Personal Experience With Diet and Exercise (Part 2 Continued Thread)

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Tudpock18
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Date Joined Sep 2008
Total Posts : 4271
   Posted 2/25/2018 11:16 AM (GMT -6)   
This is a continuation of this thread:

/www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=35&m=3515667


Jim
Forum Moderator-Prostate Cancer. Age 62 (71 now), G 3 + 4 = 7, T1C, PSA 4.2, 2/16 cancerous, 27cc. Brachytherapy 12/9/08. 73 Iodine-125 seeds. Everything continues to function normally. PSA: 6 mo: 1.4, 1 yr: 1.0, 2 yr: .8, 3 yr: .5, 4/5 yr: .2, 6-9 yr: 1. My docs are "delighted"! My journey:
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=35&m=1305643&g=1305643#m1

cashlessclay
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2015
Total Posts : 195
   Posted 2/25/2018 2:56 PM (GMT -6)   
I'm updating the introduction for this thread.

After surgery and radiation (SRT) have failed to stop a rising PSA,
I decided to get serious about diet and exercise. Now I have 5 years
of data using the Labcorp Ultrasensitive test and careful notes on what I eat.

With a Gleason score of 6, and a PSA doubling time (PSADT) of about 7
months, post surgery AND post radiation, I am trying to control cancer
growth through diet and exericise.

My last 7 PSA readings are: 0.461, 0.448, 0.455, 0.447, 0.483, 0.458, 0.439

Without D&E intervention, my PSA would be about 23.

If PSA was being "masked" somehow, it would have to be 98% efficient . . .
using ordinary foods. I'm not using any unnatural foods, and only a Vit-D3
supplement. Masking, that efficient, would have shown up as a PSA "gap down"
when I first started the diet, since the foods I'm using are essentially the same.
No such gap occurred. If there is masking, why do "crashed" diets result in
PSADTs exactly equal to my "natural" value of 7 months. That would be highly
unlikely.


My working hypothesis is that cancer cells need "insulin" and "iron" to grow.
Receptors for such are overexpressed on cancer cells compared to normal cells.
With that in mind, this is what I'm doing:

1) Make sure supplements do not contain "sugar", "Iron" nor "Chondroitin Sulfate".

2) Minimize an insulin response. The less sugar and fast carbs, the better the results.

3) No red meat, no eggs, and no dairy.

4) Basic diet is (organic) vegan with seafood. But, no farmed raised fish.

5) I start lunch and dinner with a plate of raw vegetables, especially broccoli
and broccoli sprouts. I have it with hummus made with olive oil, and add
turmeric spice, ground black pepper, rosemary, and oregano to the hummus.

6) Use Olive oil when you need oil.

7) Brown over white for carbs, if you have to.

8) Have some soy product daily . . . soy beans, tofu or bean curd.

9) I have 2 cups of green tea every day.

10) Vitamin D-3 or sunshine and a brisk walk 30 to 45 minutes every day.


The key appears to be breakfast. When I get breakfast right, I can actually
reduce PSA. Get it wrong, and the diet doesn't work at all.

My breakfast is 4-5 oz of "cooked" steel cut oatmeal, with walnuts and 2 oz
of unsweetened almond milk . I do not put fruit on the oatmeal. This is a very
small bowl with little milk. Do not take other liquids within 30 minutes before,
or 75 minutes after the oatmeal. I walk about 3 miles right after breakfast to
improve insulin sensitivity.

I used that breakfast and the "above rules" to LOWER my PSA the last two test
periods. In the past I have totally killed a good diet by: 1) presoaking the
oatmeal; 2) adding extra "liquid" to the process; 3) adding a lot of fruit.
The entire diet became worthless, even though I kept lunch and dinner the same.
If you want to "maintain" the cancer cell population, add 2-4 raspberries. If you
wanted to kill more cancer cells, reduce the oatmeal to 3-4 oz.

The question becomes, If you could, do you really want to kill off most of the
cancer cells and risk mutations that are resistant to the diet? I think not!
This approach is called "adaptive" or "maintenance" therapy, and is getting
attention.

