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Why do “we” eat so much fatty red meat?

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BillyMac
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Posted 10/18/2012 5:40 PM (GMT -8)

Zimac said...
Tried red meat years ago as a youngster and never liked the looks of it or the gamey smell of it. I'm the only one ordering fish in a steak house.

Despite not eating red meat all my life, exercising, never smoking or drinking, eating organic and no family history of cancer, I still developed cancer. Guess its environmental. I can't figure it out.

Zimac


Environmental factors definitely play a part but for the most part it simply is the luck of the draw and a dash of genetics. Considering the complexity of living organisms it is astounding it does not happen far more frequently. I have death registrations for all my ancestors (this includes all brothers and sisters of my direct line going back to the late 1700s. Only one case of breast cancer 100 years ago and 1 case of basal cell carcinoma in the 1920s------ but that didn't protect me from prostate cancer nor my sister from melanoma.
Bill
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Swimom
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Posted 10/18/2012 5:44 PM (GMT -8)
Red meat, like everthing else, can be bad for us. The benefits of a 3oz. serving of daisy the cow provides 10 different nutreints and about 160 calories. Heme in red meat is easily digested. The zinc, iron and B12 help protect the immune system and provide important needs for pregnant women and developing baby. Red meat has it's place on the plate IMHO :-)

The one observation I've noticed with the huge push (which began in the 70's) to eliminate red meat from our heart healthy diets is the seemingly massive increase in dementia folks out there. This leads me to the conclusion that while red meat may not be as heart healthy as fish and chicken, my brain, nerve conduction and muscles appreciate a portion a time or two each week smilewinkgrin Not to mention, when Paul is real grouchy, a grilled steak is just what he needs. Works everytime.

Swim

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Raddad
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Posted 10/18/2012 5:58 PM (GMT -8)
Grins

Cheers Swim!

A grilled steak - perfect to chase the grouchiness away.:)

Hugs!

Bud
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davidg
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Posted 10/18/2012 6:22 PM (GMT -8)
was looking at this. Go to min 5 of the video where they discuss diet/fatty food and cancer www.envirovideo.com/video/ECU511.html
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PeterDisAbelard.
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Posted 10/19/2012 4:48 AM (GMT -8)
DavidG: I watched minute five of your video and I am afraid it left me unconvinced. She lost me, actually, before she got to the cancer bit. She started that segment with "For me as an ecologist, our diet..." Harrumph. Its a bit like watching a guy with a black hat and ringlets tell me "For me as I rabbi," and then launch into the health risks of pork.

She seems like a nice, earnest young woman. She reminds me of my niece who is also quite the activist, is very dear to me, and with whom I agree on nothing. The tag after her name identified her as, among other things, a cancer survivor. I am glad she is doing well but I'm afraid her dietary advice will not change my life.

Thanks, by the way, for pointing me to minute five. I'm not sure I would have made it through minutes one through four.
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davidg
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Posted 10/19/2012 4:53 AM (GMT -8)
fair enough. But she's no slouch by the way. They're even making a movie of her story and how the environment can play a role in our cancer. I don't think this is a controversial or too hotly debated topic.

I'm not following her dietary advice either out of choice, but it doesn't mean she isn't touching on some stuff we may want to at least hear.

www.filmlinc.com/films/on-sale/living-downstream
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Casey59
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Posted 10/19/2012 7:00 AM (GMT -8)
Wow!   It’s astonishing that educated men will go to extreme lengths to cut, burn or poison prostate cancer from their bodies (sometimes significant amounts of PC, but often tiny amounts of possibly indolent PC) while suffering traumatic consequences from the side effect, but feel that there is too much “momentum” in their everyday lifestyle choices to change, even when it’s been shown that PC both risk and progression is strongly tied to diet and lifestyle.   A very small percentage of prostate cancers are hereditary; the majority are sporadic (environmental; driven by lifestyle).   The rates of PC diagnosis will continue to be high until we get more widespread education on the available means of prevention …and fix our SAD diets.   On the other hand, many men have responded to the "wake-up call" that they've received about their own mortality, and have taken steps to "stack the odds in their favor."  It seems to me that no one in the world would more motivated to seek out an anti-cancer regimen than a cancer survivor who wants to be sure he remains a survivor...       Post Edited (Casey59) : 10/19/2012 9:13:37 AM (GMT-6)
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davidg
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Posted 10/19/2012 7:10 AM (GMT -8)
Casey, mine was genetic. I was actually told yesterday. You do not know that a very small portion of PCa is hereditary and cannot make that claim.

