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davidg
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 4093
   Posted 4/18/2011 9:21 PM (GMT -6)   
Tonight I had a huge cowboy steak at a new steakhouse in our town. It was good, that's for sure.

My question is about dietary restrictions after PCa. More specifically, mainstream agreement on what are considered wise dietary changes after getting PCa.

I don't know how definitive it is, but I've frequently read that one should give up red meat and dairy. Red meat could give up, dairy? not likely. Also, is this supposed to be a point blank absolute denial of these or a moderate approach?

What really confuses me is that you often read about dietary choices that are geared at preventing PCa. But I already had it, and I'm told it was completely eradicated from my body. So does it even matter what I eat these days vis-a-vis PCa specifically?

Also, beer. Had a nice cold Asahi last night. I don't drink often at all, but enjoy a beer from time to time. Why do some consider beer to be bad for PCa patients?

Are there some realistic sensible guidelines?

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25380
   Posted 4/18/2011 9:31 PM (GMT -6)   
I won't answer the dietary part of your question, as it usually starts open warfare. But your doctor should not be telling you at this point that your cancer "was completely eradicated from my body." I hope and pray that part is true, but PC is a strange malady, and its way too early to know that, it will take time, and a good long string of "zeros". If your surgeon literally said that to you, in my opinion, that was wrong and he did you a discervice. No doctor or surgeon or radiation or medical oncologist can tell you with certainty that your cancer has been eradicated from you. That is arrogant and boastful of them at the least.

David in SC

Post Edited (Purgatory) : 4/18/2011 11:09:18 PM (GMT-6)


Piano
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 847
   Posted 4/18/2011 11:04 PM (GMT -6)   
I agree with David (Purg). None of us who have been treated for PCa should regard ourselves as cured. After 15 years without BCR, the odds are much more in your favor, but even then, PCa is not "completely eradicated".

It follows then that diet *might* help in preventing a recurrence. There are other cancers too, colon in particular, where diet is strongly implicated.

Nothing is certain, and opinions are strongly divided for and against. I think the best we can do is weigh the evidence for ourselves, and act accordingly.
No symptoms; PSA 5.7; Gleason 4+5=9; cancer in 4/12 cores
Non-nerve-sparing RRP 7 March 2008 age 63
Organ confined, neg margins. Gleason downgrade 4+4=8
Fully continent
Bimix worked well; now using just VED
PSA undetectable at first but now 0.4, doubling time 7 months
No radiation but ADT coming unless I can slow down the rise...

JNF
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 3753
   Posted 4/18/2011 11:54 PM (GMT -6)   
David,
 
No surgeon can say with certainty that you are cancer free because he can't see the individual cells.   Plus he has no way of knowing whether any cancer cells have escaped and could be blood born.   PCa is very blood born and many experts contend that 50% of men at age 50 have PCa cells detectable in their blood.   One of my clients had a prostetectomy 16 years ago and was pronounced cancer free.   He had undectectible PSA for more than 15 years.   Last year his PSA began rising and he is now on ADT.   The obvious fact is that he was not cancer free. the doctor was wrong, and was irresponsible for making such a statement.   He has been in remission for 15 years but was not cured.   This situation is not uncommon.   No responsible doctor would make such a blanket definitive statement about something he can't measure.
 
At your age I would take experts like Snuffy Meyers and Mark Moyad extremely seriously in order to do everything possible to prolong good health and life.   Good for you that you stopped smoking.   Comparatively speaking, adopting a modified mediteranian diet will be a piece of cake.    Diet clearly matters with PCa, diabetes, blood pressure, heart and artery disease, etc., etc., etc.
PSA 59 on 8-26-2010 age 60. Biopsy 9-8-2010 12/12 positive, 20-80% involved, PNI in 3 cores, G 3+3,3+4,and 4+3=G7, T2b.
Eligard shot and daily Jalyn started on 10-7-2010.
IMRT to prostate and lymph nodes 25 fractions started on 11-8-2010, HDR Brachytherapy 12-6 and 13-2010.
PSA <.1 and T 23 on 2-3-2011.

daveshan
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 363
   Posted 4/19/2011 5:53 AM (GMT -6)   
Purgatory said...
I won't answer the dietary part of your question, as it usually starts open warfare. But your doctor should not be telling you at this point that your cancer "was completely eradicated from my body." I hope and pray that part is true, but PC is a strange malady, and its way too early to know that, it will take time, and a good long string of "zeros". If your surgeon literally said that to you, in my opinion, that was wrong and he did you a discervice. No doctor or surgeon or radiation or medical oncologist can tell you with certainty that your cancer has been eradicated from you. That is arrogant and boastful of them at the least.

