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Building muscle with no T while on Lupron

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Gunner34
Veteran Member
Joined : Jan 2014
Posts : 624
Posted 12/19/2014 11:36 PM (GMT -8)
My research on this topic usually leads to an advertisement for amino acids or testosterone replacement. This is not an option for me.

Is it possible to gain muscle mass with zero testosterone while on Lupron & Casodex? I walk rigorously and frequently to raise heart rate and achieve fitness ( usually on treadmill with incline). Running is hard on the joints and recent MRI's showed arthritis, bursitis, and labrum tears. I try to work with dumbbells as well. Cycling or swimming are my next best options I think.
But will weight training actually build muscle or does the activity just slow down the muscle damage from ADT? It seems bad enough that there are bone, muscle and joint aches which make working out difficult and painful. But, I am putting in the time and not seeing any gains in fitness and my midsection, arms and chest are becoming increasingly soft. I don't need to look like an action hero, but I would like to feel good about myself. I have always been fit and it is discouraging to deteriorate like this.
Does anybody know how to generate muscle while enduring this hellish, life saving Lupron?
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Cyclone-ISU
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Joined : Oct 2014
Posts : 2945
Posted 12/20/2014 8:40 AM (GMT -8)
Dear Gunner,

 

We are in the same age bracket, generally.  I am also on ADT, as you are, so I can relate.

 

I try to go walking outside every night, when weather allows.  Last winter was cold and icy, and I began to slack off in my fitness regiment.   So this winter, I have realized I need to set a new fitness plan to get through another winter season.

 

I have been walking outside at night when possible.  I have also been visiting a work-out gym once or twice a week, just for something new.  I have been trying the various exercise bikes, stair-steppers, treadmills, and so forth.  I am also going to get a small set of weights to lift at home, just in the interest of building back some muscle tone in my upper arms.

 

When winter weather really kicks in, I am going to walk a mile or two in the evenings at the gym or at a shopping mall, whatever works out best.  I figure that if I do a better job through the winter, then I will feel more fit when spring weather returns.

 

I have also added a LOT more fruits and vegetables and grains to my eating plan.   I've gotten rid of red meat and dairy products and desserts and junk food.   I went "cold turkey" on all of those things and don't really miss them now.  I drink water, unsweetened iced tea, and fruit-flavored green tea, without any sugar added.  I avoid a LOT of calories every day just by drinking water and unsweetened tea each day.   I think changing my food choices, plus drinking water and tea without any calories, has also helped me stay in better shape, when I add that to my fitness activities.

 

Just like you, I don't want or need to be Superman at some work-out gym, I just want to stay in basic shape and maintain a decent level of fitness.  My nightly walks seem to really help.   With winter coming on, I realized that making a better plan for cold winter weather was what I needed to do for this winter.  So I plan to keep up the walking each evening, whether it be outside or inside somewhere, plus a visit once or twice a week to a work-out gym, just as a pick-me-up to get through the winter.  I work every day, so I need a fairly simple fitness plan that fits my schedule.   At least we are TRYING to stay fit during these treatments, right?

 

Keep forging ahead,

Cyclone

 

 

Post Edited (ISU-CycloneFan) : 12/20/2014 1:58:04 PM (GMT-7)

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60Michael
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Posted 12/20/2014 9:11 AM (GMT -8)
In December I turn 66 yo and workout with weights 3 days a week for 45 minutes and run 6 miles three times a week. In the summer I swim in the nice cold North Georgia Mtn. lakes a few times a week, and the cold water seems to have a therapeutic impact on my body. But at this age and having been an athlete all of my life I have unrealistic expectations due both to my age and also being on HT. I am so vain that I still think Carly Simon wrote that song about me.

Having said all of that, I would hate to see what my body looked like if I didn't exercise and remind myself that it is "good enough." And all that I have to do is to see myself in the mirror late at night with my Depends on to learn that I better not take life too seriously.
Michael
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Gunner34
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Joined : Jan 2014
Posts : 624
Posted 12/20/2014 10:11 AM (GMT -8)
Cyclone
I agree that walking is very beneficial. I think many people underrate the benefits if walking, especially outside. As you mention, the cold can make a big impact on our exercise routine. I live in Minnesota so I can relate to it being downright dangerous to go outside in extreme temps.

