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Gedman's MRI/questions

Chronic Illness Forums
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Prostate Cancer
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gedman
Veteran Member
Joined : Jan 2013
Posts : 1123
Posted 3/13/2013 10:55 AM (GMT -7)
I had my prostate MRI yesterday (along with general pre-op workup) to get ready for RALP with Dr. Ash Tewari on April 3rd.

I'm a bit confused by the MRI report. Here's the text:
------------------------------------------------
MRI Pelvis with and without Contrast

FINDINGS

Prostate: Measures 4.1 x 2.4 x 3.6cm, giving rise to a volume of 18.4 cc.

Mild degree of benign prostatic hypertrophy. No postbiopsy changes.

Diffuse low T2 signal throughout the peripheral zone, but with more masslike area in the left base to mid gland with mild bulging of the capsule at this level, but without restricted diffusion or suspicious enhancement kinetics.

Similar diffuse low T2 signal throughout the peripheral zone of the right gland without a discrete focus identified and no associated restricted diffusion or suspicious enhancement kinetics.

Mild bulging of the capsule of the left base to mid gland. Otherwise, no evidence of extracapsular extension.(Bold emphasis from Gedman, not from the radiologist) No seminal vesicle invasion.

Lymph nodes: Not enlarged.

Osseous structures: No evidence of metastases.

Anterior pelvic wall: No inguinal hernia.

IMPRESSION:

Diffuse low T2 signal throughout the peripheral zone without associated restricted diffusion or suspicious enhancement kinetics. Abnormal signal appears to have mass effect in the left base to mid gland with mild bulging of the capsule, thus, it is possible diffuse signal abnormality represents infiltrative tumor throughout the bilateral peripheral zone. If this is the case, then there may be mild extracapular extension on the left.

No seminal vesicle invasion.

------------------------------------------------
Questions:
1) Does the bold line imply that there appears to be extracapsular extension on the left base-mid region? Hard for me to understand exactly what "Otherwise" means in that sentence.
2) Is "bulging" synonymous with "extracapsular extension"?
3) If there is extracapsular extension on the left base-mid, how "bad" is that? (Means that nerves may/will need to be removed on that side? Etc.)
4) I had countless DREs from numerous specialists and none of them detected any prostate abnormalities. How is that possible if there is bulging on one side?
5) I presume that my stage is now downgraded beyond T1C. The report says T2, but if there is extracapsular extension that would put my stage at T3a, no?
6) Any other thoughts/reactions to the report?

I was very upbeat about my situation until now. But, that report has me a bit shaken over worries about nerve removal on one side and implications for continence/ED.

Thanks,

Gedman
Latest update (as of 2/28):
41y
Wife + 5 kids
PSA 9
Prostate size 21g
BX 1/17/13
Diagnosed 1/28/13
Positive 5 of 12 cores: G3+4 40%, G3+4 5%, G3+4 10%, G3+4 15%, G3+3 10%. One core PNI.
CT scan and Bone scan negative
MRI shows some bulging on left base/mid region
RALP with Dr. Ash Tewari scheduled for 4/3/13

Post Edited (gedman) : 3/13/2013 12:06:58 PM (GMT-6)

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Casey59
Veteran Member
Joined : Sep 2009
Posts : 3172
Posted 3/13/2013 11:15 AM (GMT -7)
I’m not a radiologist.  Sorry, that should have already been obvious, but I wrote that so as to minimize the goofy side comments which may have otherwise followed...   T2 is a reference to the MRI imaging, and has absolutely nothing to do with your PC staging.   T2 in MRI imaging is a reference to the orbital alignment of atoms relative to the magnetic field. The diffuse low T2 signal throughout the peripheral zone (which is usually produces a higher signal relative to the other zones) is a typical characterization for PC.   With normal aging the transition zone of the prostate generally increases and compresses the peripheral zone. Extra Capsular Extensions are seen as a focal irregular bulge, asymmetry, or invasion of the nerve bundles.     See this paper by Dr Peter Carroll:   LINK
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gedman
Veteran Member
Joined : Jan 2013
Posts : 1123
Posted 3/13/2013 3:32 PM (GMT -7)
Ok, I have "good" news. I made a slightly gutsy move, and found the name of the radiologist that wrote the report. Then, I was able to get her direct email address (which wasn't easy), and I sent her a question directly.

My question:
----------------------------------------
Can you clarify this line: "Mild bulging of the capsule of the left base to mid gland. Otherwise, no evidence of extracapsular extension. No seminal vesicle invasion." I'm particularly unclear about the use of "Otherwise".

Am I correct to understand that you found bulging on the left base/mid region, which implies the presence of extracapsular extension in that area - but you found no bulging or extracapsular extension in any other area of the prostate?

Generally, are "bulging" and "extracapsular extension" synonymous in your report?

----------------------------------------

Her answer:
----------------------------------------
Mild bulging of the capsule can just be related to mass effect by an underlying tumor or represent extracapsular extension. The bulging is smooth and not irregular, the latter of which would be more worrisome for extracapsular extension. Bulging in your case "raises the possibility of extracapsular extension", meaning there is some chance but not necessarily a high chance of extension.
----------------------------------------

I'm somewhat less shaken by the MRI report now. Exhale.