Cashless

Ak123
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2016
Total Posts : 281
   Posted 2/25/2018 3:19 PM (GMT -6)   
You always amaze me, cashless and I thought I was very disciplined and details oriented but I am no where near you lol. I am trying so hard to follow your diet. The problem is it takes so long, may be 2 months to test again and see if what I did is right or wrong but then again, I am trying
age 63 now, diagnosed on 10/2012 at 58 years old
RP 12/2012, Gleason 3+4, positive margins and extra capsual extention, PNI,. T2c.
Psa on 11/2016 .07
Started external beam radiation on 1/2017
Psa 7/2017 .1 (MSK lab1)
Psa 11/2017 .16 (lab2)
Psa 1/30/2018 .20 (lab2)
Psa 2/22/2018 .17 (MSK Lab1)

cashlessclay
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2015
Total Posts : 195
   Posted 2/25/2018 9:30 PM (GMT -6)   
Ak, in a recent post on "Part 1" of this thread you say:

"I am following the diet inch by inch including exercise for 40 minutes( 2 Miles )
every single morning immediately after breakfast and a fast cup of coffee."

You do not want to be taking liquids just before or soon after the oatmeal.
From my post above:

"My breakfast is 4-5 oz of "cooked" steel cut oatmeal, with walnuts and 2 oz
of unsweetened almond milk . I do not put fruit on the oatmeal. This is a very
small bowl with little milk. Do not take other liquids within 30 minutes before,
or 75 minutes after the oatmeal. I walk about 3 miles right after breakfast to
improve insulin sensitivity."

Keep a record of what you are eating in case we need to improve on your results.
Also, try to relax. I'm recently able to "roll back" some of the PSA, which could
be very helpful to many of us.

Cashless

bluebird123
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts : 478
   Posted 2/25/2018 10:31 PM (GMT -6)   
cashless,

What is the reason why you don't have any liquids 30 minutes before and 75 minutes after you eat oatmeal in the morning?

Do you drink coffee? My husband has one cup of coffee with his breakfast. I would have a very hard time convincing him to give this up.

Thank you for sharing your experience with diet on this forum. Your results are very inspiring and my husband and I are following a modified version of your diet. However, I am continually trying to improve on it.

Post Edited (bluebird123) : 2/26/2018 6:09:37 AM (GMT-7)


Ak123
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2016
Total Posts : 281
   Posted 2/26/2018 9:25 AM (GMT -6)   
Thanks cashless,
I didn’t know about the liquids. I will do so, eat breakfast, walk for 2 Miles and wait a bit and then drink the coffee.
age 63 now, diagnosed on 10/2012 at 58 years old
RP 12/2012, Gleason 3+4, positive margins and extra capsual extention, PNI,. T2c.
Psa on 11/2016 .07
Started external beam radiation on 1/2017
Psa 7/2017 .1 (MSK lab1)
Psa 11/2017 .16 (lab2)
Psa 1/30/2018 .20 (lab2)
Psa 2/22/2018 .17 (MSK Lab1)

cashlessclay
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2015
Total Posts : 195
   Posted 2/26/2018 7:43 PM (GMT -6)   
bluebird,

Yes, I do drink coffee, black with no sugar, when I return from my
three mile walk. Before the diet I had coffee with cream and two
sugars . . . just before or after breakfast.

You don't want to have liquids just before, during, nor right after
oatmeal because the complex carbs of oatmeal will break down
more quickly, and the blood glucose response will be front loaded
(higher and quicker). Insulin will respond the same way.
Cancer cells are will equipped to take advantage of these insulin spikes.

You need to put together a list of the potential side effects of likely
future treatments if you are unable to control PSA. If your husband
still wants his coffee with breakfast, well you tried your best. I lost
my father, sister and two friends to cancer and have little trouble
waiting the 75 minutes.

Cashless

bluebird123
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts : 478
   Posted 2/27/2018 12:39 AM (GMT 0)   
Thanks for the explanation cashless.

Do you follow this no liquids with meals for all of your meals or just for breakfast? If just for breakfast, is it because it is the first meal of the day or because the breakfast that you eat daily (oatmeal) is a carb?

My husband was told by the MD who gave him the diet that he follows (head of alternative medicine at MSKCC) to eat nuts as the first thing he eats in the morning - my husband has a small amount of fruit with breakfast but the doc wanted a protein to be the first thing that he ingests.

TJ123
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2018
Total Posts : 48
   Posted 2/27/2018 1:23 AM (GMT -6)   
Cashlessclay,

Thank you for your interesting information.

I'm a Type2 diabetic so I'm particularly interested in your posts.

I'm a little late to the game. Are you taking your glucose measurements (finger sticks) or getting regular insulin labs done to monitor your levels or are you simply tweaking your diet to determine which foods seem to have impacts on your PSA?

Glucose and insulin levels would seem to correlate. I'm trying to find exactly which numerical glucose or insulin levels would take a person into the danger zone of negatively impacting PSA. IOW's would a 160 glucose measurement after a meal be dangerous? I've been told by professionals in the medical field that once glucose goes over 180 it starts to do damage to the interior of the blood vessels. But I don't have a clue what glucose levels are harmful to Pca patients either trying to avoid recurrence or delay it.