Michael
Thank you. As a former athlete myself, I understand exactly where you are coming from. Now could you write something to get that mental picture of you standing in front of the mirror out of my mind?

Post Edited (Gunner34) : 12/20/2014 11:22:26 AM (GMT-7)

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Gunner34
Veteran Member
Joined : Jan 2014
Posts : 624
Posted 12/20/2014 10:26 AM (GMT -8)
Still have a question about whether it's possible to gain muscle without any testosterone. It appears that it's working well for some guys to add strength training to their workouts while on Lupron. But is this just slowing down the reduction of muscle or is there actual muscle gain?
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60Michael
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Joined : Jan 2009
Posts : 2504
Posted 12/20/2014 11:29 AM (GMT -8)
I have taken the mirror down Gunner. LOL. On my surgery report he describes me as well developed. That was at age 60, but even with my current exercise routine I have lost muscle mass especially in my chest area. That started with the HT. Prior to that I was able to maintain muscle mass. Not sure what the Dr.s would say about it and it is a good question. BTW, I played football and Basketball while living in Golden Valley, Mn. way back when. Hockey and wrestling seemed to be the two big sports up there.
Michael
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compiler
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Joined : Nov 2009
Posts : 7698
Posted 12/20/2014 11:37 AM (GMT -8)
This is my workout:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Walk to/from gym (.8 miles each way) on nice days (not in winter, sadly)
ELLIPTICAL--12-25 MINS.
TRICEP PRESS
BICEPS CURL
MATRIX CHEST PRESS
MATRIX ABS. CRUNCH
CYBER PLATE LOADED ROW
ROPE PULLDOWN
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I did a few others, but was having difficulty (groin pain or back issues).

Most of this is upper body. I have knee issues that prevent any of the leg strengthening machines.

Having said all that, I do get lazy at times and have streaks where I do not do go to the gym. I have had some back/foot/shoulder problems that also given me reason not to go. The real trick is to just get in the habit and just do it. I found at times when I got into a routine and did it 2-3 times a week, I would feel crappy if I did NOT do it. That's a good place to be.


Now, sadly, to answer your question, as time went on while doing HT, things got much harder at the gym and I really struggled to maintain my level of fitness. In fact, at my lowest point, my T was down to 10 and I found myself tiring very easily. I would kind of get out of breath easily. I normally do 10 reps, 3 times. I would rest for maybe 45 seconds between reps. When under HT, I found myself needing to rest for 2-3 minutes between reps and sometimes only being able to do 2 sets. It gets very discouraging. Like you, my goal is not to look great, but to maintain some semblance of fitness/healthiness.

I also put on weight with HT and my man boobs are now here to stay (thank you, Casodex).

Mel
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SteelGuy
Regular Member
Joined : Jul 2012
Posts : 314
Posted 12/22/2014 2:32 PM (GMT -8)
Gunner:

I'm in the same boat ... here's what i found.

I started by doing a lot of 'core' exercises to get back so that i could even exercise safely. At one point over the Summer, i was exercising pretty heavily and only at that point did i feel like i was gaining. Other than that, I've only been maintaining and then as soon as i miss a week, falling behind.

When i was gaining strength and energy, i was doing a full weight lifting routine in the AM three days a week, then in the afternoon twice a week i was also meeting with a trainer and doing 'core' exercises and repeating some of the weight lifting. The other three days i was doing high intensity interval training on an elliptical like machine that was easier on my joints.

All of that went to a dark place when i went on vacation in August and then started chemo. I could barely keep up with the afternoon trainer meetings at that point.

I'm looking forward to the New Year though and starting up again ... we're moving to Boston into a new apartment Feb 1st with a fitness center and i'm looking for a new trainer in town, so it's going to be a priority.

Merry Christmas!