-Gedman

(PS. Bluebird: I find your comments on my posts to be particularly helpful. Perhaps because I'm using the same docs that your husband used. Thanks so much!)
Latest update (as of 2/28):
41y
Wife + 5 kids
PSA 9
Prostate size 21g
BX 1/17/13
Diagnosed 1/28/13
Positive 5 of 12 cores: G3+4 40%, G3+4 5%, G3+4 10%, G3+4 15%, G3+3 10%. One core PNI.
CT scan and Bone scan negative
MRI shows some bulging on left base/mid region
RALP with Dr. Ash Tewari scheduled for 4/3/13

Post Edited (gedman) : 3/13/2013 4:43:28 PM (GMT-6)

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tchl
New Member
Joined : Sep 2017
Posts : 3
Posted 9/2/2017 8:28 PM (GMT -7)
I was wanting to follow up on how you are doing after the operation.

I just had an MRI after I was doing watchful waiting for over 5 years where my PSA was stable from the time of diagnosis at 4.8. I have been doing the bloodwork every six months and apart from the time the PSA spiked a bit after two biopsies, it stayed at 4.8. However when I did the 3T MRI, I was surprised to find out that I was staged at PI-RADS V2: 5 with a mild capsular bulging in the left postrolateral peripheral zone. I feel that I need to take treatment as this now raises concern for extracapsular invasion. The seminal vesicles, neurovascular bundles, bladder neck, membrane uretha, lymph nodes and bone marrow all appear normal.

My concern is that with the possibility of extracapsular invasion, what would the success rates of a surgery be. I also surprised that the concern seems to have grown without any any increase in my psa so if there is disease after the surgery, would it show up if my cancer is not exhibiting itself with an increasing psa.
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Tall Allen
Elite Member
Joined : Jul 2012
Posts : 10645
Posted 9/3/2017 11:24 AM (GMT -7)
tchi-

Welcome to the forum.

Understand that MRIs are not very good at staging - they are wrong about ECE 33-43% of the time, especially when there is "mild" bulging. The bulging, if it is there, may have been there for years. If so, your PSA has always reflected it.

For surgery, the important thing to know is whether the cancer has eaten into the surrounding tissues. If it has, surgery may not be your best choice. The surgeon can try to cut wider, but that may compromise potency and continence. And if it is a high grade cancer (you didn't mention your Gleason score), the chance that it has irretrievably spread is increased. In that case, radiation may be preferable.
Allen - not an MD
•PSA=7.3, prostate volume=55cc, 8/17 cores G6 5-35% involvement
•SBRT 9 yr onc. results •SBRT 7 yr QOL results
•treated 10/2010 at age 57 at UCLA,PSA now: 0.1,no lasting urinary, rectal or sexual SEs
my PC blog
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tchl
New Member
Joined : Sep 2017
Posts : 3
Posted 9/3/2017 12:46 PM (GMT -7)
Thanks Allen.

My gleason score when they found the cancer was 3+0 = graded as Gleason 6 at the right side. It was 1/12 and only 5% in that core. With the second biopsy they found no cores positive only one graded as suspicious, yet they seem to have found substantial decreased T2 intensity measuring 2.5x 2x 2 on the left side

I was diagnosed with cancer at age 47 and now I'm 52. My psa has stayed pretty much constant - 4.7 at the time of diagnosis and now 4.8.

The word mild bulging seems to indicate that it may have a more rounded contour - no?

I am wondering if I should a have biopsy done prior to planning surgery or whether I should take a second opinion/second MRI.
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Tall Allen
Elite Member
Joined : Jul 2012
Posts : 10645
Posted 9/3/2017 3:32 PM (GMT -7)
You seem to be doing great with active surveillance - why are you considering treatment? On your next scheduled biopsy, just have them take some cores through the capsule in that area. MRIs only show suspicious areas - you have to have a biopsy to confirm cancer.
Allen - not an MD
•PSA=7.3, prostate volume=55cc, 8/17 cores G6 5-35% involvement
•SBRT 9 yr onc. results •SBRT 7 yr QOL results
•treated 10/2010 at age 57 at UCLA,PSA now: 0.1,no lasting urinary, rectal or sexual SEs
my PC blog
profile picture
tchl
New Member
Joined : Sep 2017
Posts : 3
Posted 9/10/2017 9:50 PM (GMT -7)
Thanks Allen. My latest psa that was done last week has dropped to 4.4 from 4.8. I am scheduled for an appointment with my URO later this month and will ask about doing a biopsy at the area identified by the MRI. Is it easy to do a biopsy at the "mild bulging". I see that your psa is now 0.1, is that normal after surgery or did you end up with SBRT? Thanks.
profile picture
Tall Allen
Elite Member
Joined : Jul 2012
Posts : 10645
Posted 9/10/2017 10:18 PM (GMT -7)
SBRT -7 years ago, and yes, 0.1 is excellent.
Allen - not an MD
•PSA=7.3, prostate volume=55cc, 8/17 cores G6 5-35% involvement
•SBRT 9 yr onc. results •SBRT 7 yr QOL results
•treated 10/2010 at age 57 at UCLA,PSA now: 0.1,no lasting urinary, rectal or sexual SEs
my PC blog
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