Seed side effects

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Gleason 6
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Date Joined Mar 2011
Total Posts : 876
   Posted 4/6/2011 8:09 AM (GMT -6)   
It seems as if the seed guys are pretty happy with their results (as are many of the RP guys).  It does seem though that the side effects are much less with seeds than RP.  Am I missing something?  It seems like with the seeds, the proceedure is much less invasive, you are out of work less time, no problem with ED or urinating, no cath, no leakage...
 
I know that seeds are not an option for everyone and there are differing opinions on the long term outcome (and I am not trying to start another debate on that), just wondering about the side effects.

fulltlt
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2010
Total Posts : 264
   Posted 4/6/2011 8:51 AM (GMT -6)   
Side effects? What side effects?

I have to admit only one side effect that I have as a result of the IMRT. I have wet farts sometimes. I can deal with that.

The seeds seem to have had no effect on me as of yet.

I missed 1 day of work to have the seeds implanted. I took Friday off and had the proceedure in the morning. My wife and I went out to lunch afterwards. She had to drive because I had been under anesthesia. I rested the weekend and was back to work on Monday.

I had an urgency problem a couple of days ago while pumping gas at Walmart. They have no bathroom there. With the sound of the running gas going into the tank my I was crossing my legs and my eyes were starting to turn yellow as they say. I had to drive quick over to the Walmart store and run to the bathroom.
I never wetted my pants though. I think the incident is unrelated to my seed implants or IMRT. I have had that kind of thing happen before I had all this.
age 57 2/2010
PSA Feb 8.2
biopsy 2/2010 - 2 of 8 left & 2 of 8 right positive, Gleason 3+4=7
attended support group - advised to get a second opinion
second opinion on pathology from Johns Hopkins 4+4=8
PSA 15 4/2010
5 weeks IMRT 4/2010-6/2010 at Copley Hospital in Aurora, IL
91 palladium 103 seeds 7/2010 at Chicago Prostate Center, Westmont, IL
PSA Oct 3.97, Dec 2.78, 3/9/11 2.42

Post Edited (fulltlt) : 4/6/2011 8:17:18 AM (GMT-6)


JNF
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 3883
   Posted 4/6/2011 9:26 AM (GMT -6)   
It is well documented that the side effects are fewer and less severe from brachytherapy. Seeds are the permeanent radiation brachytherapy. HDR is the temporary high dose radiation brachytherapy. HDR leaves nothing in the body and the side effects are even less with HDR than permanent seeds.

I had HDR and IMRT. My treatments stopped just before Christmas.

The IMRT gave me more urinary and bowel frequesncy during the radiarion, but all stopped within two weeks after radiation. I have no urinary or bowel side effects or problems at this point. My only sexual side effect is that my ejaculation amount is about half what it was. Of course after surgery there is no ejaculation.
 
During the two and one-half months of primary treatment (25 IMRT sessions and two HDR procedures) I missed three days of work and one of those was for a colonoscopy.   During the treatment period I worked a full eight hour day in the office and did my IMRT sessions at 6:00pm.   I never had a leak, didn't use a pad, and never had an urinary or bowel emergency or leakage.   I had a bit more frequency and urgency, but adapted well and had no problems.  I had two catheters only during the HDR procedures and they were removed before I left the doctor's office.   The catheters were inless than four hours each time.
PSA 59 on 8-26-2010 age 60. Biopsy 9-8-2010 12/12 positive, 20-80% involved, PNI in 3 cores, G 3+3,3+4,and 4+3=G7, T2b.
Eligard shot and daily Jalyn started on 10-7-2010.
IMRT to prostate and lymph nodes 25 fractions started on 11-8-2010, HDR Brachytherapy 12-6 and 13-2010.
PSA <.1 and T 23 on 2-3-2011.