You may or may not have an answer or even a guess.

Congratulations on the system you've developed. It sure seems to be working. All the best as time moves forward.
Age: 64
Dx: 2011 3+3; Age 57; AS: 2011-2015; PSA 10
Da Vinci 01/2016; 3+4; pT3a; Close Margins; No SV; pN0
PSA 03/16: .04; 06/16: <.01; 09/16: .02; 12/16: .01; 03/17: .01; 07/17:.02 10/17: .01;
01/18: .03; 02/18: <.006 (last PSA at a different lab than the others)

cashlessclay
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2015
Total Posts : 195
   Posted 2/27/2018 7:44 PM (GMT -6)   
Bluebird, good questions! Here is my rationale.

I always have oatmeal for breakfast. Oatmeal has a higher carb density
than the foods I eat the rest of the day. And, water effects the speed of
glucose entry into the blood (probably due to soluble fiber content). But,
I also think that mornings are different. You are coming off a (fasting)
low insulin level, and spikes in insulin favor cancer cells over normal cells.

I don't intentionally avoid water for the other meals, but I have very little of
it. Also, vegetables tend to have a lot of water. Broccoli is about 90% water.

Starting the morning with nuts sounds like a good idea. I have walnuts
with my steel cut oatmeal, and eat more nuts in the beginning.

Concerning fruit for breakfast, I'm down to zero. I can do a "zero" growth
diet with 3-4 raspberries. The diet is useless at about 12 (mixed) berries.

I can have berries after lunch and/or after dinner.

Cashless

cashlessclay
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2015
Total Posts : 195
   Posted 2/27/2018 9:51 PM (GMT -6)   
TJ123 asks:

"Are you taking your glucose measurements (finger sticks) or getting regular
insulin labs done to monitor your levels or are you simply tweaking your diet
to determine which foods seem to have impacts on your PSA?"

I'm not following my glucose nor insulin levels, just using ultra-sensitive PSA.
The basic diet is from my research, then I've tried "experiments" . . . like
"presoaking", more milk/less milk,, more berries/less berries etc. After a while
it became clear that the glycemic/insulin responses to the first meal was dominant.

I do have some glucose readings from my routine blood tests. Fasting values are
between 87 and 94. And, numbers between 104 and 116 occuring about 1-2 hours
after lunch. I don't have the more interesting numbers that would occur during the
30 to 45 minutes after each meal.

Insulin and cancer is a complex subject. You may find these interesting:

"Insulin receptor compensates for IGF1R inhibition and directly induces mitogenic
activity in prostate cancer cells"
www.endocrineconnections.com/content/3/1/24.full


"The Insulin Receptor: A New Target for Cancer Therapy"
/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3356071/


"Hyperglycemia, a Neglected Factor during Cancer Progression"
/www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2014/461917/

Cashless

Pratoman
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts : 6131
   Posted 2/28/2018 9:07 AM (GMT -6)   
Cashless thanks for the links, I read the abstracts, and wish I was better able to decipher the language used in these studies.
However I got the gist of it, and it surprises me that there is not more discussion between patients and doctors about staying away from sugar. I'm also surprised that drugs like metformin are not more widely used in PC.

From what I've read, in these links and elsewhere, it seems to me, if one were to decide to eliminate one thing from diet, it should be sugar. Added and probably natural in fruits as well.
Dx Age 64 Nov 2014, 4.3
BX 3 of 12 cores positive original pathologyG6, G6, G8 (3+5)
downgraded to 3+3=6 by tDr Epstein, JH
RALP with Dr Ash Tewari Jan 6, 2015
Post surgical pathology – G7 (3+4), ECE, Margins, LN, SV all negative
PSA @ 6 weeks 2/15, .<02, remained <0.02 until January 2017, .02, repeat Feb 2017, still .02. May 2017-.033, August 2017- .033 November .046
Decipher test, low risk, .37 score

Wilderness
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2015
Total Posts : 311
   Posted 2/28/2018 10:21 AM (GMT -6)   
Pratoman said...
From what I've read, in these links and elsewhere, it seems to me, if one were to decide to eliminate one thing from diet, it should be sugar. Added and probably natural in fruits as well.

Might be a baby/bathwater suggestion??
At this point I've concluded: cut out all refined sugars, corn syrup etc. for sure. No foods with added sweeteners, no fruit juices and likely no honey (sadly). Also my MD advised avoiding melons and grapes because of high sugar::fiber ratio. But I think other fruits are near essential to balanced nutrition - especially berries.