I certainly agree that environment and lifestyle choices play a role. That's why i posted the link. But, like what appears to be the vast majority of educated men here, I do not choose to live my life in such a rigid fashion. This in itself is a lifestyle choice most of us seem to make. So you shouldn't be astonished or, in the attempt to have socially acceptable discussion, come across in such a patronizing e pedantic manner.

I have many great friends and relatives who are just as passionate as you are about causes such as this (and others). I see it far too often that their passion and genuine concern sometimes crosses the line into militant and didactic discourse. Remember, nobody is here to listen to a lecture.

I know you mean well. I just think you could be more effective if you actually listened to the other side and appreciated their educated choices and desires.
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PeterDisAbelard.
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Posted 10/19/2012 7:59 AM (GMT -8)
Casey, I agree with part of your analysis. The science says that a small but significant number of cases of prostate cancer are caused by heredity. That leaves the rest to be caused by diet, improper exercise, smoking, environmental exposures, evil plots by big pharmaceutical companies, space aliens, negative waves and Internet addiction [wild-haired scientist waving his arms here.] Sadly, the science gets a bit vague about which of these other factors is the most important, and the research results are either ambiguous or poorly supported and tendentious.

As a result of my PC diagnosis I have made dietary and lifestyle changes. After forty years of obesity I have reduced my body weight to what I weighed my first year in high school, but I did it eating a diet that would terrify you. I have tripled my trips to the gym (I now actually work out as often as I previously theoretically worked out) but that is mostly to try to head off some of the side effects of the hormone therapy and not because I think it will directly affect my cancer. I have, in short, looked at the evidence available, selected some actions to take and taken them. I'm sure the other posters here are the same.

The thing is that, as educated men, we can see that much of the science is vague and contradictory: lots of "experts" running around like Chicken Little offering different explanations of why the sky is falling. We pick and choose -- you can't do everything -- and so we make our decisions but keep our minds more-or-less open.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that you are right about the importance of diet in prevention and control of PC... but I don't buy into the red meat thing. There is a strong correlation between PC and the Metabolic Syndrome. I have found a diet that seems to control my Metabolic Syndrome (by reducing my insulin resistance and limiting blood glucose) and I am betting that it will be good for my PC as well.

I have looked at the evidence and made my decision. As it happens, I am betting against you on the red meat thing. I'm just not that impressed by your piece of the sky.
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Casey59
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Posted 10/19/2012 8:27 AM (GMT -8)
Peter (my fellow Caryite), I’m just the messenger, helping to get the good news out.   And let me say that if you or anyone else are solid an unwavering in your choices to eat lots of fatty red meat…so be it.   I know from the positive reinforcement I’ve received that there are lots of others who are “hungry” (pun intended) for good information to “stack the odds in their favor.”   Feel free to opt-out…   A fair amount of research has taken place about hereditary PC (again, not “my” work).   Another HW member (SHU93) posted a link to THIS article by Dr Kathleen Cooney.   In a reply to SHU93’s post, I added a link to another article Dr Cooney published in the AUA News , which summarizes a “state of the art” lecture she delivered to the 2011 annual meeting of the American Urological Association.   Here’s the LINK to the AUA News article written by Dr Cooney but I’ll give you the Cliffs Notes version in the bullets below:    ·          In truly hereditary forms of prostate cancer, which may account for up to 5 percent of all cases of prostate cancer, there is a clear and strong set of genetic signals over several generations.   [Researchers typically characterize this risk as “rare,” SUH93’s article specifically calls it “a small fraction,” but this is the type of PC gene that was characterized in that article.] ·          Familial forms of prostate cancer, which seem to account for about 15 percent of all prostate cancers, the evidence of a genetic component is less clear and may not be as strong from generation to generation. ·          “As with other common malignancies, the majority of prostate cancers are sporadic , occurring in men with no family history.”   (I thought that this sentence would be easiest just to quote (copy/paste) directly from Dr Cooney's article in the AUA New   Sporadic cancers are an environmental disease.   Cancer researchers use the term “environmental” broadly to mean anything that is NOT genetic.   (For hopefully unnecessary additional clarity, “environmental” is not merely pollution-caused, as in “Environmental Protection Agency.”)   It is nearly impossible to prove what caused a cancer in any individual because most cancers have multiple contributing causes, and every body reacts slightly differently to their environment.   It makes no sense to blame your PC on yourself for eating way too much red meat, for example, because while red meat is an increased cancer risk factor (it “fuels” cancer growth), there likely are other contributing ("fueling") factors…the net impact of which are impossible to isolate.   Keep in mind that there is also a strong socionomic component which drives the environmental risk factors – if your family regularly serves each other a lot of the foods that “fuel” cancer and not many of the foods that “fight” cancer (see this LINK), then your offspring will be prone to do the same because it is what they learned at home .   Teach your children well.   "Hope" should not be your sole strategy for helping the next generation prevent PC.   Teach the next generations to exercise frequently and eat better than the SAD (Standard American Diet) if you want to make a difference in their healthy lives.    
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Casey59
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Posted 10/19/2012 8:33 AM (GMT -8)
By the way, here's an interesting Medscape article titled Prostate Cancer in the Family: Risks Are Inflated which highlights this interesting point:

"This result must not be interpreted as meaning that men with 2 brothers with prostate cancer have a 22-fold increased risk of developing symptomatic prostate cancer, compared with the general population," the authors write. "But rather that such men are very likely to undergo PSA testing."

 

Thus, the authors want clinicians to know that, when counseling men with prostate cancer in the family, "familial aggregation of prostate cancer may be at least partially caused by increased diagnostic activity."

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davidg
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Posted 10/19/2012 8:35 AM (GMT -8)
genetics of cancer

/cpmc.coriell.org/%28X%281%29%29/Sections/Education/CancerRisk.aspx?PgId=63
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A Yooper
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Posted 10/19/2012 9:17 AM (GMT -8)
Holy Cow! As a somewhat casual observer to this one I gotta tell you I feel like I'm watching a tennis match, the ball keeps going from one side of the court to the other! All good stuff guys, just remember as you continue to joust keep it on the up for the rest of us - i.e. opinions and data but not shoved down the throat - especially for the newbies that won't know how to take this friendly competition!
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Casey59
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Posted 10/19/2012 9:20 AM (GMT -8)
A Yooper, from your  cool "Where are people from?" thread, I found that Peter is from my hometown!  It's all good!
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PeterDisAbelard.
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Posted 10/19/2012 9:23 AM (GMT -8)
Casey,

A fellow Caryite? Interesting. You have a Chapel Hillean accent when you post things here.

We should get together some time where we can argue properly, pounding on the table and worrying the other customers... Maybe the hot bar at Whole Foods; there are several things that I can eat there and they have tofu

... oh, wait, soy products and estrogens ...

OK, then alfalfa sprouts

... or do they have too much cyanide these days? ...

I know, acai berry tea

... but are anti-oxidents good or bad this week (where is my almanac?) well

Surely there is something there you can eat.
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A Yooper
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Posted 10/19/2012 9:23 AM (GMT -8)
O.K., NOW I get what you meant by a fellow "Caryite!"  wink
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PeterDisAbelard.
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Posted 10/19/2012 9:26 AM (GMT -8)
We say "Caryite" because "Caryan" has an unfortunate homophone.
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Casey59
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Posted 10/19/2012 9:27 AM (GMT -8)
I like your sense of humor, Peter...

Actually, I've gone Yankee...I now live near Chicago (near A Yooper).  I made a trip to the Outer Banks in September and had a wonderful time.  Stayed in Cary one night after arriving at RDU.  Cary has changed so much since I lived there that I get lost...except when I'm near the High School (Go Imps!), which is near where I lived (Pirate's Cove).

added later:   BTW, had my annual dose of eastern NC BBQ when I was in NC...I love it!  Stopped at Wilbur's in Goldsboro on the way to the beach.  Goldsboro used to be on the main route between Raleigh and Emerald Isle, but when they put in I-40 traffic shifted away from there.  Wilbur's still does a good business.

Post Edited (Casey59) : 10/19/2012 2:25:39 PM (GMT-6)

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BillyMac
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Posted 10/19/2012 2:01 PM (GMT -8)

Casey59 said...
teach your children well

Teach your children well?
Given the results of that Pubmed study regarding the effects (both physical and intellectual) of a meat deprived diet on those Kenyan children, that's a pretty negligent roll of the dice when advocating its imposition on growing kids.
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Casey59
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Posted 10/19/2012 2:06 PM (GMT -8)
Glad to see that you haven't lost your sense of humor, either, BillyMac.