David in SC


Quoted for those who may censor themselves

Plus it's probably the truest thing I've seen on this forum.
Dave in Durango CO

07-06 PSA 2.5
01-08 PSA 5.5 (Dr never told me)
09-09 PSA 6.5 (age 55)
12-09 Biopsy, initial Gleason 9 (4+5) later reduced to 8 with tertiary 5
03-01-10 Age 55 RRP in Durango CO by Dr Sejal Quale and Dr Shandra Wilson
03-16-10 Path' G-8 (4+4+5) Bilateral involving 21% of left lobe, 3% of right lobe, SVI, Focal positive margin, pT3b NO MX

All PSA as of 1-25-11 <0.04

davidg
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 4093
   Posted 4/19/2011 6:01 AM (GMT -6)   
my surgeon didn't say that. my doctor did upon reading the report. My surgeon said I had no detectable cancer in my body and that the results of surgery and pathology were as good as they could have been.

This was about diet, not about the desire for my cancer to come back.

There are doctors who say cure, and there are doctors who say remission. I think we all realize that neither of these two camps represents God. We either have good good scores/stories or bad ones. Are signatures show these. Good luck to those that don't.

But google "curing prostate cancer" and you'll get thousands of hits many of which reputable. We know from statistics that most will be cured of prostate cancer, few unlucky ones won't.

Hope1 - I'm not sure we have to give up those things ( meat/dairy) haven't seen a good link on this and that's what I was basically asking for. Water is good regardless, soft drinks not so much.

Post Edited (davidg) : 4/19/2011 6:04:11 AM (GMT-6)


lowandslow
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2011
Total Posts : 122
   Posted 4/19/2011 6:26 AM (GMT -6)   
My personal opinion is that if I can't enjoy a good steak or hamburger at least a couple of times a week, then what the Hell did I go through this surgery for? Quality of life includes enjoyment of life. I will eat and drink what I want, in moderation, and PCa be darned. If God wanted man to live on fish, vegetables and water, He wouldn't have invented cows.
Age 48
PSA 4.1 No symptoms
Diagnosis 1/12/11
RRP 3/14/11
Gleason 7 (3+4)
T2c
Margins clear
Seminal Vesicles clear
Lymph nodes clear
Prostate 69.5 grams
Organ confined
9% involvement

Herophilus
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 663
   Posted 4/19/2011 6:31 AM (GMT -6)   

I gave up all beef and pork.  (at least 99%) I never used lots of milk  but at this time I'm 100% soy milk.  My wife has been wonderful in changing the way we cook and eat.  Because of this I believe that she is healthier also.  Remember this is just my opinion based on my observations.  We have both benefitted.  Again at this time the only additional thing that I take is an Aspirin each day.  The result of studies looking at reduction of solid tumors supports the aspirin therapy.  (always check with your physician before starting aspirin therapy)

Best of luck

Hero.


reachout
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2009
Total Posts : 725
   Posted 4/19/2011 6:52 AM (GMT -6)   
about wine and beer. I read a report somewhere that said that heavy drinking is correlated with aggressive prostate cancer, but light to moderate drinking shows no effect.

So I though, no big deal, I'm not a heavy drinker. Then I looked up the definition of heavy drinking and it said more than two beers, glasses of wine, or equivalent alcohol per day. I suddenly realized that I had been drinking 2-3 wines or beers per day, or even four beers after a hot day on the golf course. So even though I didn't consider myself a drunk I was, by definition, a heavy drinker.

I've been trying to moderate on that, keeping to the max of 2 per day, usually red wine with dinner, which has been shown to have a good effect. Also, that's an average, so if I go 2-3 days without drinking then drink 3 glasses one day I figure I'm probably OK.
Age: 66
PSA: 7 tests over 2 years bounced around from 2.6 to 5.6
Biopsy 8 of 12 positive, Gleason 3+4, T2a
DaVinci August 2009, pathology Gleason 4+3, neg margins, T2c
Continent right away, ED
Viagra, Cialis did't work, Trimix works well
Post-surgery PSA:
3, month: undetectable <.1; 6 month: undetectable <.014 (ultrasensitive); 9, 12, 15 month: undetectable <.1; 18 month detectable .05

davidg
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 4093
   Posted 4/19/2011 6:58 AM (GMT -6)   
And there are studies that show how a glass of red wine per day actually helps.