Another note - there's been some discussion of exercise here recently. A couple of decades ago my dental hygenist observed my gums are healthy because I exercise intensively. What? He cited the benefits of regularly driving up heart rate. My urologist is also on board with that - the primary advice he leaves me with on each appointment is to keep up the exercise. I cycle & put my HR in the 140-160 range for an hour or more five+ days each week.

And through all our discussions of diet & exercise, I always know I am not replacing radiation/surgery/chemo/castration. For me, my hope is to support immune system keeping cancer in check for three months at a time - to delay secondary therapy as long as possible.

There are many on this board with more advanced PC. Their courage and tenacity is awesome and I pray they understand those of us in relatively good health discussing diet and exercise respect their far more difficult trials & concerns.

Best to all -
Wilderness
8/14 DRE: notch
9/14 DX 2/12: 5% 3+4 & <5% 3+3
12/14 ORP Dr. McGovern MGH pT3a 47g 15% Gl 3+4 in rpq focally & l. extensively; "established, extensive EPE" PNI+ SM- SV-
2/16 diet upgrade
PSA 8/14 2.38; 12/14 2.90; 1/15 .01; 3/15 .02; 5/15 .01; 8/15 .02; 10/15 .01; 1/16 .03; 2/16 .06; 3/16 .04; 6/16 .03; 7/16 <.014; 11/16 .03; 1/17 .06; 3/17 .03; 6/17 .03; 8/17 <.014; 11/17 <.014; 2/18 <.014

InTheShop
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2012
Total Posts : 9377
   Posted 2/28/2018 10:26 AM (GMT -6)   
I've exercised twice this week. No measurable improvements yet...
I'll be in the shop.
Age 58, 52 at DX
PSA:
4.2 10/11, 1.9 6/12, 1.2 12/12, 1.0 5/13, .6 11/13,
.7 5/14, .5 10/14, .5 4/15, .3 10/15, .3 4/16, .4 10/16, .4 5/17, .3 10/17
G 3+4
Stage T1C
2 out of 14 cores positive
Treatment IGRT - 2/2012
My latest blog post

cashlessclay
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2015
Total Posts : 195
   Posted 2/28/2018 10:53 AM (GMT -6)   
Concerning PCa and insulin, Billybob should find these interesting.
Billy, look at figure 3 of this first ref.

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/rmb2.12039/full

Also, "New Players for Advanced Prostate Cancer and the Rationalisation
of Insulin-Sensitising Medication"

/www.hindawi.com/journals/ijcb/2013/834684/

and finally, "The Role of Insulin in Advanced Prostate Cancer".

https://eprints.qut.edu.au/50662/1/Ian_McKenzie_Thesis.pdf[url]

Cashless

Gemlin
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Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 714
   Posted 2/28/2018 5:25 PM (GMT -6)   
InTheShop said...
I've exercised twice this week. No measurable improvements yet...

There is no doubt that exercise is associated with reduced risk of prostate cancer progression.

Here is one article about exercise and PCa.
Physical activity after diagnosis and risk of prostate cancer progression: data from the Cancer of the Prostate Strategic Urologic Research Endeavor

Isn't exercise preferred to insulin-sensitizing drugs?
Quote from the above article.

Vigorous activity is associated with lower levels of insulin, bio-available insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF1), and inflammatory cytokines, leading to a milieu that may inhibit proliferation and promote apoptosis of prostate cancer cells.

TJ123
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2018
Total Posts : 48
   Posted 3/1/2018 1:43 AM (GMT -6)   
Wilderness,

I noted that your story has similarities to my own. Your RP happened about a year before mine. Similar Gleasons w/ pT3a. Your PSA is bouncing around like mine. Both of us exercise hard. I go to the gym 4-5 times a week. Vigorous Stairmaster 40 min (about 440 calories) then either a 3/4 mile swim or 35 minutes on the weights. I'm on a beta blocker so my HR maxes out at about 135. I'm watching my intake of carbs very closely, particularly since I'm a Type2 Diabetic (and have been for over 10 years). On metformin max dose (1000mg/twice a day). Keeping A1C @ 7 or below but it's a battle.

I've been in discussion with BillyBob re: glucose/insulin levels. I've ordered a book he recommended by a Dr. Jason Fung on fasting. It sounds intriguing, particularly intermittent fasting, that may certainly help keep my glucose and insulin levels within an acceptable range for my condition. If I can get my A1C down to 6 or thereabouts I'll be one happy camper. Based on recent literature I've read (and through on-line discussions) there seems to be a connection between blood sugar, insulin and Pca progression, although experts offer various opinions.

