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garyfoote
New Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 16
   Posted 6/16/2011 2:15 PM (GMT -6)   
Diet, prayer and Essiac Tea is working wonders. See my sig for the numbers. Note the doubling rate that preceded my diet changes and beginning Essiac Tea. WOOT!!!!
Gary

PSA 24.8. Jan 08
PSA 18.8. Feb 08
Biopsy 12 cores 7 positive
Gleason 8 [4+4]
RRP 04/29/08
Mucinous adenocarcinoma
Pos margins
PSA 0.0 8 06/80
Bilateral Inguinal Hernia Repair 7/10/08
PSA 0.02 Oct 2008
PSA 0.04 Decr 2008
PSA 0.06 Mar 2009
PSA 0.04 Apr 2009
PSA 0.07 Jul 2009
PSA 0.15 Oct 2009
PSA 0.17 Jan 2010
PSA 0.30 Apr 2010
PSA 0.71 Dec 2010
PSA 0.67 Mar 2011
PSA 0.66 Jun 2011

Steve n Dallas
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 4848
   Posted 6/16/2011 2:27 PM (GMT -6)   

Congrats.

So... you started the diet approx January 2011?!?

 

 


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 6/16/2011 2:27 PM (GMT -6)   
gary, i am happy your PSA is showing a pretty steady drop, in the world of PC, that's always a good thing.  I sincerely hope your cancer remains under control for years to come.

however, i am dubious about essiac tea, the following is a paragraph on the subject, and below it, i cite the source.

Essiac tea. This is a mixture of herbs blended together to make a tea.
The claim: It strengthens the immune system, cleanses the blood, promotes cell repair, restores energy levels, and detoxifies the body. Earlier promoters claimed that the tea changes tumors into normal tissue.
The facts: There is no scientific evidence that this tea is effective in treating cancer, and no clinical trials have been published in medical journals. Essiac tea may cause constipation, diarrhea, headaches, low blood sugar, nausea, vomiting, and kidney and liver damage. In some cases when injected, it can cause serious complications, and even death.

http://www.cancer.net/patient/All+about+Cancer/Cancer.Net+Feature+Articles/Treatments%2C+Tests%2C+and+Procedures/How+to+Protect+Yourself+From+Cancer+Treatment+Fraud

Article is from www.cancer.net
 
Also, the Canadian equivilent our our U.S FTC and FDC have also dealt with this product before, and denied its claims.
 
From an online doctor:
 
 
david in sc

Post Edited (Purgatory) : 6/16/2011 1:37:51 PM (GMT-6)


BB_Fan
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 1011
   Posted 6/16/2011 2:37 PM (GMT -6)   
Congrats Gary. What are you doing for diet?
Dx Dec 2008 at 56, PSA 3.4
Biopsy: T1c, Geason 7 (3+4)
Robotic RP March 2009
Path Report: T2c, G8, organ confined, neg margins, lymph nodes - tumor vol 9%
PSA's < .01, .01, .07, .28, .50. ADT 3 5/10. IMRT 7/10.
PSA's post HT/SRT .01, < .01
End ADT3 5/11 PSA < .01

Carlos
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 486
   Posted 6/16/2011 2:48 PM (GMT -6)   
Gary, that is good news.  I believe there are three or four posters on HW that are having good success with diet and supplements.   Keep coming back and letting us know how it is going.  As BB Fan asked, do you mind sharing what you are doing for diet?
 
Carlos

Dx 2/2008, at age 71, PSA 9.1, G8, T1c
daVinci surgery 5/2008, G8(5+3), pT2c
BCR 2 1/2 yrs after surgery
IMRT, 68.4 Gy, 12/2010 - 2/2011
PSA 0.07 three months after IMRT

Casey59
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 3172
   Posted 6/16/2011 7:58 PM (GMT -6)   

That looks great, Gary.  Hard to say which one has the greatest impact, but you’ve make some smart choices.

There’s a lesson for us all:  we all carry cancer cells in our bodies.  1/4 of us will die of cancer, but 3/4 of us will continue to maintain a balance and be protected from cancer death by natural defenses of our bodies.  So, how do we boost those defenses?

Just like you, the good common sense advice many of us here at HW follow is to modify our cancer risk by (STEP 1) reducing/eliminating those individual foods (not entire food groups) known to increase cancer risk, and (STEP 2) increase those foods known to decrease cancer risk.

It is a huge scientific logistical challenge to determine the impact of a single food in a complex diet; and we know that the FDA doesn’t “approve” meds without a prospective, double blind, carefully controlled clinical trial with a large sample.  Despite this, research conducted in the past few years has shown that bioactive dietary agents can (a) reduce an individual’s chances of developing PC, (b) diminish the risk of disease recurrence, and (c) inhibit disease progression.   Unfortunately, far too many doctors, dieticians, clinicians, etc are ignorant of the unique challenges, as well as the opportunities prostate cancer presents...but the prostate cancer specialists all have diet and exercise in their programs. 