Ray
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A Yooper
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Joined : Jul 2012
Posts : 2149
Posted 12/22/2014 2:53 PM (GMT -8)
Gunner, I can't say anything lifting and ADT - but I can simply add a couple of thoughts. As an athlete I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but -

Considering your diet - eating a diet that supplies energy and muscle-building nutrients, such as complex carbohydrates - whole grain rice, quinoa, sweet potatoes and yams, you know the stuff that provides slow-release energy, along with the lean proteins -- eggs, chicken, fish, all stuff that is not conducive to hurting the PCa.

Lifting wise - I too have joint and ligament problems and am also no longer interested in looking like The Hulk, however still want to look athletic. To that I've switched over to lower weight but increased reps that are easier on those joints and tendons, but still allow me to tone what I've got. I used to go the route of heavier weights and lower reps, say 6 to 8, but again I'm no longer interested in getting any bigger or dealing with the joint and tendon pains.

Sorry I can't be of more direct help to your specific question. . . .
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PeterDisAbelard.
Forum Moderator
Joined : Jul 2012
Posts : 6408
Posted 12/23/2014 6:59 AM (GMT -8)
I have an incision site hernia that I plan to have fixed next month if my surgeon's scheduler can ever get him to make a firm commitment to a date. (I am also getting an AUS at the same time and the combination involves scheduling two surgeries.)

I mention this because I am currently wearing a truss and I try to never look in the mirror while wearing the truss to avoid seeing the muffin-top effect it causes.

I have struggled with maintaining muscle mass during ADT. I've never been much of a gym rat (wish I had the time) but I try to spend an hour and a half there three times a week. Over the last two and a half years I have gained weight and lost muscle mass at a distressingly constant rate. My vice at the gym is doing exactly the same routine every time I go. I've been doing it that way for ten years and I can go from machine to machine with my brain turned off. My routine:

Treadmill: 1/4 mile jog to warm up, no elevation, then 1/4 mile brisk walk at full elevation.
Abs*: Crunches 30 on my back then 30 more on each side. 60 flutter kicks. Planking, three positions 45 seconds each.
Curls: Dumbells 25lbs. 12 reps alternating biceps curls. 12 reps hammer curls. 12 reps seated isolation curls.
Chest Machine: (no spotter, never enough benches) about 75 percent of the most I can move. Two sets of 12.
Lat Pull Machine: 150 lbs (down from 170 prior to ADT). 1 set of 12 reps ordinary and 1 set of 12 semi-reclined (like rowing).
Triceps: If I can get a bench, two sets of 12 pull-overs at 45 lbs. Otherwise, machine set at 120 lbs.
Shoulder press: machine, two sets of 12, 130 lbs.
Seated Leg Curl: machine, two sets of 12, 150 lbs
Seated Leg Extension: machine, one set with all the weight (can still do it used to be easier) one set, I usually get 6 or 7 reps these days (used to do two sets of 15, easy), then another set of 12 at 160 lbs.