I saw that your PSA has been as high as .06 about a year ago and your most recent measurement was <.014. Remarkable. Same lab? Are you taking any supplements or simply adhering to a strict anti-Pca diet? I congratulate you on your success. I think you may very well be a testament to the importance of lifestyle choices post treatment. Stories like your own provide motivation for others.

Some supplements I take include Resveratrol, Tumeric w/pepper, Cayenne capsules, pomegranate extract Vit D3, salmon oil, Lemongrass tea (I like the taste). Do they in any way help my fight against a recurrence? I have no idea. But at the doses I ingest they do no harm and give me a feeling that I may have some control over the destiny of my disease.

Thanks for sharing and I wish you all the best.
Age: 64
Dx: 2011 3+3; Age 57; AS: 2011-2015; PSA 10
Da Vinci 01/2016; 3+4; pT3a; Close Margins; No SV; pN0: One reactive node examined. No cancer.
PSA 03/16: .04; 06/16: <.01; 09/16: .02; 12/16: .01; 03/17: .01; 07/17:.02 10/17: .01;
01/18: .03; 02/18: <.006 (last PSA at a different lab than the others)

Post Edited (TJ123) : 3/1/2018 12:56:32 AM (GMT-7)


BillyBob@388
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 3221
   Posted 3/1/2018 12:42 PM (GMT -6)   
test
PSA 10.9 ~112013
Bx on 112013 at age ~65yrs, with 5 of 12 pos with one G9(5+4), 1 PNI, T2B.
RALP with lymph nodes at Vanderbilt 021914. (nodes clear, SV+, G9 down graded to 4+5, cut wide, but 1 tiny foci right at the edge of margin ) Pros. 106.7 gms!
At 15 months, not wearing a pad most days, mostly dry
PSA <.01 on 6/14 and all until 9/15 = .01, still .01 9/16, .02 on 3/17,6/17,10/17

BillyBob@388
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 3221
   Posted 3/1/2018 12:44 PM (GMT -6)   
I have been trying to respond to Cashless' comments to me, But I keep getting some gigantic post where everything is distorted and endlessly repeated. I can copy it into a word processor no problem, but not here. So this is a 2nd test post to see if this appears normal sized.

Edit: OK, this seems to have gone through OK, now I am going to try again to respond to Cashless.

BillyBob@388
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 3221
   Posted 3/1/2018 12:57 PM (GMT -6)   
OK, try again. Had to remove the 2nd of Cashless' links at the end, that got rid of most of the crazy results, except for the inexplicable large/bold type in the last half of that last quote. This is not showing up in the text or in a word processor, only when I preview it here or post it here. Don't know why that is happening:

cashlessclay said...
Concerning PCa and insulin, Billybob should find these interesting.
Billy, look at figure 3 of this first ref.

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/rmb2.12039/full

Also, "New Players for Advanced Prostate Cancer and the Rationalisation
of Insulin-Sensitising Medication"

/www.hindawi.com/journals/ijcb/2013/834684/

and finally, "The Role of Insulin in Advanced Prostate Cancer".

https://eprints.qut.edu.au/50662/1/Ian_McKenzie_Thesis.pdf[url]

Cashless


Thanks, Cashless! All of these do indeed add a bit more info supporting my pet theory of insulin resistance and it's companion higher blood insulin levels stimulates- very significantly- the growth of cancer cells. Even including our favorite cancer on this forum, PC. Of course, my pet theory is that it is actually the main culprit- possible above all others, in cancers and a large # of the common diseases of modern civilization. That remains to be seen, but I do think there is much evidence, if not yet proof, that excess insulin is a major player.

From the 1st link:
Somebody said...
Conclusion

The improvement of insulin resistance appears to be essential for the prevention of PC growth.....As a meta-analysis has suggested, the relationship between prostate cancer (PC) and T2DM or metabolic syndrome (MetS) is still under discussion.[3-7] However, a recent study has suggested that pre-existing T2DM also is associated with a higher level of mortality in patients with PC, similarly to other cancers... .........


In the algorithm shown fig 3 from that 1st link, notice it shows this straightforward relationship(prediabetes or type 2 diabetes/ T2D could be substituted here for MetS they often go together):
1:Metabolic syndrome(MetS, look out for those spare tires/bowling ball guts as the 1st obvious sign of MetS) followed by:
2:Insulin Resistance(IR) then
3: Hyperinsulinemia(HI, more insulin production needed to over come the resistence to insulin that has developed) then
4: increased PC growth in response to all this extra insulin!