It’s baffling to think about what people will subject themselves to (surgery, radiation, chemical/hormone treatment) to stop or slow their cancer growth while not undertaking the far less radical steps that are within their direct control to slow their cancer growth and prolong life…like diet, nutrition, exercise, etc.   Most men cannot make the cancer disappear with a change in diet, but diminishing the risk of disease recurrence should be motivating enough…


F8
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2010
Total Posts : 3986
   Posted 6/16/2011 8:22 PM (GMT -6)   
Casey -- good to see you back to your old form.  missed your posts cool .
 
ed
age: 56
PSA on 12/09: 6.8
gleason 3+4 = 7
HT, BT and IGRT
received 3rd and last lupron shot 9/14/10
2/8/11 PSA <.1, T= 6 ng/dl
6/8/11 PSA .2, T = 540 ng/dl!

zufus
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 3149
   Posted 6/16/2011 8:33 PM (GMT -6)   
garyfoote- did you realize you are dealing with a PCa variant type??? Just an fyi, not meant to blow you away and just note worthy when talking to experts perhaps? Link has some photos to see on some variants:

See www.webpathology.com/case.asp?case=23   (mucin type, the good news may be it is not 'small cell' that is one of the worst to deal with fyi) See Photos on those 18 variants. Now we have 24 variants found www.yananow.net/24Variants.pdf 
 
Hey I say if anything shows benefit even if in only one patient, embrace it and this disease and variables envolved make it bizarre from patient to patient. Whatever works in a patient good news.  Glad you see positives in using it.

Post Edited (zufus) : 6/16/2011 7:39:44 PM (GMT-6)


garyfoote
New Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 16
   Posted 6/16/2011 11:16 PM (GMT -6)   
In response to all,

I began my dietary changes and the use of Essiac Tea in January as Steve n Dallas asked. I do know that many individuals and groups have bashed Essiac Tea, but my personal experience is that I know two people personally who have used it to great effect. One was diagnosed 15 years ago with PCa and he immediately began drinking Essiac. He did nothing else and within months his tumor was apparently gone. He is now 83 and cancer free as well as extremely active. He drives cross country each year, sings and writes music and was recently married. My second friend was diagnosed 5 months ago with Gleason 8. He began drinking Essiac and within three months his cancer was undetectable. I understand this is anecdotal information and many doctors deny the value of ET, but in my case [as well as my two friends] it has worked wonders.

Now, to diet. I have eliminated beef entirely. I have decreased my animal protein to pork [small amounts] turkey [medium amounts] and fish [once a week]. Beyond that I began juicing in January, focusing on Kale, spinach, broccoli and other dark greens. I include carrots and apples to sweeten the juice. I also add in a garlic clove and a 1/2 inch piece of ginger in each juice. I juice about three or four times a week. I eat mostly raw vegetables as heating veggies above 140 degrees kills all the enzymes within them. This is not to say most of what I eat is raw vegetables, rather that the vegetables I eat are mostly raw. You wouldn't believe the taste and crunch of raw corn cut from the cob in a salad. I do not eat fried foods, except a once a month clam plate at my favorite seafood restaurant. My pork intake is very small - mostly a bit of ground pork added to ground turkey for a bit of texture and added flavor. I have switched from deli sandwiches to raw vegetable sandwiches on whole wheat or multi grain pita bread or even multi grain breads. I also like Greek Salad, made from wheat pasta, feta cheese, lots of grape tomatos, black olives, cucumber, onion, green pepper and greek salad dressing [in moderate amounts]. VERY flavorful and filling.

Now for exercise: I had bilateral inguinal hernia repairs in July of 08 and have been disabled from leg pains ever since. I walk slowly with a cane, so real exercise is out. Nonetheless I enjoy gardening [in short bursts] and short walks [no more than around the block once.]. After these walks I have to lie down until my leg pains become manageable. So exercise is not really a part of my program, though I wish it could be. I finally sold my motorcycle two days ago after looking at it longingly for a year. I guess I will never have the leg strength to feel safe at stops.

Still, I enjoy the occasional deli sandwich on whole grain sub with turkey, ham and genoa... provalone, romaine, onion and tomato. Oh yeah... I eat LOTS of tomato with fresh basil and olive oil. LOVE those salads.

Before this I was a fried food freak and would hit BK at least once a week. Triple Whopper with cheese - Oh yeah. I still may have one of these a year, but it's a single, not a triple and I feel bloated and fat for days after, but OH the flavor.

I will drink alcohol, one vodka with cranberry a night. I used to be a nightclub entertainer and was pretty well full of alcohol by the end of the night five nights a week. Big change there.