*I wear my truss at the gym and have not had to curtail my abs workout yet. I figure that a bit of extra muscle tone is all to the good as long as I can keep things contained. I try to avoid most of the Valsalva maneuvers that would usually go with most of the exercises.
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Gunner34
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Joined : Jan 2014
Posts : 624
Posted 2/15/2015 10:43 PM (GMT -8)
I think I heard some information on this topic that I thought I should share. My concern was that if we are on HT/ADT, our muscles are deteriorating and without testosterone, there is nothing we can do about it. As some of you have said, it seems to be possible to work very hard to maintain current muscle mass with frequent activity and proper nutrition.
My new Oncologist thought about my question and then reminded me that muscle needs to be torn or ripped in order for it to then grow. A plant can grow on its own but it can grow thicker and faster if it has plant food or some other stimulant. Structured weight and aerobic exercises can still benefit the muscles during ADT but it's just harder to grow them because there is no plant food (testosterone).
I was already thinking about the testosterone and am of course missing it as soon as I get out of bed every day. But if I work the muscles to exhaustion and then a little more, I can still have potential gains, hopefully enough to offset the wasting from the ADT. Easier said than done, but here goes. I've got the diet side on track already so off I go...
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Faustmann
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Joined : Nov 2014
Posts : 525
Posted 2/16/2015 2:30 AM (GMT -8)
I'm glad this thread got bumped. I hate to look in the mirror. After 3+ years of Lupron, I am 6', 180 pounds, heavier than I have ever been and I look flabby from the waist up. I was a runner and never was a muscle guy, but I would like to keep upper body strength and lose some of this flab. So the take-away is that proper diet and exercise can help with strength but we cannot grow new muscle?
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Gunner34
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Joined : Jan 2014
Posts : 624
Posted 2/16/2015 8:06 AM (GMT -8)
Faustmann
My oncologist said we can grow new muscle, it's just harder to do without our testosterone.
I think the take away is that we can get stronger and build muscle but we have to work harder at it than those that aren't on Lupron & Casodex. And if we don't, we may continue to gain the unsightly fat and lose the muscle that we already have.
πŸ˜‘πŸ‰πŸŽ³β›³οΈπŸš΅πŸš΄πŸ€πŸŽΎπŸƒπŸƒπŸšΆπŸ‘―
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Break60
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Joined : Jun 2013
Posts : 1870
Posted 2/16/2015 8:13 AM (GMT -8)
Gunner

My experience is that working out just makes you feel better and helps keep up strength and endurance. Not sure it builds muscle mass, but surely keeps it from further deterioration. I sure don't notice any muscle growth. But six months after my last shot, the joint pain has stopped and I'm able to play golf and work out without pain. My next psa and T test are in two weeks.
Bob
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PeterDisAbelard.
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Posts : 6408
Posted 2/16/2015 8:19 AM (GMT -8)
To see what is possible you should probably look at the fittest women at your gym, being sure to eliminate the ones with mannish faces and square jaws (steroids). They have accomplished their fittness with little more testosterone than we have. They are quite strong, unless you compare them to the fittest men, but their muscles don't generally bulge.

Walking is good exercise but I think heavy lifting is very important. Muscle and bone both grow in response to stress.
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Gunner34
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Posted 2/16/2015 8:38 AM (GMT -8)
Since I've been on Lupron I haven't seen any women at the gym.
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logoslidat
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Posts : 7585
Posted 2/16/2015 8:48 AM (GMT -8)
Cardio is the most important exercise in the quiver especially as you age it is the engine that allows you to do all the other components of exercise. I have no idea of the effects of building muscle mass on HT. I would think since HT counters the building of muscle, you would need to put more effort in that direction to maintain and increase. I am not the body building type. I go for the lean, toned muscles which are developed with lighter reps, more reps, and core exercises.Cardio and core/balance workouts are the best. Huge muscles are are fines long as you have the go ability to use them. Now as a man close to 72, I am no chiseled hard body, but am very toned, walk tall, will outlast 80% of those in my gym regardless of age due to an extraordinary heart/lung machine , honed over a 45+ year running regiment. the core and stregth tng came later in life, the core only in the last 4 -5 years. What ever you are doing, consistency is the Key. the key to consistency is getting out the door or into your workout space. If you just do that the rest will follow and yo do need rest at time. Folks don't like cardio, because they get bored, {with themselves?}, They do some strength tng because it gives them a semblance of exercise, but not what they really need. Admiittedly biased to cardio and core… It works. I challenge any one to drop all exercise for a six week period, build up cardio to at least 30mins preferably 1 hour and see hoe your energy level is at the end. I say just cardio, but at least that much cardio continuously. add strength if you can ,but not at the expense of cardio prescribed for that period. Once you have the endurance and stamina from the challenge, proceed with regular program. I have a measly 375 T level and feel fan fricken tastic. I moff to the gym , not so will not edit this so forgive,as usual,grammar syntax, lidat
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compiler
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Posts : 7698
Posted 2/16/2015 8:57 AM (GMT -8)
Interesting post, Logo.

I know most PC experts really push the weight/strength training for those of us on HT.

But, at the same time, we know that HT has a deleterious impact on our heart health. It would seem that would imply one should do cardio and that it is just as important as strength training.