But what about advanced T2D in the other side of the algorithm? That is where the T2D has advanced so far that the pancreas is becoming worn out, the pancreatic beta cells are damaged and are starting to fall behind on insulin production, and what does that do for PC growth? It is suppressed! But, the new is still not good for this group, because what is the doctor's routine response to these skyrocketing blood sugars due to flagging insulin production which will probably suppress PC? Stop eating any sugar, cut way back on carbs, right? Not likely, it is hard to get a patient to do that. So, simply start the patient on MORE insulin by way of injections. Which bodes ill for all future health areas, including PC. Just inject whatever amount of extra insulin is needed to get a blood acceptable sugar reading, regardless of how many net carbs we consume.

Or, though some of our doctors and health advisors seem loath to emphasize this, we could attack the root cause of the MetS/pre-diabetes/T2D problem: cut sugar and anything that turns into sugar(net carbs which = carb minus fiber) once it is digested and enters our blood stream.

I have seen it advised that PC is different, no need to worry about sugar because unlike other cancers, PC eats fat rather than sugar, or at least it does not thrive on sugar like other cancers. But there seems to be a lot of increasing evidence that insulin stimulates it's growth just like all other cancers. And if you want more insulin, it has been known for decades how to get more, just eat more net carbs/sugar. That will also help you get more triglycerides, stiffer arteries/higher BP, Alzheimer's, peripheral artery disease leading to amputations, blindness, etc., ad infinitum.
Pratoman said...
However I got the gist of it, and it surprises me that there is not more discussion between patients and doctors about staying away from sugar. I'm also surprised that drugs like metformin are not more widely used in PC.

From what I've read, in these links and elsewhere, it seems to me, if one were to decide to eliminate one thing from diet, it should be sugar.


Prato, like you, I also find it surprising that our medical and dietary/health advisors don't seem to want to discuss this with us more. I do wonder why. Even with diabetics, often the emphasis seems to be more on prescribing a medication, than in emphasizing the cause of the disease which- if the patient will only do so, a big if I realize- can be readily dealt with. And if dealt with, will lead to abundant overall health benefits, more or less the opposite of the result of prescribing more meds, most especially insulin.

Oh, BTW, exercise is just one more way to deal with an excess insulin problem. Diet and exercise. As long as the diet does not consist of more net carbs. We see the result of that just by glancing at our population(obesity, diabetes, MetS) after the last 40 years of our docs pushing low fat, higher carb diets for our health. Even pushing exercise at the same time was not able to overcome the results of the dietary change.
From Cashless' 2nd link:

Somebody said...
However, the initial therapeutic response from ADT eventually progresses to castrate resistant prostate cancer (CRPC) which is currently incurable. ADT rapidly induces hyperinsulinaemia which is associated with more rapid treatment failure. We discuss current observations of cancer in the context of obesity, diabetes, and insulin-lowering medication. We provide an update on current treatments for advanced prostate cancer and discuss whether metabolic dysfunction, developed during ADT, provides a unique therapeutic window for rapid translation of insulin-sensitising medication as combination therapy with antiandrogen targeting agents for the management of advanced prostate cancer.
1. Obesity, Type 2 Diabetes and Prostate Cancer
1.1. Obesity and Cancer Risk

Worldwide rates of obesity have doubled in a generation with a global estimate of ~500 million obese adults (with an additional 1.5 billion overweight) being followed by a generation of 40 million overweight children . In both industrialised and developing countries these staggering numbers pose a soaring economic and health care burden as a result of chronic comorbidities including increased rates of cardiovascular disease, hypertension, stroke, and type 2 diabetes (T2DM) .

Obesity is also a risk factor for a growing number of cancers...........

1.2. Obesity and Cancer Progression

What is indisputable from the epidemiology is the impact of obesity on cancer behaviour. Obesity is consistently identified as a significant risk factor for more aggressive disease and an independent predictor of recurrence and cancer-specific mortality for breast [13], endometrial, ovarian [14], and bladder cancer as well as prostate cancer [9, 15]. Men with higher BMI are more likely to be diagnosed with higher-grade cancers and higher Gleason scores and suffer an increased incidence of recurrence [3, 7, 15, 16] and increased cancer-specific mortality than men with a healthy BMI [16–18]. ............

However, it is hyperinsulinaemia, as a result of insulin resistance in classical metabolic tissues, which has been identified as a highly significant risk factor to progression of prostate and other cancers [14]. In prostate cancer, elevated insulin or C-peptide levels (used as a normalised surrogate) have recently been shown to significantly correlate with high-grade prostate cancer and worse patient prognosis [16, 31–36], more significantly than BMI alone, suggesting that at least part of the effect of increased BMI on prostate cancer mortality is related to coincident hyperinsulinaemia........