My main change has been my prayer life. I have fallen in love with God like never before and believe fully in the power of prayer. Before, when my PSA was doubling, I was a lukewarm Christian. Now I am the P&W team leader at my church, have produced a CD of original spiritual music and have come back to my first love of music in a big way, in a much healthier direction. So my happiness level is way better. My stress levels are way lower and my satisfaction with life if off the scale.

Purgatory - I know there are a lot of people denigrating the value of Essiac Tea, but in my case, as part of a whole life change, it has been a valuable ingredient. I've not experienced any of the listed side-effects and fully believe in it's healing powers.

Lastly, I have begun taking supplements and vitamins daily. I take Turmeric, Fish Oil, B12, Vit E, Vit D, and a high potency multivitamin. I did take Saw Palmetto for a while and may go back to it, though it promotes prostate health and, having had my prostate removed, I wonder about making the remaining prostate cells [remember, positive margins] healthy.

Still, I suffer from full ED and minimal incontinence. The incontinence has been improved with a prescribed drug that 'dries' the system and relaxes smooth muscle [the bladder]. The generic name is Oxybutynin Chloride. I take 5mg morning and evening. Cut my incontinence in half or better. No more pads. Just a folded cloth that I change two or three times a day. And that with the moderate exercise that comes with gardening and setting up for Praise and Worship each Sunday. I even occasionally get out to mow the lawn!

I have been described by my doctors as that one guy in 10,000 who has every complication possible. Worst case scenario regarding side effects of RPP. Yet, despite my urologist's constant calls for radiation and ADT I now find myself with lowering PSA and better quality of life three years out from surgery. My wife still loves me, my friends all love me and best of all God loves me. I think acceptance and love is as important in healing as all other elements. If you are surrounded by real friends, take care of your body and find a life path that gives you joy you have the best chance for long term survival.

I have to add as a final note that Essiac Tea is something I believe in. It can't really hurt you and so is well worth trying. It costs about $20 a pound and one pound makes enough tea for two people for a couple of months [my wife drinks it as a preventative]. Where's the harm? I know, as a survivor, that any and all remedies are on the table as possibles worth looking at. Way better than the alternative of lying down and waiting to die, going for burn treatments, or for poison treatments. Those that are harmless in all respects are certainly worth a try. The problem with non-FDA treatments is that there is no money in a cure, so why would they even go to trial? Curing you means they make less money. Giving you a bandaid over and over is much more profitable.

If it doesn't work for you then by all means go for traditional methods of healing. I know I will if my PSA rises significantly again despite my best tries at healing by strengthening my immune system and letting my body heal itself.

Zufus - when I discovered I had mucinous adenocarcinoma I looked it up and found it was an unusual variant of prostate cancer, more frequently found in stomach, mouth or esophageal cancer. Still, I'm not convinced it makes a difference in treatment. Doctors don't think so. Why should I? Then again, I don't have a lot of faith in doctor's opinions. Paradox, eh?

Casey - I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, 'we all carry cancer cells in our bodies. 1/4 of us will die of cancer, but 3/4 of us will continue to maintain a balance and be protected from cancer death by natural defenses of our bodies. So, how do we boost those defenses?' I believe boosting our bodies defenses is THE key to conquering cancer. That is the position the Gerson Institute takes and I fully believe it, though I am not a fan of their methods re: coffee enemas and the like. Still, colon cleansing can be managed by eating right and living right. Coffee enemas may be fast acting but are they needed for a lifetime? I doubt it.

So, I'm here, I'm getting better, I'm happy and I'm not going for radiation or ADT unless I'm on the verge of dying. Your mileage may vary. Good luck to all and God Bless...
Gary

PSA 24.8. Jan 08
PSA 18.8. Feb 08
Biopsy 12 cores 7 positive
Gleason 8 [4+4]
RRP 04/29/08
Mucinous adenocarcinoma
Pos margins
PSA 0.0 8 06/80
Bilateral Inguinal Hernia Repair 7/10/08
PSA 0.02 Oct 2008
PSA 0.04 Decr 2008
PSA 0.06 Mar 2009
PSA 0.04 Apr 2009
PSA 0.07 Jul 2009
PSA 0.15 Oct 2009
PSA 0.17 Jan 2010
PSA 0.30 Apr 2010
PSA 0.71 Dec 2010
PSA 0.67 Mar 2011
PSA 0.66 Jun 2011

zufus
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 3149
   Posted 6/17/2011 5:54 AM (GMT -6)   
Gary- you are a knowledgable guy and love your assessment on the docs all being experts...exactly what I have found is the truth and Dr. Strum points out maybe 15% of the docs are real experts, 70% approx. are average (how reassuring)?.
 
