter, even though has too many cats -

- I find it very intriguing why some stage 2 guys have a rapid PCa while others don't- and some who have stage 3 - gleason 7 have SRT and others ( like myself) don't....
-it also relates to how some men do well with HT and others have more severe reactions to the treatment.

-thank you for your understanding, humour and being a great dad to your daughter.

hugs,
BRONSON

Post Edited (tatt2man) : 3/31/2011 8:52:37 PM (GMT-6)


tatt2man
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Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 2842
   Posted 3/31/2011 8:11 PM (GMT -6)   
Davidg:
- from what I have read, it helps promote a balanced body - and if affected by cancers, breast cancer, prostate cancer, etc, the estrogen in the soy beverage ( it is not a milk) is of benefit.
- quite possibly soy beverage may help someone on AS ....

-there seems to be an almost equal amount of pro- and anti- soy websites....

hugs,
BRONSON

Post Edited (tatt2man) : 3/31/2011 9:01:38 PM (GMT-6)


Sephie
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Date Joined Jun 2008
Total Posts : 1804
   Posted 4/1/2011 6:34 AM (GMT -6)   
Bronson, soy milk for women with breast or uterine cancers can be problematic. There are different types of breast cancer - classified as ER+ or ER- (ER = estrogen receptive). If a woman has ER+ breast cancer, she should avoid soy like the plague since it mimics estrogen and that is what you do not want. I believe the same is true for uterine/endometrial cancers.

My brother-in-law who follows a somewhat famous on-line holistic doctor says that the key with soy is how it is processed. I don't remember exactly what he said but apparently there are different ways of processing the soy that can make it beneficial or can make it dangerous. Most of the soy products on the market are not processed properly and are not really doing anyone much good (his opinion, not mine).

The point of my post is that soy is good for some medical conditions and bad for others. No cancer patient should make the decision to add soy-based products to their diet without first discussing with their medical team.

davidg
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Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 4093
   Posted 4/1/2011 6:38 AM (GMT -6)   
I think I need to explore long term changes in my diet. We eat healthy ( mostly products from Whole Foods ) but we have not given up red meat and sugar. I probably need to curb those. I only have skim milk in my tea so don't consume too much of it. I do like imported cheeses however. Couldn't live without parmiggiano Reggiano.

tatt2man
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 2842
   Posted 4/1/2011 6:56 AM (GMT -6)   
Sephie - thank you so much for the clarification - this is all still such a learning experience - which includes types of prostate cancer that are hormone resistant, etc.

-and I agree, Sephie that as with any change in diet, supplement, etc., always check with your doctor or pharmacist
- mind you, my local pharmacist was not fully aware that Pomegranate juice can be lethal if combined with use of statins ( crestor, lipitor) and he said he would do more personal research on that subject - and my urologist/surgeon appeared not to be aware of the side effects of viagra ( tinnitus/ ringing in the ears)...

- and to complicate things - here is an article in a recent GLOBE & MAIL newspaper -
www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/ask-a-health-expert/ask-a-dietitian/i-survived-cancer-what-should-i-be-eating-now/article1924437/

-caveat emptor -

hugs,
BRONSON
Age:55 -gay with spouse of 14 years, Steve -Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
PSA:10/06/09 3.86
Biopsy:10/16/09- 6 of 12 cancerous samples, Gleason 7 (4+3)
Radical Prostatectomy:11/18/09
Pathology:pT3a -Gleason 7 -extraprostatic extension -perineural invasion -prostate weight -34.1 gm
PSA:04/08/10 -0.05 -Zero Club
PSA:09/23/10 -0.05 -Zero Club
PSA:03/24/11 -0.02 -Zero Club
PSA:03/24/12- TBA

Post Edited (tatt2man) : 4/1/2011 7:00:09 AM (GMT-6)


Ed C. (Old67)
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Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 2458
   Posted 4/1/2011 7:41 AM (GMT -6)   
I have been using soy milk with my cereal every morning for the last 4 years. It is not a lot, may be half a cup.
Age: 67 at Dx on 12/30/08 PSA 3.8
2 cores out of 12 were positive Gleason (4+4)
Davinci surgery 2/9/09 Gleason 4+4 EPE,
Margins clear, nerve bundles removed
Prostate weighed 57 grams 10-20% involved
all PSA tests since (2, 5, 8, 11, 15, 18, 21 months) undetectable
Latest PSA test (2 years) <.008 ?

logoslidat
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 5828
   Posted 4/1/2011 9:24 AM (GMT -6)   
I was was advised by a gal fm the gym, whose knowledge, I respect, that to get organic soy only. And the the estrogen, tho, generally may not be good, it was in PCA cases, think hormones. I have it with cereal and bluberries alot and will continue to do so. Also read somewhere???, that fat free milk is worse than the fattier ones. Go figure!
Diagnosed 8/14/09 psa 8.1 66,now 67
2cores 70%, rest 6-7 < 5%
gleason 3+ 3, up to 3+4 @ the dub
RPP U of Wash, Bruce Dalkin,
pathology 4+3, tertiary5, 2 foci
extensive pni, prostate confined,27 nodes removed -, svi - margins -
99%continent@ cath removal. 1% incont@gaspass,sneeze,cough 18 mos, squirt @ running. psa std test reported on paper as 0.0 as of 12/14/10 ed improving

anxiety out the roof
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 111
   Posted 4/1/2011 12:37 PM (GMT -6)   
If soy is so bad, why don't Asians have some of the cancer westeners get?