My drinking is literally 2 beers a week at most on average so not concerned about that. More concerned about the food. That's what I'll be looking into next and discussing with my doctor, surgeon and my surgeon's nurse who is amazing.

Hero - my wife is a great cook and would adapt her cooking to any such restrictions but having young kids I don't want her to have to become a waitress taking order for meals. I'm moving to Rome, Italy where it's a lot easier to eat a lot of vegetables and fresh fruit so that should help. I won't give up parmiggiano reggiano under any circumstance though.
40 years old - Diagnosed at 40
Robotic Surgery Mount Sinai with Dr. Samadi Jan, 2011
complete urinary control and good erections with and without meds
Prostate was small, 34 grams.
Final Gleason score 7 (3+4)
Less than 5% of slides involved tumor
Tumor measured 5 mm in greatest dimension and was located in the right lobe near the apex.
Tumor was confined to prostate.
The apical, basal, pseudocapsular and soft tissue resection margins were free of tumor.
Seminal vesicles were free of tumor.
Right pelvic node - benign fibroadiopse tissue. no lymph node is identified.
Left pelvic node - one small lymph node, negative for tumor (0/1)

AJCC stage: pT2 NO MX

Herophilus
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 663
   Posted 4/19/2011 9:49 AM (GMT -6)   

As I said in the past I had contemplated starting 6 oz of wine every evening…however the most resent information that I can find on the subject does not support starting wine if you currently are a non-drinker. 

When in Rome do as the Romans do…

My wife is doing the Italy thing next year

davidg
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 4093
   Posted 4/19/2011 10:11 AM (GMT -6)   
you should go with her. I'll be there, my email is here, feel free to email me for any help if needed while there. It's a friendly and easy city though. She (you'll) love it.

I've been looking for a urologist there online but decided to go on recommendations instead. I wonder if they're up to speed on how it's treated here.
40 years old - Diagnosed at 40
Robotic Surgery Mount Sinai with Dr. Samadi Jan, 2011
complete urinary control and good erections with and without meds
Prostate was small, 34 grams.
Final Gleason score 7 (3+4)
Less than 5% of slides involved tumor
Tumor measured 5 mm in greatest dimension and was located in the right lobe near the apex.
Tumor was confined to prostate.
The apical, basal, pseudocapsular and soft tissue resection margins were free of tumor.
Seminal vesicles were free of tumor.
Right pelvic node - benign fibroadiopse tissue. no lymph node is identified.
Left pelvic node - one small lymph node, negative for tumor (0/1)

AJCC stage: pT2 NO MX

Sonny3
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 2447
   Posted 4/19/2011 11:57 AM (GMT -6)   
I am of the "Quality of Life" camp. I may monitor what I eat to keep the weight off and just in general lead a healthy life, but I have been doing that for years. Having spent 17 years on a ball field as college sports official, I always wanted to keep the excess weight off and have the stamina to keep up with the game.

But I have always enjoyed the life of the meat and taters kind of guy. Never been a heavy drinker, but will enjoy a cold one or two when I am cooking or grilling.

Kinda fits into my lifestyle of "Every Day is A Bonus" and I try to make sure I enjoy them. And that includes eating whatever I want to make me a happy survivor.

Sonny
60 years old - PSA 11/07 3.0 PSA 5/09 6.4
da Vinci 9/17/09
Post Surgery Pathology: GS 4+3=7
Stage: T3a
Tumor Volume 12.5% positive margin, extra-prostatic extension
30 day PSA 0.4, 50 day psa 0.53, 64 day psa 0.6
IMRT completed 1/15/10 35 treatments- 70Gy
2/23/10 Post IMRT PSA 1.0
3/22/10 PSA 1.5
4/19/10 PSA 1.2
5/22/10 PSA 1.3
8/9/10 Radiation for MET
9/7/10 PSA 2.2
1/5/11 PSA 3.9
3/7/11 PSA 4.2

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25380
   Posted 4/19/2011 12:59 PM (GMT -6)   
Good answer, Sonny, good attitude too
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06, 2/11 1.24, 4/11 3.81
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/10

Tony Crispino
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 8128
   Posted 4/19/2011 1:15 PM (GMT -6)   
Guys,
This subject will continue to repeat itself as it has since I arrived here. It is a very important topic that we need more data on. The discussion does not bother me until I hear someone complain about it. We are not being good neighbors if when every time we see it pop back up that we are finding vocal dissenters. There certainly is data that not eating a healthy diet will not only not cure cancer but it will lead to other well known problems...