Here is one abstract on Mucin findings, I suggest you research and read up, I don't know that much about Mucin myself. Variants to me, means whatever rules you thought were in PCa, might just be that much more worthless (sarcasm included). I don't know if your PCa includes signet ring components in your PCa, you could have it reviewed by Bostwick, Bonkfhoff and other experts...knowledge is power. Signet ring and small cell versions are apparently terrible in comparisons. DOESN'T mean this is you or defining what you are dealing with, this abstract is one of many and gets into signet ring variant w/mucin PCa found, together.
So I am not trying to scare you, but saying look into what you are dealing with as much as possible. Reading this abstract is scary, but it is not necessarily what you are dealing with (caveat).  Find others via google searches and such things. I got my biopsy slides and got photo's from under the scope by a pathologist my onco arranged it all for free, send me an email if you wish to look at Gleasons 7,8,9's or PNI photo.(click on zufus) I saw the alien invaders close up (lol).

Mucin-producing carcinoma of the prostate: review of 88 cases.
Saito S, Iwaki H.
SourceArt Park Urology Hospital and Clinic, Department of Pathology, Sapporo Medical University, Japan.

Abstract
OBJECTIVES: To report on a case of mucinous carcinoma of the prostate and discuss the clinical and histopathologic features of the mucin-producing carcinoma of the prostate from a review of published reports.

METHODS: Our case and 87 other previously reported cases were evaluated clinically and histologically.

RESULTS: We encountered a case of mucinous carcinoma of the prostate, Stage C, which was treated by radical prostatectomy. After reviewing it and the 87 other cases, we believe that these cases of mucin-producing carcinomas can be divided into three groups: 60 cases of mucinous carcinoma, 17 cases of primary signet-ring cell carcinoma, and 11 cases of mucinous carcinoma with signet-ring cells. Mucinous carcinoma is a variant of high-grade adenocarcinoma of the prostate, wherein there is a 77.8% rate of prostate-specific antigen elevation and a similar rate (77.8%) of response to endocrine therapy. Fifty percent of patients survived 3 years and 25%, 5 years. In contrast, primary signet-ring cell carcinoma conveys one of the worst prognoses among patients with prostate cancer. There are no reliable tumor markers, and there was no response to endocrine therapy. Patients with primary signet-ring cell carcinoma had a 27.3% 3-year survival rate; none survived to 5 years. The clinical features of mucinous carcinoma with signet-ring cells are very similar to primary signet-ring cell carcinoma; again, there was no response to endocrine therapy and the 3-year survival rate was 16.7%.

CONCLUSIONS: Although it has been suggested that mucinous carcinoma is a variant of high-grade adenocarcinoma of the prostate, signet-ring cell carcinoma and mucinous carcinoma with signet-ring cells are other variants of carcinoma that develop in the prostate, and their prognoses are very poor.

PMID:10414741[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let me also mention read Dr. Strum's book A Primer on Prostate Cancer (page 35 in 2nd edition) 'possible investigations for PCa risk' shows various testings that can be done on patients, as to revealing the biology of PCa going on. Example scenario: in some rarer cases some variants at some point do not give off psa's to measure (they are usually the aggressive types), so ones psa could look great or low/low...but the biology if analyzed would show different...and hopefully before symptoms show up. This does not necessarily mean your case, but vigilence is important in PCa and I would likely say be more vigilent on variants, less is known generally speaking. Just trying to assist you a heads up concept, just in case. cool

Post Edited (zufus) : 6/17/2011 6:01:59 AM (GMT-6)


Casey59
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 3172
   Posted 6/17/2011 8:42 AM (GMT -6)   

Gary, keep doing everything within your power to help in your fight, in addition to seeking top-notch conventional treatments!

As I’ve said here before, it seemed to me that no one in the world would more motivated to seek out an anti-cancer regimen than a cancer survivor who wants to be sure he remains a survivor.

Unfortunately, we have seen some men who simply have too much “momentum” (resistance to change) to make similar smart choices like what you have made, but your strength and motivation is inspiring.  Your recipe might not be copied exactly by others, but the spirit & intent of your fight against cancer is awesome.

Here’s an excellent article titled, “I have prostate cancer, now what?  The answer, in addition to the conventional treatments, is to make immediate lifestyle changes…many of which you have already made.  This article may further help you and will help others who read this thread in the future to also make smart choices in their lives to implement a “more good than harm” mentality.

Continued best wishes…


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 6/17/2011 10:52 AM (GMT -6)   
Gary,

Sounds like you got the diet, exercise, and faith part down to a science. Those are all good things in fighting your cancer or anything else medically wrong with you. I am weak on the diet part, not that I eat poorly, but definitely not as strict as you are in your food choices. My new oncologist is getting ready to lecture me on my next visit on portions of my diet, especially that of my consumption of sweets, which I freely admit to being a sugar-addict.