(excessively sarcastic comment about our health advisers deleted! I need to censor myself more often! )

Ak123
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2016
Total Posts : 281
   Posted 3/1/2018 4:43 PM (GMT -6)   
Cashless, can you suggest please any types of other nuts that goes with our diet aside from the wallnuts, I just can’t eat it? Thank you. Someone here said that a Dr from MSK suggested to start the breakfast with nuts and I know you take wallnuts with your breakfast. I would like to try the nuts too but not sure which one that doesn’t affect the insulin.
age 63 now, diagnosed on 10/2012 at 58 years old
RP 12/2012, Gleason 3+4, positive margins and extra capsual extention, PNI,. T2c.
Started external beam radiation on 1/3/2017
Psa 12/12/2016 .07
Psa 5/16/2017 .07
Psa 7/2017 .10
Psa 2/22/2018 .17

PDL17
Veteran Member


Date Joined Oct 2011
Total Posts : 533
   Posted 3/1/2018 6:26 PM (GMT -6)   
Cashless,

Do you think a ketosis-based low carbohydrate diet would accomplish the same thing? Many would advocate that certain fruits such as blueberries and grapes have significant angiogenic properties. However, based on your results, the insulin response caused by fruit outweighs the benefit.

In other words, is the only benefit your diet is accomplishing is suppressing the insulin spike and would a simpler low-carbohydrate diet accomplish the same thing?

Still impressed with how stable your PSA is with a controlled diet.

Paul
Gleason 3+4; 5/16 positive cores; average volume 30%; PSA prior to tx 4.8
TX-IMRT + brachytherapy; IMRT Nov. 2011; Brachytherapy Feb. 2012
PSA April 2012--3.6
PSA May 2012--2.5
PSA Aug 2012--2.2
PSA Nov 2012--2.9
PSA Feb 2013--2.8
PSA May 2013--2.1
PSA Aug 2013--2.3
PSA Nov 2013--2.5
PSA May 2014--1.1
PSA Dec 2014--0.8
PSA Jun 2015--0.5
PSA Jan. 2016--0.4
PSA Aug. 2016--0.4
PSA Mar. 2017--0.3

BillyBob@388
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 3221
   Posted 3/1/2018 9:41 PM (GMT -6)   
PDL17 said...
Cashless,

Do you think a ketosis-based low carbohydrate diet would accomplish the same thing? Many would advocate that certain fruits such as blueberries and grapes have significant angiogenic properties. However, based on your results, the insulin response caused by fruit outweighs the benefit.

In other words, is the only benefit your diet is accomplishing is suppressing the insulin spike and would a simpler low-carbohydrate diet accomplish the same thing?

Still impressed with how stable your PSA is with a controlled diet.

Paul


Looks like a good thing for some of us to put to the test, as Cashless and others are putting his approach to the test right now! (of course, more of us could also join in on their test!) I feel fairly sure that anything we can do to lower out chronic insulin levels will be helpful against PC and many other health issues, but I have no idea if it might be as helpful as what these guys are doing appears to be so far.

Though I have had GREAT results in the past dealing with several health problems(weight, blood pressure, high triglycerides, blood sugar a bit too high, low HDL, gastric reflux, etc.) by way of a low carb, high fat diet for anywhere from a few weeks to 6 months, I have no way of knowing how this- or some variety of it(less protein? less saturated and more mono saturated fat? fewer eggs and less chicken?) would help or hurt my battle with PC. I.E., I have not put it to the test regarding my PSA during these last 4 years. So I don't know if it would be helpful or the opposite.

One problem is that taking that approach(ketogenic) without eggs and chicken is, for me, a much more difficult way to do it. Though I know there is conflicting information, there is plenty of material out there that sort of scared me away from- or at least caused me to cut WAY down on- both of those foods. So in recent months I have been concentrating most of my efforts on intermittent fasting. Had a nice fast until supper today in fact. It certainly made it easy to avoid my traditional holiday 10 lb addition this year, despite most days enjoying all of the holiday foods. ( for me that holiday period is Thanksgiving thru my mid January birthday grand finale with my traditional devil's food cake with brown sugar icing). For a real change, I find myself several pounds lighter than before TG, unheard of for me.