When I started out with prostate cancer I was told that diet won't solve my problem. That was wrong. It was a short sighted statement that missed on several accounts. No diet does may cure cancer, but it can improve the quality of life of a cancer patient.

Today is a great example. I went in for my blood work. My oncologist called me back and stated the PSA was good. But I also have been on a weight loss gig since in my last appointment my blood sugar was getting high and my lipids panels were high. My diet of severely reduced meat intake and increased vegetable and fish left me with more good news than I had planned for. My blood sugar was normal and my lipids were down.

As I heard Mark Moyad say before ~ "A heart healthy diet is also a prostate healthy diet ~ even if it does not help with the prostate cancer it will help with what is more likely to kill you anyway"

I believe him...

Tony
Advanced Prostate Cancer at age 44 (I am 48 now)
pT3b,N0,Mx (original PSA was 19.8) EPE, PM, SVI. Gleason 4+3=7

Treatments:
Da Vinci Surgery ~ 2/16/2007
Adjuvant Radiation Therapy ~ IMRT Completed 8/07
Adjuvant Hormone Therapy ~ 28 months on Casodex and Lupron.
Undetectable PSA.

Blog: www.caringbridge.org/visit/tonycrispino

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25380
   Posted 4/19/2011 1:24 PM (GMT -6)   
Tony, I don't think a single man or woman here would argue against "A heart healthy" diet in general. Where this topic gets out of hand is when some choose to so dogmatic about their specific views. I have had the good fortune in my cancer travels, past and present, to have quality time with 2 different oncology dieticians. Even though I met them 10 years apart, they both agreed on the heart healthy diet, and they both agreed that it doesn't make sense, even fighting cancer, to avoid entire food groups, like red meats, dairy, etc. They also agreed that all things in moderation, and that included drinking. And they both said, if a patient continues to be a smoker, there's no point in them obsessing over the dietary part. When I swtich soon to a full time oncology rehab program (next few weeks), I will have access to still another oncology dietician, and I will be glad to share his/her opinions on the subject.

Next people will want to argue if its ok to use A-1 Sauce or Heinz 57, and which one fights PC better.

David in SC

142
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 6949
   Posted 4/19/2011 1:34 PM (GMT -6)   
Davidg,
 
Quality of life is a big discussion in itself. I am of the opinion that if I follow all the suggestions, I will be on water and pills, which don't qualify.
 
My doctors, and the diet specialist at the hospital, all agree that a heart-healthy diet is appropriate, but that the extremes which take away your enjoyment of life are not the best approach.
 
I also agree that being told by anyone that you are cured is, at best, misleading. I will consider myself cured when I die of something else without having seen BCR.

davidg
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 4093
   Posted 4/19/2011 1:42 PM (GMT -6)   
I'll feel cured when/if I'm 15 years clean maybe. Still struggle with that. So far I'm happy (considering i got cancer) with the results of my biopsy and my pathology post operation. It's a good starting point I suppose and using that MSK calculator I come up in that 97% range for whatever its worth. But this is about diet, not cure versus remission.

I need to figure out the diet/health thing and will be going to B&N to see if they have any books on it that don't confine one to vegan and/or all organic type diets. I couldn't do those. I can give up meat, not all dairy. I already pretty much drink only water and I like good fresh vegetable and fruit. So I'm assuming I can do this. Can't do the grains and nuts type stuff though.

One big problem with specific health related diets is that lunch in the office becomes a problem. I used to have a Whole Foods nearby but this new location is inundated with crappy places.
40 years old - Diagnosed at 40
Robotic Surgery Mount Sinai with Dr. Samadi Jan, 2011
complete urinary control and good erections with and without meds
Prostate was small, 34 grams.
Final Gleason score 7 (3+4)
Less than 5% of slides involved tumor
Tumor measured 5 mm in greatest dimension and was located in the right lobe near the apex.
Tumor was confined to prostate.
The apical, basal, pseudocapsular and soft tissue resection margins were free of tumor.
Seminal vesicles were free of tumor.
Right pelvic node - benign fibroadiopse tissue. no lymph node is identified.
Left pelvic node - one small lymph node, negative for tumor (0/1)

AJCC stage: pT2 NO MX

Tony Crispino
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 8128
   Posted 4/19/2011 1:46 PM (GMT -6)   
@ davidg

If ever.