Post Edited (JNF) : 4/6/2011 8:32:03 AM (GMT-6)


F8
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2010
Total Posts : 3986
   Posted 4/6/2011 9:46 AM (GMT -6)   
if you want to learn about seed side effects you have to ask the guys who've had surgery.  wait a second, you don't even have to ask cool .
 
i had seeds and IGRT....as well as lupron.  i've had plenty of side effects, all tolerable, but i've never peed my pants.  thanks to the lupron i'm not quite sure of erection quality yet but it looks promising.
 
if i were a gleason 6 and i qualified for BT that's the way i would go.
 
ed
 
age: 56
PSA on 12/09: 6.8
gleason 3+4 = 7
HT, BT and IGRT
received 3rd and last lupron shot 9/14/10
2/8/11 PSA <.1, T= 6 ng/dl

John T
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2008
Total Posts : 4268
   Posted 4/6/2011 11:05 AM (GMT -6)   
G6,
I had about 4 weeks of urinary frequency and urgency that was very tolorable and didn't keep me from doing anything that I wanted to do.
2 years later I have no ED, no incontinence, and no bowel issues. This is not to say that you will not have some some effects. ED rates are about 35% and some have stricture issues. Incontinence and bowel issues are extremely rare. Meds like Viagra work very well for ED caused by seeding.
There are a few QOL studies that indicate that as a whole Brachy patients are more pleased with their QOL than patients receiving other treatments.
JohnT
65 years old, rising psa for 10 years from 4 to 40; 12 biopsies and MRIS all negative. Oct 2009 DXed with G6 <5%. Color Doppler biopsy found 2.5 cm G4+3. Combidex clear. Seeds and IMRT, no side affects and psa .1 at 1.5 years.

overthepond
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2011
Total Posts : 648
   Posted 4/6/2011 11:30 AM (GMT -6)   

Dear Gleason 6

Never posted before but have been soaking up all info/support/encouragement from all you wonderful people over the past few months.

When hubbie was diagnosed following a routine health check it was like the rug had been pulled from under us.  Hubbie wanted to ‘wait and see’ – said he’d rather be dead than incontinent/impotent (and he meant it) I said I’d rather have him incontinent/impotent than not at all!

And so our journey began – reading everything we could lay our hands on, met with a surgeon and an oncologist and thankfully, met with a wonderful woman who works as a specialist nurse for the MacMillan Cancer Support, which is a charitable foundation here in the UK.  Given hubbie’s biopsy results, his age, his superb health and zero symptoms/problems thus far she said she really felt that Brachytherapy would be his best route and so we met with Prof Langley at St Luke’s Cancer Centre.

My main reason for joining this forum and replying to your post today Gleason 6 is having read the “Any surgery guys wish they had done radiation instead?” thread earlier, I just couldn’t put it out of my mind – absolutely heart breaking stories and I just know that if hubbie had been pushed into surgery and if he had been suffering as some of you poor guys are at the moment, he wouldn’t be very happy with his lot today.

For us when we had digested all the information on the 3 treatments vs all the possible side effects it was a no brainer – Brachytherapy.

We are now week 8 after implant and he is neither incontinent or impotent – life continues pretty much as normal until his first PSA check end May when, God willing, we will be out celebrating big time!

You have to make your own choice in your own time but please do read everything you can on Brachytherapy before you rule it out.  Who knows if we made the right choice, time will tell, but having read the earlier post I know in my heart that we made the right choice for hubbie.

 Sending you all a hug from over the pond

Xx

Hubbie’s Age 62
Excellent health
First PSA test 7
Second PSA two months later 11
Biopsy results: Gleason 3+3 in two cores (right medial 30% and right apex 90%)
PSA11 with small benign-feeling prostate


Gleason 6
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2011
Total Posts : 876
   Posted 4/6/2011 12:06 PM (GMT -6)   
Do you have to wear a condom after Brachy?
Age 61
PSA 4.3 9/10
PSA 5.5 2/11
PSA 7.1 3/11
Template Biopsy 6 pos out of 40 3/25/11 GS 6

Tudpock18
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Sep 2008
Total Posts : 4271
   Posted 4/6/2011 12:14 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi G6 and also a big WELCOME to overthepond.  Glad to have you with us, over, and glad things are going so well.
 