As far as the tea you drink, if you feel its safe and feel that it helps, its certainly your choice there, would never deny anyone from doing what they feel they should. The only sources I have ever found on it that promote its goodness, are sources that sell the product. There are plenty of warnings of its dangers elsewhere on the net.

What concerns me, and its just a non-medical opinion, is your stats. You are a Gleason 8 guy, you had a high starting PSA, and a lot of positive cores. Many doctors would reccomend that you should have already beein on SRT at this point. There are varying views on the "line in the sand" number, but some Radiaiton Oncologists feel that SRT is most effective if utilizedd before the PSA reaches .50, and there's another line of thinking that puts the line at 1.0 to be effective.

If you ultimately need radiation (and trust me, I hope and pray you dont - it was a disaster for me, and then it didnt work anyway), I just hope you aren't passing by your window of opportunity by waiting it out. I am no expert on supplements or vitamins (other than under my doctor's reccomendation), but its possible (not saying it as a fact) that some of what you are taking could be in fact, masking your true PSA score. Especially since you mentioned taking Saw Palmetto at one point.

I am not saying you are wrong , or critisizing your choices, that is your business and yours alone, but your numbers have me concerned. Are your doctors ok with what you are doing? Are you doing these things under their care and advice? Just my opinion, but I think its worth thinking about.

Wishing you the best,

David in SC
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06, 2/11 1.24, 4/11 3.81, 6/11 5.8
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/10

Piano
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 847
   Posted 6/17/2011 5:55 PM (GMT -6)   
Gary, congratulations on your results! With a PSA doubling time of 3 months last year and now showing a small decrease for the first 5 months of this year,, you have to be doing something right. So keep on doing it!

I am interested in your experience with Essiac tea. I looked at the links Purgatory provided above, in particular Dr Weil's and it was interesting to find that the inventor/discoverer of this stuff was a nurse, Renee Caisse, and the name Essiac is actually her name backwards. Not the name of a herb after all!

It started in the 1920's and the fact that is hasn't faded into oblivion (like eye of newt!) means that it has something going for it, if only anecdotal evidence. If it was worthless or did actual harm, I don't think it would have survived that long. There don't appear to have been any official human studies ~ only animal ones. However lots of human studies-of-one, including yours do indicate something interesting there, so some food for thought...

Like Purgatory, I am wondering why, with positive margins, you haven't gone down the SRT path. My path is somewhat parallel to yours. With rising PSA, I asked my doctors about SRT, and they didn't recommend it, so now it is a waiting game for HT. Like you, I opted to try a diet change (now basically vegan) and at 3 1/2 months my PSA is static, although is is too early to draw any solid conclusions from that.

Please keep us posted on your future results...
No symptoms; PSA 5.7; Gleason 4+5=9; cancer in 4/12 cores
Non-nerve-sparing RRP 7 March 2008 age 63
Organ confined, neg margins. Gleason downgrade 4+4=8
Fully continent
Bimix worked well; now using just VED
PSA undetectable at first but then rose to 0.4, doubling time 7 months
Following diet change, PSA static at 0.4...

RobertC
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2011
Total Posts : 1313
   Posted 6/18/2011 7:36 AM (GMT -6)   
I believe I saw that there are several different formulations of Essiac tea. Which one are you on?

garyfoote
New Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 16
   Posted 6/18/2011 6:06 PM (GMT -6)   
To all,

Thanks so much for your concerns and information offered in the spirit of caring and helping advice. I will do my best to respond in full to all because the more we share information the better we are armed for the battle.

Zufus, your mention of a study of 88 patients with mucinous carcinomas reflects my original concerns when I got my pathology report. At that time all I could find online regarding similar cases was a single paper [the only one Google listed at the time] citing 46 previous incidents of mucinuos adenocarcinomas of the prostate. Unusual indeed! I will be looking for images of signet ring cells and comparing them under a microscope to my own slides. I suspect, given that I am 3 years+ post surgery, that my PCa is not of the signet-ring variant. Still, I will assiduously seek out the answer to that question to be sure. Thank you for the information you reported. It is new news to me, so bears considerable study.

Casey, a 'do more good than harm' mentality is one of the reasons I have resisted SRT and ADT regimens. At this point in my battle I believe there are still more things I can do in the field of improving my body's immune system and until all of those practices have been fully adopted there is little point in SRT or ADT. In fact I have some issues with the process of those regimens. The suggested process is to begin ADT [planned for a two year regimen] and then, after six months of ADT add in the SRT. My problem with this approach is that ADT immediately flat-lines PSA results and so there is no way of knowing if the SRT is having effect until the ADT is completed, plus one year! Only then will the effect of the ADT flat-lining PSA results end. I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of going into two years of a double therapy in which the slightest notion of efficacy will be known for 3 years. Definitely does not fit my notion of 'do more good than harm'. Your link to “I have prostate cancer, now what?” is excellent information and one I will be studying in detail. I have a bit of a paradox in my mind when it comes to things that promote prostate health. Considering that my removed prostate has become my enemy in the guise of remaining diseased cells, do I want to promote prosttate health, with the possible effect of promoting diseased cells along the way? I'm on the fence about this paradox.