That Keynan study highlighted the nutritional absence of fresh vegetables, fruits, AND proteins (of which meat can be one source, but there are many others).

Fatty red meat substantially raises the risk of cancer (and heart disease, which kills 10X more men in the US than PC).  Indeed, "teach your children well."

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davidg
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Posted 10/19/2012 2:14 PM (GMT -8)
they need to eat some meat growing up.
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davidg
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Posted 10/19/2012 2:19 PM (GMT -8)
"What's missing in this pile of food? Meat, and without it children are damaged, say scientists"

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/feb/22/food.sciencenews

"Meats and Beans: Serve lean proteins every day, such as beef, pork, chicken, fish, beans, tofu, or eggs. When preparing any protein-rich food, opt to serve it steamed, baked or grilled, not fried.

www.epicurious.com/articlesguides/healthy/news/nutritionalguidelinesforkids

Post Edited (davidg) : 10/19/2012 4:23:25 PM (GMT-6)

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davidg
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Posted 10/19/2012 3:14 PM (GMT -8)
i think one of the problems in this discussion is the difference in how red meat is consumed in America as opposed to most other parts of the world. Americans no doubt consume much more red meat than other people. Probably excessive amounts. When you eat red meat every day, sometimes multiple times a day and consume significant amounts of packaged meats with nitrates you're going to see an effect on your health. I Europe we ate far less red meat in portion size and in frequency. Once a week was probably the norm. Cost of meat was a contributing factor, but so was a more varied and healthy diet in general.

Also, there are far greater restrictions on meat in Europe. We only purchase organic meat when we eat it here.

I think those two factors definitely weigh heavily on health issues related to meat consumption.

Eliminating meat altogether is excessive. In fact, there have been stories of parents raising their kids as Vegans as immoral.
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Sephie
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Posted 10/20/2012 4:41 AM (GMT -8)
Historically, the medical community thought red meat was healthy because it’s a good source of protein, iron, zinc, thiamine, riboflavin and vitamin B12. Despite these benefits, red meat consumption is associated with higher rates of some cancers and overall mortality rates. But it might actually be the preparation or processing, not the red meat itself, causing these negative correlations.

Not all red meat is high in saturated fat, and some studies have shown that consumption of lean red meat doesn't cause a significant increase in cholesterol levels. Most studies focus on red meat itself without controlling for fat content, so it’s unclear whether all red meat or just fatty red meat is unhealthy.

Certain types of cancers, including colon, breast, stomach and prostate cancer, are more common in individuals who consume large amounts of red meat. It’s important to remember, however, that cancer studies group together all types of red meat. Bacon, cold cuts, hamburgers, steaks, hot dogs and other beef products vary in fat content and might not harm the body the same way.
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PeterDisAbelard.
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Posted 10/20/2012 7:54 AM (GMT -8)
As a thought experiment, imagine a person from the unhealthiest group, those who consume large amounts of red meat -- bacon, cold cuts, hamburgers, steaks, hot dogs and other beef products. Is your mental image complete? If so, a few predictions:

If you are male, the person you imagined is male. If you are female, he is probably still male but I am less sure. If she is female, kindly imagine someone male to proceed.

He is probably overweight, dressed in work clothes and worn shoes. He is very likely wearing a hat with a logo on it for a sports team, a car or tractor manufacturer, or a food product. He doesn't make a lot of money and much of what he does make goes to gas for his pickup truck and possibly more for cigarettes. He probably doesn't belong to a gym but if he does he spends a lot of time with the free weights and is a stranger to the Stairmaster.

How did I do?

It doesn't matter. I was just waving a strawman to get you to firm up the person you were imagining. Now take a look at that imaginary person. How many of the attributes that you have imagined for him could also correlate with overall mortality? How many of them can be confounders in an observational study? I realize that the authors of the various "red meat is bad for you" studies claim to have allowed for other variables but how many things on your mental checklist for your typical red-meat-eater can they control for?

Some things to think about, if you like.

And finally, since my weekend honey-do list looms over me and I can't spend all day on the computer, a link to some thoughts from my favorite heretical dietary science writer: garytaubes.com/2012/03/science-pseudoscience-nutritional-epidemiology-and-meat/

fixed typo

Post Edited (PeterDisAbelard) : 10/20/2012 2:20:16 PM (GMT-6)

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