G6, there are side effects with every treatment but it is fairly well documented that the side effects from brachytherapy are generally less than with surgery.  You can read my "journey" by copying and pasting the link at the bottom of my signature...maybe you already have done so.
 
To summarize, there are two main types of SE's with seeds, urinary and sexual.  If you have serious urinary problems before brachytherapy you may not be a good candidate for the procedure.  However, if you have fairly normal urinary functions for your age, then the most likely urinary SE's from brachy are some urgency and frequency for the first 2-3 months after your procedure.  These are usually easily controlled with Flomax and avoidance of alcohol, caffeine and spicy foods during that time.  Permanent brachy uses two types of seeds...Palladium and Iodine.  The half-life of the Palladium is shorter and the symptoms tend to be a little more severe but end sooner.  In either case, compared to incontinence, the brachy symptoms are hardly worth complaining about.
 
The second potential SE is sexual in the form of ED.  This SE occurs in about 35% of brachytherapy patients (vs. 50% of surgery patients) but does not usually manifest itself until 2 years or so post-procedure.  If it does occur it often can be managed with Viagra, Cialis or Levitra...just like the ED caused by surgery.  There is some evidence that the pills tend to work better with brachy patients because of the lack of trauma to the nerves.  If a patient's sexual performance is ok pre-procedure there is a much better chance of it being ok post-procedure.  I am personally now 2 1/2 years post- and all is well for me in that department.
 
There are other risks of surgery, brachytherapy, IMRT, Cyro or any other treatment that are rare...what I call the edge of the curve.  Personally, I think those rare things are red herrings and I focussed on the big three...cure, urinary symptoms and sexual symptoms.
 
Hope this helps.
 
Tudpock (Jim)
Age 62 (64 now), G 3 + 4 = 7, T1C, PSA 4.2, 2/16 cancerous, 27cc. Brachytherapy 12/9/08. 73 Iodine-125 seeds. Procedure went great, catheter out before I went home, only minor discomfort. Everything continues to function normally as of 12/8/10. PSA: 6 mo 1.4, 1 yr. 1.0, 2 yr. .8. My docs are "delighted"! My journey:
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=35&m=1305643&g=1305643#m1305643

davidg
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 4093
   Posted 4/6/2011 12:27 PM (GMT -6)   
My boss did seeds at Mt. Sinai with Dr. Stock.

He did these after HT.

That's how it was packaged for him.

He's 67.

He lost all libido, went through hot flashes later. He had a catheter in a few times, his doc taught him to take it out and put it back in. He'd come to work with it.

He wet himself many times, including on a train ride out tot he Hamptons, and he was constantly running to the bathroom.

He got through it and his PSA is 0 now.

Tudpock18
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Sep 2008
Total Posts : 4271
   Posted 4/6/2011 12:34 PM (GMT -6)   
G6, please don't be influenced by anecdotal evidence from someone who has second hand info from his boss.  Each patient is different and who the heck knows the details of a second hand case....it may just be made up in any case to try to prove a bias.
 
There are a lot of trusted guys on this site...who have had surgery or radiation...who have studied this disease and will give you the straight scoop.
 
Tudpock (Jim)
Age 62 (64 now), G 3 + 4 = 7, T1C, PSA 4.2, 2/16 cancerous, 27cc. Brachytherapy 12/9/08. 73 Iodine-125 seeds. Procedure went great, catheter out before I went home, only minor discomfort. Everything continues to function normally as of 12/8/10. PSA: 6 mo 1.4, 1 yr. 1.0, 2 yr. .8. My docs are "delighted"! My journey:
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=35&m=1305643&g=1305643#m1305643

davidg
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 4093
   Posted 4/6/2011 12:38 PM (GMT -6)   
you really are paranoid. I lived the experience with my boss and then got the same cancer myself. I gave the doctors name. Now Gleason 6 can call that same doctor from that reputable hospital and ask about those side effects, no? Or perhaps he should just listen to you.