David [Purgatory], my urologist and oncologist both feel I should be starting SRT/ADT therapy now if not a year ago. I have not done so, not only for the reasons stated above, but also because I have heard many a story like yours wherein the result is no effect at all on the disease. I have consciously chosen to draw my own line in the sand on further 'standard' treatment for my disease. I am moving forward with the mindset of complete faith in the power of healing from within, both spiritually and with proper diet and exercise. Your suggestion that my regimen of supplements may be masking my PSa to some degree is one I had not considered and I am grateful for your pointing out that possibility. I will be discussing the issue with my doctor this week, and the rest of my medical team as soon as I can get together with them. In the meantime I will be doing my best to read up on which supplements may be having such effect as well as how strong that effect can be. Thanks for bring that to my attention. I pray you get your sugar addiction under control. I don't have a desire for sweets and feel blessed by that lack. Pay good attention to your new oncologist's lecture.

Piano, I wish I had the strength to become totally vegan like you have. I am working in that direction bit by bit and may even succeed in getting there one day. Until then I do what I can and when I just have to have that bit of animal protein I remind myself that I will only have a very small amount and that, over time, I will continue to reduce my cravings to the point of them becoming a non-issue.

Robertcool, the blend of tea I use is the original four ingredient mix of organic burdock root, organic sheep sorrel, organic rhubarb root and organic slippery elm bark powder prepared by Starwest Botanicals. I double the potency recommended on the package. I'm one of those 'bigger is better' guys and this is reflected in how I choose to prepare the tea. It tastes a bit like old socks [like I really know what that taste is - :)], but after the first few doses it has become quite bearable, if not even downright comforting, like a good friend whose habits grate on you a bit, yet they remain your good friend. I considered using the 8 ingredient preparation at one point but after talking to those I know who have used the tea to good advantage [they both were decidely against the 'new fangled' stuff] I chose to stay with the tried and true mixture. Why mess with success?

To everyone reading this, know that my wife and I hold you all up in prayer daily and we firmly believe in the power of healing faith. We are not Christian Scientists, turning a blind eye to medicine, but instead we have faith that the Lord uses doctors, as well as natural preparations, as well as good dietary choices, as well as pure faith to heal. In the end we all have to make our own choices. Our joining together to discuss possibilities and informing one another can only lead to better choices for each one of us, even though we each may make different choices. There is no one single path to health. We are all different and will react differently to various approaches. Be smart, be informed, gather all the facts you can and make choices that make sense to you. If your choices seem to be off a bit reexamine your path and make adjustments accordingly. Our disease is not a static disease. Our approach to defeating it cannot be static either.

If I've missed anything you have offered please tap me on the shoulder and restate to me. I am sometimes a bit thick-headed in the face of the multitude of information to be considered.

In good health to you all,
Gary

PSA 24.8. Jan 08
PSA 18.8. Feb 08
Biopsy 12 cores 7 positive
Gleason 8 [4+4]
RRP 04/29/08
Mucinous adenocarcinoma
Pos margins
PSA 0.0 8/06/08
Bilateral Inguinal Hernia Repair 7/10/08
PSA 0.02 10/08
PSA 0.04 12/08
PSA 0.06 03/09
PSA 0.04 04/09
PSA 0.07 07/09
PSA 0.15 10/09
PSA 0.17 01/10
PSA 0.30 04/10
PSA 0.71 12/10
PSA 0.67 03/11
PSA 0.66 06/11

Piano
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 847
   Posted 6/19/2011 5:06 PM (GMT -6)   
Gary, thank you for the further information, and there is enough information for anyone who wants to try Essiac tea. I can appreciate why you want to delay extra treatment for as long as possible ~ neither of them are very pleasant.

For RT, I fear the window of opportunity is slipping you by ~ but not if your PSA continues to fall!. Had my doctors agreed, I would have had RT at about PSA 0.3. However they didn't, and that opportunity has passed ~ not that I am unhappy about it! Do you have a Plan B for RT ~ at what point would you pull the pin and go for RT?

In my case, delaying HT does not matter so much ~ my uro mentioned waiting until my PSA is 10, although there is plenty of contrary option saying that sooner is better. Even if I can delay the evil day only a year or two, it is worth it ~ a diet regimen is much easier to handle than HT.

For those of us playing the waiting game, diet, supplements, prayer/meditation seem to be reasonable things to try. They certainly won't work for everyone, but we won't know whether any of it will work for us individually without actually trying it. And with regular PSA tests, we get some fairly immediate feedback on whether anything is working.