The surprising thing for me is that I have found it easier to eat nothing( not low carb, but zero carb, and zero protein, zero fat) for a limited period of time that I know will soon end with a delightful meal, or end any moment when I decide it is just too tough, than to not eat my favorite foods. Although, the toughest part of a low carb approach, for me, is just getting the ball rolling. It is that first 2 or 3 days, after that for me it gets a lot easier. And I am never hungry. But I suspect it is best to take it easy on the protein, especially animal protein. MTOR and all of that. At least that is what some folks seem to think. I wish we knew for sure about all of this stuff.

cashlessclay
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2015
Total Posts : 195
   Posted 3/1/2018 11:11 PM (GMT -6)   
AK,

From a cancer diet/overall health standpoint I had issues with all
other nuts, some minor, some more serious . . . cashews have more
carbs, almonds more iron . . . so give me a short list of nuts that you
enjoy and I'll give you feedback.

PDL,

My PSA numbers are even closer than they look.
0.461, 0.448, 0.455, 0.447, 0.483, 0.458, 0.439
The 0.483 value had 2-3X the fruit of the first 4.
The last two had 1/2 the fruit, and then zero fruit.
The numbers are totally consistent with expectations.
If I kept the fruit constant, I feel that I would have a
reasonable estimate of the test "noise". The last two
are true regression, since they are coming off the
0.483 value by 2-3X the noise estimate.

I can give you my view on a ketosis-based low carbohydrate diet.
I can not prove it. I can support it, but will not, since my years old study
although sufficient for me to drop the idea, was not sufficient to formally
make the case. I'll just say it may work for a while, but it will not be sustainable.
My main concern was with arachidonic acid, and the 5-lipoxygenase and 5-HETE
pathways. I believe they "prepare the soil" for PCa bone invasion, cause inflammation,
and interferes with cancer cell death (apoptosis); in that order. Also, the iron content
of red meat is too high. Search iron and prostate cancer. We covered that in Part I.

My diet is an anti-angiogenic diet. Berries are ok, just not for breakfast nor snacks.
I have some, not many, after dinner. As for breakfast, you are correct that the
insulin response caused by fruit outweighs the benefit.

<< In other words, is the only benefit your diet is accomplishing is suppressing the
insulin spike and would a simpler low-carbohydrate diet accomplish the same thing? >>

If you are equating "a simpler low-carbohydrate diet" with "meat" then my answer
above applies.

As for "is the only benefit your diet is accomplishing is suppressing the insulin spike . . ."
Insulin and iron appear to be the major drivers of cancer progression. Simplicity is
wonderful if it works.

Cashless

TJ123
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2018
Total Posts : 48
   Posted 3/1/2018 11:16 PM (GMT -6)   
I used to be the King of Carbs. I couldn't sit at the computer without a bowl of chips and salsa at my side. I ate lots of fruit too. Big bowl of oatmeal for breakfast? Yum. I work out - so I wasn't grossly overweight but had little love handles. Then my labs came back and my A1C was over 9 (oops!). The doc told me the next stop was insulin shots. Wake up call. I put the brakes on carbs and took my metformin religiously. At first it was terribly difficult - like a battling an addiction. But with time I brought my A1C down to about 6.5 and kept it consistently under 7. It took about a month but my carb urge declined significantly. I dropped about 12 pounds too! Now that there is convincing (to me) information that high glucose/insulin levels may encourage Pca cell growth I'm even more conscientious about what goes in my mouth. This benefits my overall health.

There's one thing that confuses me about the said connection between glucose/insulin levels and Pca. Naturally we have to have glucose and insulin in our blood to survive. Even normal glucose levels are said to be 75 to 140 mg/dl, depending on the time from the last meal. It would seem that if Pca thrived on insulin that it would be first in line to devour the substance - whether the insulin levels in the blood were low, moderate or high. So would it really make a difference if glucose levels were at 75, 120 or even 160? Wouldn't an adequate supply of the favored nutrient be available to the Pca cell regardless of the actual amount in the blood stream?

The evidence seems clear to me. Lower glucose/insulin levels seem to deter cancer growth. The manner in which this is accomplished is not so clear. But I'll leave that for the scientists to figure out.

In the meantime I'll work on keeping my glucose at optimal levels since it is a PROVEN way to help save my internal organs, enhance my QoL and thus keep me alive. If it also delays or deters Pca recurrence - well, that would be a welcomed 2fer.
Age: 64
Dx: 2011 3+3; Age 57; AS: 2011-2015; PSA 10
Da Vinci 01/2016; 3+4; pT3a; Close Margins; No SV; pN0: One reactive node examined. No cancer.
PSA 03/16: .04; 06/16: <.01; 09/16: .02; 12/16: .01; 03/17: .01; 07/17:.02 10/17: .01;
01/18: .03; 02/18: <.006 (last PSA at a different lab than the others)
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