Anecdotal evidence and experience is exactly what is great about sites like this and yana. Then it's up to the patient to discover his journey.

There seems to be a very small and very bitter band of paranoid brothers here with bias and a pack mentality which is not good for people coming here. It's a shame.

Ziggy9
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 981
   Posted 4/6/2011 12:45 PM (GMT -6)   
Tudpock18 said...
G6, please don't be influenced by anecdotal evidence from someone who has second hand info from his boss. Each patient is different and who the heck knows the details of a second hand case....it may just be made up in any case to try to prove a bias.


There are a lot of trusted guys on this site...who have had surgery or radiation...who have studied this disease and will give you the straight scoop.



Tudpock (Jim)


Once again "facts " posted by davidg are laughable. Here's a 67 year old man who is on hormone therapy before seeds? Of course that just drops from davidg's clueless pen without any prior treatment history given. Then he mentions hot flashes as if they are caused by the seeds once again totally clueless that it's far more likely they are caused by the hormone therapy.

Even if true which is in question has nothing to do with a newly diagnosed man simply requesting information about brachytherapy that many here have actually experienced and are qualified to answer.


Mods you have to maybe reign this guy in who seems to be more on an ego trip here that was triggered by our distaste at his doctors marketing. I fear that some new people here may actually think he knows what he is talking about and take it into consideration or worse action.

davidg
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 4093
   Posted 4/6/2011 12:51 PM (GMT -6)   
Yes, there is.

Richard Stock, head of radio oncology.

Phone # ( is that against the rules?) it's not proper form to give out doctors numbers without prior approval from the doctor, especially if being used as a tool for an argument, rather than as sharing information, sorry James C.

Anyway, his advice to my boss was to do a 3 mos hormone suppression treatment. That had side effects explained above. Then 3 mos after that seeds were implanted.

The phone # is up there. Anyone interested should call and find out rather than rely on bad info from limited few here.

Post Edited By Moderator (James C.) : 4/6/2011 12:01:02 PM (GMT-6)


fulltlt
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2010
Total Posts : 264
   Posted 4/6/2011 12:58 PM (GMT -6)   
Gleason 6 said...
Do you have to wear a condom after Brachy?


It is recommended for a week or two after the procedure to catch any seed that may have come loose.
With the new stringed seeds I don't see how this is really possible though.

I can tell you reliably none of my seeds ever came out.
age 57 2/2010
PSA Feb 8.2
biopsy 2/2010 - 2 of 8 left & 2 of 8 right positive, Gleason 3+4=7
attended support group - advised to get a second opinion
second opinion on pathology from Johns Hopkins 4+4=8
PSA 15 4/2010
5 weeks IMRT 4/2010-6/2010 at Copley Hospital in Aurora, IL
91 palladium 103 seeds 7/2010 at Chicago Prostate Center, Westmont, IL
PSA Oct 3.97, Dec 2.78, 3/9/11 2.42

Gleason 6
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2011
Total Posts : 876
   Posted 4/6/2011 12:58 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks and I have read your journey. I only hope that after meeting with my urologist I have some options.
Age 61
PSA 4.3 9/10
PSA 5.5 2/11
PSA 7.1 3/11
Template Biopsy 6 pos out of 40 3/25/11 GS 6

davidg
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 4093
   Posted 4/6/2011 1:00 PM (GMT -6)   
Here you go Gleason - I know you're not in NYC but you can always call the guy for professional advise, I'm sure he would be glad to help. If you want the name of my boss to help you get his attention please email me.