logoslidat
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 5828
   Posted 4/1/2011 12:55 PM (GMT -6)   
according to the same girl in the gym , what anxiety said abv reflects well on soy, but also explains, why a high proportion of asian men tend to have smoother features, softerskin, etc
Diagnosed 8/14/09 psa 8.1 66,now 67
2cores 70%, rest 6-7 < 5%
gleason 3+ 3, up to 3+4 @ the dub
RPP U of Wash, Bruce Dalkin,
pathology 4+3, tertiary5, 2 foci
extensive pni, prostate confined,27 nodes removed -, svi - margins -
99%continent@ cath removal. 1% incont@gaspass,sneeze,cough 18 mos, squirt @ running. psa std test reported on paper as 0.0 as of 12/14/10 ed improving

Sephie
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Date Joined Jun 2008
Total Posts : 1804
   Posted 4/1/2011 4:53 PM (GMT -6)   
Anxiety, the Asian population has a totally different diet that us Westerners (and they are likely far more active). Lots of fish and veges, rice, practically no soda or sugared drinks, tea (which has excellent antioxidant qualities) and soy. I imagine the soy products consumed there are different (e.g., more natural) that what we have. And, obesity is not an issue in the Far East whereas it's a huge problem in the Western world...we all know that obesity contributes to a long list of medical problems including cancer.
Husband diagnosed in 2/2008 at age 57 with stage T1c. Robotic surgery performed 3/2008. Stage upgraded to T3a (solitary focus of extraprostatic extension). Perineural tumor infiltration present. Apex margin, bladder neck and SVs negative. Final Gleason 3+4. PSA: 0.0 til July 2009. August 2009 - 0.1, September 0.3, October back to 0.0, December 0.0, March 2010 0.0, September 2010 0.0.

Tim G
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 2301
   Posted 4/1/2011 5:33 PM (GMT -6)   
The best kinds of milk, with no known negatives and many positive benefits, are wallaby's milk and goat's milk. If you want to keep up with all the latest scientific studies, The Journal of Irreproducible Results will have them. I've been a reader of this journal for many years. A number of posts on this forum, particularly those related to diet and prostate cancer, are probably from this journal.

Post Edited (TimG) : 4/1/2011 5:57:42 PM (GMT-6)


davidg
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Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 4093
   Posted 4/1/2011 5:51 PM (GMT -6)   
Asians also drink and smoke a ton.

proscapt
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Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 644
   Posted 4/2/2011 3:23 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks for all the insights (and humor...) It seems this is still a very much unresolved issue with a lot of arguments on both sides.
DX age 54 12/2009
PSA 5.6, DRE-, high pre-op PSAV. Clinical stage T1c
Biopsy: Gleason 3+4 with PNI / 6 of 14 cores + / 10% of total length + / worst 45% +
DaVinci RP 2/2010
pT2cNx / Gleason 3+4 / PNI+ / SM- / SV- / EPE- / Tumor vol 3cc / vol 40cc / 63 gm
PSA - 4/10 <0.01, 8/10 0.01, 12/10 0.01, 3/11 0.01

JNF
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Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 3753
   Posted 4/2/2011 6:26 PM (GMT -6)   
Cow's milk is great for baby cows. Whale milk for baby whales. Rat milk for baby rats......soy milk for baby soys???.......why is it that humans are the only animal that continues to drink milk, but not from our mothers? In nature, milk is only for infants and the biggest advabntage is the colustrum just after birth. Milk is fed until teeth come in....then animals wean.

Common sense is not to be drinking a bunch of milk. Our drinking of milk is the biggest marketing hoax ever.

Over a 20 year period I lived (and raised my American family of a wife and three sons) in Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, China, and Korea. Not once did I see anyone drink milk or soy milk....except for people from America, UK, Eurpoe, and Australia.

The Asians eat tofu, soy bean sprouts, soy sauce, and miso. They do not drink milk, soy milk, or eat butter, cottage cheese, sour cream, cheese. etc. If we want to understand the positive aspects of soy, then do just what the Asians do.
PSA 59 on 8-26-2010 age 60. Biopsy 9-8-2010 12/12 positive, 20-80% involved, PNI in 3 cores, G 3+3,3+4,and 4+3=G7, T2b.
Eligard shot and daily Jalyn started on 10-7-2010.
IMRT to prostate and lymph nodes 25 fractions started on 11-8-2010, HDR Brachytherapy 12-6 and 13-2010.
PSA <.1 and T 23 on 2-3-2011.

logoslidat
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 5828
   Posted 4/2/2011 8:13 PM (GMT -6)   
JNF, with respect, if they are eating all the soy you say which I believe they are, the fact that they don't " drink " soy
" milk " is not relevent to the point, imo. Soy is Soy in any form. The term "milk " is again, imo, a marketing tool to get milk folks to switch to Soy bean products. The fact that your string of babies end in an obvious non-entity is that Soy in any form is a vegetable and Milk is animal product ,hence the concern. I totally agree in your statements about
no need for milk after infancy. I do indulge in animal products, but sparingly and am a big believer in " proper diet "
as a hedge against cancer of any kind. And dairy products are a big no no for me in that view. I personally believe that soy is good for pca survivors with the organic caveat, just cause I lrespect the gal from my Gym and organic is easy enough
Diagnosed 8/14/09 psa 8.1 66,now 67
2cores 70%, rest 6-7 < 5%
gleason 3+ 3, up to 3+4 @ the dub
RPP U of Wash, Bruce Dalkin,
pathology 4+3, tertiary5, 2 foci
extensive pni, prostate confined,27 nodes removed -, svi - margins -
99%continent@ cath removal. 1% incont@gaspass,sneeze,cough 18 mos, squirt @ running. psa std test reported on paper as 0.0 as of 12/14/10 ed improving
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