May all our future PSAs decline, or at least remain static :-)
No symptoms; PSA 5.7; Gleason 4+5=9; cancer in 4/12 cores
Non-nerve-sparing RRP 7 March 2008 age 63
Organ confined, neg margins. Gleason downgrade 4+4=8
Fully continent
Bimix worked well; now using just VED
PSA undetectable at first but then rose to 0.4, doubling time 7 months
Following diet change, PSA static at 0.4...

garyfoote
New Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 16
   Posted 6/19/2011 7:14 PM (GMT -6)   
Piano,

My current 'go' line is PSA 1.0. However, nothing is set in stone and that may vary to either side depending on surrounding circumstances. As P&W Team leader in my church there are LOTS of people holding me up in prayer, both within and without the church. At a birthday dinner for a brother today I was told that with that amount of attention I was good to go for at least another hundred years :) I just love the power of positivity.

May all our nicknames become 'zero'.
Gary

PSA 24.8. Jan 08
PSA 18.8. Feb 08
Biopsy 12 cores 7 positive
Gleason 8 [4+4]
RRP 04/29/08
Mucinous adenocarcinoma
Pos margins
PSA 0.0 8/06/08
Bilateral Inguinal Hernia Repair 7/10/08
PSA 0.02 10/08
PSA 0.04 12/08
PSA 0.06 03/09
PSA 0.04 04/09
PSA 0.07 07/09
PSA 0.15 10/09
PSA 0.17 01/10
PSA 0.30 04/10
PSA 0.71 12/10
PSA 0.67 03/11
PSA 0.66 06/11

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 6/20/2011 11:13 AM (GMT -6)   
Gary,

I want to make sure you understand my intent, I respect whatever treatment decisions you make or don't make. My new and current oncologist is not anti-supplement, but only agrees if under his supervision because of drug-interaction issues, and yes, we talked about the masking effect that can happen. With your stated numbers, it just makes me nervous (if they were my numbers). Good luck.

David
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06, 2/11 1.24, 4/11 3.81, 6/11 5.8
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/10

garyfoote
New Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 16
   Posted 6/20/2011 12:19 PM (GMT -6)   
David,

I definitely understand that the info you offered was from the heart and well intended. I'm quite thick skinned and rarely take offence. In fact I am a 'benefit of doubt' guy, perhaps to a fault. I wonder if you would be willing to share the masking specifics you've discussed with your oncologist? Which supplements or combination of supplements are considered suspected maskers?
Gary

PSA 24.8. Jan 08
PSA 18.8. Feb 08
Biopsy 12 cores 7 positive
Gleason 8 [4+4]
RRP 04/29/08
Mucinous adenocarcinoma
Pos margins
PSA 0.0 8/06/08
Bilateral Inguinal Hernia Repair 7/10/08
PSA 0.02 10/08
PSA 0.04 12/08
PSA 0.06 03/09
PSA 0.04 04/09
PSA 0.07 07/09
PSA 0.15 10/09
PSA 0.17 01/10
PSA 0.30 04/10
PSA 0.71 12/10
PSA 0.67 03/11
PSA 0.66 06/11

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 6/20/2011 6:11 PM (GMT -6)   
Gary,

This doctor likes to spend a lot of time with me on visits. I won't mention any specific name of a person, but I will glean off your posts the supplements and such that you have declared, and will ask my doctor what he thinks of each, if there would be any issues with him. Be happy to share that with you. Of course, his opinion is not as important as the opinions between you and your doctor(s). Be interesting just to compare notes.

David in SC
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos margin
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06, 2/11 1.24, 4/11 3.81, 6/11 5.8
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/10

Casey59
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 3172
   Posted 6/20/2011 7:08 PM (GMT -6)   
garyfoote said...
I wonder if you would be willing to share the masking specifics you've discussed with your oncologist? Which supplements or combination of supplements are considered suspected maskers?
 
 

I guess I'd like to hear those specifics, too, cuz that's not what I understand.  In the spirit of getting good information out there...

 

It is important for ALL patients to inform their physician about any type of medications and supplement they are taking…this is true for both PC patients and non-PC patients alike.  Of course, this is why the docs ask you on essentially every visit what you are taking.

But that being said, I was concerned that I had never heard anything regarding Purgatory’s warning about PSA “masking effect” from supplements…which made me wonder if this was a perpetuated myth.  There was no reference information provided in that post, so I was motivated to do a little “Mythbusting” (a favorite TV show) to see if could easily draw the conclusion that this myth was a) confirmed, b) plausible, or c) busted.

What I confirmed was that the earlier post might have mixed a little fact and fiction (definitely the makings of a good myth).