http://www.mountsinai.org/profiles/richard-g-stock

Research
Dr. Stock's specific focus is prostate cancer and prostate brachytherapy. He established a comprehensive prostate cancer database with a corresponding IRB approved protocol to track treatment outcomes following prostate cancer therapies. This has enabled him to obtain important medical information on the growing field of low dose rate brachytherapy and prostate cancer. Dr. Stock's efforts over the past 16 years, which includes 145 peer reviewed and invited papers, and book chapters, have contributed much to our understanding of prostate brachytherapy. He has helped set standards for dosing issues and implant quality. In addition, he has collaborated with other brachytherapy centers to publish multi-institutional series which have further enhanced our understanding of this treatment modality. Working in collaboration with other researchers, Dr. Stock has studied the relationship between genetic mutations and radiation side effects in patients undergoing radiation for prostate cancer. He is a co-investigator on a Department of Defense, American Cancer Society, and NIH RO1 grants to study this new and exciting area of research. In a recent publication in the International Journal of Radiation Oncology Biology Physics, Dr. Stock ranked among the top 4% of academic radiation oncologists in terms of the h-factor, a surrogate score for research productivity.

James C.
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4463
   Posted 4/6/2011 1:02 PM (GMT -6)   
Ok, guys, this discussion is drifting off into arguing and defending. Let's get back on track with the original posters question or drop it.
James C. Age 63
Gonna Make Myself A Better Man tinyurl.com/28e8qcg
4/07: PSA 7.6, 7/07 Biopsy: 3 of 16 PCa, 5% involved, left lobe, GS6
9/07: Nerve Sparing open RP, Path: pT2c, 110 gms., clear except:
Probable microscopic involvement-left apical margin -GS6
3 Years: PSA's .04 each test until 04/10-.06, 09/10-.09, 12/10-.09, 02/11-.08
ED-total-Bimix 30cc

davidg
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 4093
   Posted 4/6/2011 1:05 PM (GMT -6)   
I'm not arguing with anyone. I'm relaying accurate information based on the experience of someone very close to me who did this and providing the contact info of a highly respected professional who can help Gleason gain the understanding he seeks. I thought phone number might be wrong, pasted his bio above and let Gleason know I would be glad to assist via email if he wants.

Gleason could talk to this man and ask about those side effects based on the experience of one of his patients. He can then get an answer about side effects from an expert. Then he could use that locally when he selects a guy down there and compare notes.

Thought it might help him.

James C.
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4463
   Posted 4/6/2011 1:27 PM (GMT -6)   
Note the use of the word guys- plural, I wasn't singling you out.

I feel things are on the verge of anger and wonder whose minds will be changed or if any new info is being provided by this few recent posts?

Guys, let's keep to the original subject, hopefully providing information rather than letting things get out of hand. Sometimes it will be required that we agree to disagree, and stop the discussion. Let's keep personalities out of it. At the end of the day, each of you/us have the right to express their opinion. As long as it is presented as an opinion and not as factual data or info., without saying where you are getting your data/arguing points.
James C. Age 63
Gonna Make Myself A Better Man tinyurl.com/28e8qcg
4/07: PSA 7.6, 7/07 Biopsy: 3 of 16 PCa, 5% involved, left lobe, GS6
9/07: Nerve Sparing open RP, Path: pT2c, 110 gms., clear except:
Probable microscopic involvement-left apical margin -GS6
3 Years: PSA's .04 each test until 04/10-.06, 09/10-.09, 12/10-.09, 02/11-.08
ED-total-Bimix 30cc

mjluke
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 189
   Posted 4/6/2011 2:59 PM (GMT -6)   
I agree with Ziggy- very poor response to the post of Gleason 6 by DavidG--total misinformation and very misleading-
 
I have thoroughly researched this procedure and have met with several men including a doctor who had received Brachytherapy- and have read many stories on this site
 
1- never heard of total loss of libido as a side-effect
2- hot flashes- same thing
3- most times there is no catheter- you wake up- it's gone
4- wetting themselves- that would be extremely rare
 
Gleason 6-  Don't apply one word of DavidG's post to your situation.
 
 
 
63 years old-tumor discovered on digital exam- biopsy December 2008-
4 of 12 samples positive-all on right side
Gleason 3+3=6
PSA-3
Otherwise excellent health.
Brachytherapy- May 19, 2009 -so far, so good.
 
  "There may come a day when the courage of men will fail, but it will not be this day."