I have reported a relapse as high as 29 years after initial surgery in my best friends father. Being cured of prostate cancer means dying of something else...

I can't remember which member said that here but I thinks it the right way to say it. At first I thought it was a cynical point of view but I think it better prepares someone after initial therapy to always be on the look out.

Tony

davidg
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 4093
   Posted 4/19/2011 1:56 PM (GMT -6)   
I'd sign off on 29 years.
40 years old - Diagnosed at 40
Robotic Surgery Mount Sinai with Dr. Samadi Jan, 2011
complete urinary control and good erections with and without meds
Prostate was small, 34 grams.
Final Gleason score 7 (3+4)
Less than 5% of slides involved tumor
Tumor measured 5 mm in greatest dimension and was located in the right lobe near the apex.
Tumor was confined to prostate.
The apical, basal, pseudocapsular and soft tissue resection margins were free of tumor.
Seminal vesicles were free of tumor.
Right pelvic node - benign fibroadiopse tissue. no lymph node is identified.
Left pelvic node - one small lymph node, negative for tumor (0/1)

AJCC stage: pT2 NO MX

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25380
   Posted 4/19/2011 2:13 PM (GMT -6)   
davidg:

if you can, do yourself a favor and meet with an oncology dietician yourself, and find out first hand what dietary advice they would give you.

david in sc
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06, 2/11 1.24, 4/11 3.81
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/10

John T
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2008
Total Posts : 4227
   Posted 4/19/2011 2:31 PM (GMT -6)   
There have been a number of PC patients that have controlled their PC through a strict diet. Michael Millikan is probably the most well known. Every oncologist has seen patients in which their cancer's response to diet has been outstanding.
It is also unreasonable to expect that very many patients would adhere to a strict diet that eliminated all meat, dairy and sugar. There is a big difference in eating hamburger, fries and pastrami every day and going on a more moderate heart healthy diet. The biggest risk we all have is not PC, but heart disease, and there is no question at all that diet will affect our cardiac risk.
JT
66 years old, rising psa for 10 years from 4 to 40; 12 biopsies and MRIS all negative. Oct 2009 DXed with G6 <5%. Color Doppler biopsy found 2.5 cm G4+3. Combidex clear. Seeds and IMRT, 4 weeks of urinary frequency and urgency; no side affects since then. 2 years of psa's all at 0.1.

Tony Crispino
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 8128
   Posted 4/19/2011 2:34 PM (GMT -6)   
Mike Milken has books on diet available at www.pcf.org.

But Moyad, Myers, Scholz, Vogelzang, and meny others will tell you that eating healthy is never a bad idea...

Tony
Advanced Prostate Cancer at age 44 (I am 48 now)
pT3b,N0,Mx (original PSA was 19.8) EPE, PM, SVI. Gleason 4+3=7

Treatments:
Da Vinci Surgery ~ 2/16/2007
Adjuvant Radiation Therapy ~ IMRT Completed 8/07
Adjuvant Hormone Therapy ~ 28 months on Casodex and Lupron.
Undetectable PSA.

Blog: www.caringbridge.org/visit/tonycrispino

proscapt
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 644
   Posted 4/19/2011 4:45 PM (GMT -6)   
I've posted this before, but there are always new readers so I'll post it again:

cancer.ucsf.edu/_docs/crc/nutrition_prostate.pdf

This is a summary of diet and supplement research prepared by a nutritionist at UC San Francisco, one of the top rated cancer centers. It is not doctrinaire, it doesn't say "this will save you" but it is a good review of the research pro and con on each major food group and the major types of supplements.

woodstock97
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 44
   Posted 4/19/2011 5:03 PM (GMT -6)   
It is great if you choose to be proactive to limit recurrence of PC by using a good diet.... My opinion is if our (my PC) is so sensitive then diet is such a small part in preventing recurrence , then it is going somewhat overboard... Everyone is different and better diet is only going to help you.... But for how long? If recurrence is in the cards for you, how much time does your diet buy you ??? Not much in my opinion.... Good choice though if you go that way.


age 57 cancer at 54 robotic shortly after March 2008
pre surgery psa 2.8 4/12 cores positive 5- 30 %
2 positive margins 3 years undetectable (last March 2011)
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