I did an online search of PubMed, an online database of all published scientific medical studies.  Most (not all) published papers require a subscription to read the full report.  The abstracts, however, are freely available online and one can typically understand the gist of the study and the key results.  Here’s some findings:

·         Avodart/Finasteride is a 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor commonly prescribed today for BPH and for PC.  It shrinks the prostate and artificially lowers PSA by about 50%.  Saw palmetto can act like a weak 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor and was—in the 1990s—thought to similarly “mask” PSA.  Later, however, a randomized study of more than 1,000 patients disproved this theory.  Here’s the PubMed LINK to the study.

Some articles (not research papers) still exist online that referenced the old saw palmetto mis-information, but I could not find anything scholarly related to “PSA masking” by any other supplements…but I’d be interested in any scientific findings others may provide. 

Meanwhile, I am aware of radiation oncologists asking PC patients to stop supplements/antioxidants during RT treatment periods.  I did another PubMed search using these key words:  “prostate cancer radiation supplement” and found one relevant study published in the last 10-years. 

·         The one study found that certain supplements/antioxidants commercially advertised specifically to “improve or increase sexual potency and alleviate symptoms associated with poor prostate health” (specifically:  Trinovin, Provelex, and Prostate Rx) interfere with radiation cancer-cell killing.  PubMed LINK. 

I believe it remains common practice for radiation oncologists to direct patients to more broadly stop all supplements during treatment…maybe others can confirm this.

As always, I’m open to new credible information…but as far as I can tell, this myth is busted!

Of course, as I said at the beginning, everyone should always communicate with their physician on ALL medications and supplements that they take…there could be other drug interactions that may be an issue.


 

--------------------------------

edit:  fixed 2 typos

Post Edited (Casey59) : 6/20/2011 6:38:46 PM (GMT-6)


Piano
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 847
   Posted 6/21/2011 6:01 PM (GMT -6)   
Good post Casey. I have seen this masking effect mentioned a few times in these forums, and at one time even feared it myself.

If there is any truth in the masking "myth" then I also would like to see the evidence. If there is no evidence, please let us not continue to spread this misinformation.
No symptoms; PSA 5.7; Gleason 4+5=9; cancer in 4/12 cores
Non-nerve-sparing RRP 7 March 2008 age 63
Organ confined, neg margins. Gleason downgrade 4+4=8
Fully continent
Bimix worked well; now using just VED
PSA undetectable at first but then rose to 0.4, doubling time 7 months
Following diet change, PSA static at 0.4...

garyfoote
New Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 16
   Posted 6/21/2011 6:22 PM (GMT -6)   
According to my doctors there is no truth to the masking effect and I should not be worried about it. That being said I am still interested in hearing what yours have to say on the topic, Purgatory. Any and all info is to be considered IMHO.
Gary

PSA 24.8. Jan 08
PSA 18.8. Feb 08
Biopsy 12 cores 7 positive
Gleason 8 [4+4]
RRP 04/29/08
Mucinous adenocarcinoma
Pos margins
PSA 0.0 8/06/08
Bilateral Inguinal Hernia Repair 7/10/08
PSA 0.02 10/08
PSA 0.04 12/08
PSA 0.06 03/09
PSA 0.04 04/09
PSA 0.07 07/09
PSA 0.15 10/09
PSA 0.17 01/10
PSA 0.30 04/10
PSA 0.71 12/10
PSA 0.67 03/11
PSA 0.66 06/11

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 25393
   Posted 6/21/2011 7:04 PM (GMT -6)   
Since, some of you come across as being smarter than the doctors, and have your minds made up in a negative way on the subject I brought up to Gary, I will keep any opinions from my oncologist to myself. Seems like the trend here now is to nit pick every post. Believe whatever you want to believe. I have my faith in real doctors, not at-home internet searchers with no medical backgrounds.

Gary - if you still want to know, what my oncologist thinks on what you are taking, my e-mail address is public here. Drop me a line tommorow evening, and I will give you a report. I always keep my word.

david in sc

Post Edited (Purgatory) : 6/21/2011 6:15:09 PM (GMT-6)


Casey59
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 3172
   Posted 6/21/2011 8:43 PM (GMT -6)   
Piano said...
If there is any truth in the masking "myth" then I also would like to see the evidence.
Purgatory said...
I will keep any opinions from my oncologist to myself.
 
Don't feel like you have to take your ball and go home...
 
 
 
 
 
 
I've always said I'm open to new, credible information, Piano.  Having no formal medical training, I find myself relying on trusted sources.  I'm glad to help by sharing those sources, and I often add my own helpful interpretation of the data because other PC brothers here at HW are often in need of the same fact-based data.   This is a way that I can "pay forward" the similar support I received from helpful brothers who traveled the road ahead of me.
 
There was a recent (maybe a month ago) thread about "PC Myths" here at HW.  I had many ideas floating around in my head about replies that I could/should make to that thread, but I was just too busy at the time.  There is lots of myths, and unfortunately just plain mis-information, out there.
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