JNF
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 3883
   Posted 4/6/2011 3:17 PM (GMT -6)   
Regarding the condom, with HDR it is not necessary as there are no seeds left in the body that might migrate. With both seeds and HDR, the semen will be dark brown due to blood in the prostate for several ejaculations until it clears. May want a condom for that or just have all involved be prepared and not surprised.

Brachytherapy does not cause hot flashes, but HT does. I was started on HT one month before my radiation as part of the adjuvant program due to my stats. The HT has given me hot flashes and will continue to do so for at least the next six months as I get my second Eligard shot tomorrow. Avodart is often given to reduce the size of the prostate to present a more compact target for the insertion of the radiation. Avodart generally does not give you hot flashes. Plus flomax is often given to moderate any urinary concerns. Flomax has mild if any side effects and can actually help reduce blood pressure. I take a combination of Avodart and Flomax in pill called Jalyn.

Seeds and HDR are generally very mild regarding bowel or urnary issues, however IMRT is another story. Perhaps Davidg's boss also had IMRT and caused some urinary distress. That can happen and usually clears after the treatment stops.
PSA 59 on 8-26-2010 age 60. Biopsy 9-8-2010 12/12 positive, 20-80% involved, PNI in 3 cores, G 3+3,3+4,and 4+3=G7, T2b.
Eligard shot and daily Jalyn started on 10-7-2010.
IMRT to prostate and lymph nodes 25 fractions started on 11-8-2010, HDR Brachytherapy 12-6 and 13-2010.
PSA <.1 and T 23 on 2-3-2011.

davidg
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 4093
   Posted 4/6/2011 3:17 PM (GMT -6)   
It's not my word. It's the experience of someone who is treated by one of the best around in one of the best hospitals around. His credentials and contact info is above.

Everyone knows that with HT you loose libido and then get hot flashes when it returns later on.

As I mentioned above, this highly renowned guy feels that you need to combine HT with the seeds.

Ask him why and ask your doctor why you didn't.

Killing the messenger is pretty pointless.

Gleason might want to be getting his info from the best of the best, not random guys on an internet forum who at best can offer their support and personal experiences.

A simple phone call or email to this doc should answer your questions.

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 4/6/2011 3:24 PM (GMT -6)   
What a mess.

I too agree with Ziggy's reply above fully, its one thing for davidg to have his opinions (we all do), but all he is doing is spreading half-truths, and lots of mis-information, and a lot that is just plain not factual. This is different than having an opinion or a first hand experience with something.

JamesC - perhaps you could talk to davidg off line so to speak, i.e. e-mail. In my opinion, he has already given a lot of false information to newcomers here.

david in sc

Post Edited (Purgatory) : 4/6/2011 2:35:42 PM (GMT-6)


John T
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2008
Total Posts : 4268
   Posted 4/6/2011 3:34 PM (GMT -6)   
DavidG,
You just are not credible. Your posts are emotional and not fact based and some of the claims you make are irresponsible. It's time just to sit back and learn instead of making a fool of yourself. You are doing harm to the new patients who come here seeking credible information. I do not like seeing this forum turned into a Circus.
JohnT
65 years old, rising psa for 10 years from 4 to 40; 12 biopsies and MRIS all negative. Oct 2009 DXed with G6 <5%. Color Doppler biopsy found 2.5 cm G4+3. Combidex clear. Seeds and IMRT, no side affects and psa .1 at 1.5 years.

davidg
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 4093
   Posted 4/6/2011 3:38 PM (GMT -6)   
This is where you hurt people coming here to seek help.

I posted exactly what happened to someone and provided the link to the renowned doctor who handled his and thousands of other similar cases.

I find it really amusing how the pack asks the moderators for help when it is the pack which alienates people and does damage to this site.

Happy optimistic people who don't think they own the site should also be contributing and participating. Now you know why so many of them stay away.

I received three emails from regulars here when I first joined warning me about the pack mentality here and how it had alienated them and had been an issue.

You should give it some thought and think about what is best for people who come here seeking help.
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