I do both, but probably not enough (elliptical 2-3 times per week, about 25 minutes per session, and assorted upper body machine workouts, about 45 minutes each time).

Mel

Post Edited (compiler) : 2/16/2015 10:21:33 AM (GMT-7)

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dmlvt
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Posted 2/16/2015 9:09 AM (GMT -8)
Bodybuilders, who emphasize appearance, rather than raw strength, do lots of their weight work in the high rep, lower weight mode. Power lifters do most of their work the other way - low reps of very high weight.

So, if you were concerned about muscle mass, I'd lean towards the bodybuilder mode. I do all of my lifting with barbells, dumbbells or body weight. No machines at all. By moving real weight in a full range of motion, you recruit more of your muscles into the work.

I am in a different situation, because I supplement with testosterone, but if I was at zero testosterone, I would probably focus on just half a dozen core lifts - squats, lunges, deadlifts, bench press, strict press, and pull-ups.

There are many variations for all of those lifts, so you wouldn't need to ever get bored. I also include Olympic lifting in my routine, but I do that for reasons other than building muscle. Proper Olympic lifting form requires mobility, speed, and immaculate form to get the bar overhead. The risk of injury seems higher with the Oly lifts than with the power lifts.

I would also be sure to get plenty of quality protein in my diet. I know that I eat very differently than many people here, eating a mostly Paleo diet. I eat meat in almost every meal, and I stay away from grains and many other carbs.
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Travling_guy
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Posts : 38
Posted 2/16/2015 9:10 AM (GMT -8)
Agreed we must all continue our exercise routine. Not only important is the cardio for heart health but also the weight training to strengthen our bones for those of us with mets. I agree diet is the best way to fuel your muscles - but would recommend checking your daily protein intake. It's important for your muscles to be fed with adequate protein and if your diet is "shorting" your protein intake, add a protein shake to your exercise. Preferably within 30minutes of completing your weight training to maximize its benefit.
Just my thoughts here and what I have been doing to maintain my body as best as possible. Former athlete as well.
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Faustmann
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Posted 2/16/2015 11:11 AM (GMT -8)

Gunner34 said...
Since I've been on Lupron I haven't seen any women at the gym. smilewinkgrin  

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logoslidat
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Posts : 7585
Posted 2/16/2015 3:38 PM (GMT -8)
Complier, thanks, your regimen is good if done consistently. It would be better if your cardio increased to 45 min a session. the point of my challenge is to get your heart/lung system in gear then stay in gear and apply same to the rest of your workouts. there is not one professional trainer or athlete that does not in their heart that the heart/lung machine is the key to everything else one does at the Gym. Now there is debate on what constitutes optimum cardio training LSD,i.e long slow distance treadmills roadwork and the like. Also interval training[hi intensity cardio followed by short periods of rest} on machines or road. Continuous exercise drills incorporating intervals, etc. Ill put it this way. A n athlete knows when he is lacking the optimum heart/lung machine and he will either correct or not and win or not at his event depending on opponents regimen. A point I must make. If you are over 40 or 50, definitely over 60. Your heart lung machine is the most important thing you got going for you for QOL. I don't care if you look like Olive Oil. If you are under that age you ain't gonna listen to a word I say anyway.
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Struwwelpeter
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Posted 2/16/2015 4:22 PM (GMT -8)
Gunner34: "Since I've been on Lupron I haven't seen any women at the gym."

I can relate to that ;-)

No wait, make that :-(

Where are you at in MN? I'm in the SW corner.
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Gunner34
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Joined : Jan 2014
Posts : 624
Posted 2/16/2015 5:55 PM (GMT -8)
Struwwel - SW Mpls. Originally from SE SD so I know SW Mn. Pass through there occasionally. We share the same T4N1M1b. I'm with you on your challenge! How about 10+?😜
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Break60
Veteran Member
Joined : Jun 2013
Posts : 1870
Posted 2/18/2015 8:20 AM (GMT -8)
Gunner
Six months after last Lupron shot getting libido back but absolutely no feeling down there. It was better when I had no libido!
Bob
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