Mindfulness and Other Mind Games

New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
90 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2  3  4 
[ << Previous Thread ]

Pratoman
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts : 5871
   Posted 8/10/2018 11:38 AM (GMT -6)   
I'm trying real hard to keep my mind off of my issues. I am trying to learn and practice Mindfulness. I have read about it on Mindful.org, and i have an app on my phone, I'm sure many here have heard of it, called Headspace. The app has multiple "packs" or series of 10-15 minute sessions of guided Mindful meditation.

I'm half way through (16 of 30 sessions) a pack titled "Managing Anxiety". I'm doing 10-15 minutes a day.
I don't feel like I'm getting it. I'm good while i am doing the session. But otherwise, i am sort of not so good, more often than not. Just a knot in my stomach and this BS is always in the back, sometimes the front, of my mind.

Just curious, anyone who practices Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction, (MSBR) have any tips/pointers?

And what else do you do if you are a naturally anxious person, to help you just move forward and enjoy life. (besides meds).
I am not a doctor, just another guy without a prostate
Dx Age 64 Nov 2014, PSA 4.3
BX 3 of 12 cores positive original pathology G6
RALP with Dr Ash Tewari Jan 6, 2015
Post surgical pathology G7 (3+4), - ECE, - Margins, -LN, -SV (+ frozen section apex converted to negative)
PSA @ 6 weeks 2/15, .<02, remained <0.02 until January 2017, .02, repeat Feb 2017, still .02. May 2017-.033, August 2017- .033 November .046, March 2018 .060. June 2018 .068
Decipher test, low risk, .37 score
My story.... tinyurl.com/qgyu3xq

Tall Allen
Elite Member


Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 10490
   Posted 8/10/2018 11:47 AM (GMT -6)   
It took 2-3 months of daily practice until it became a habit of being for me. Ironically, if you do it looking for results, you will not get there. The point is being in the moment. The present-orientedness happens, but it takes time and you can't rush it. You have had a lifetime of worrying about the future and second-guessing the past - that doesn't change overnight or even in 30 sessions. You have to permanently commit to the process rather than try it for a while to see if it works.
Allen - not an MD
•PSA=7.3, prostate volume=55cc, 8/17 cores G6 5-35% involvement
SBRT 9 yr onc. resultsSBRT 7 yr QOL results
•treated 10/2010 at age 57 at UCLA,PSA now: 0.1,no lasting urinary, rectal or sexual SEs
my PC blog

Tall Allen
Elite Member


Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 10490
   Posted 8/10/2018 12:04 PM (GMT -6)   
Pratoman said...
I'm trying real hard to keep my mind off of my issues


I wanted to add that this is the opposite of mindfulness. The idea is to be aware of your thoughts and feelings right away. You don't avoid them (they'll keep coming back if you do), instead, you experience them deeply as they pop into your mind. I'm also kind to myself and keep a sense of humor about it "oh, that again." When I've done all I can in thinking and feeling it - I just let it go on its own (knowing it will probably come back).

I would compare it to grieving for the death of someone you love. The best way is through the pain, rather than avoiding it - crying, going to the funeral, talking about him or her with others, looking at photos, etc. Somehow, feeling the pain as it happens gets one through it more quickly, whereas avoiding thinking and feeling the pain makes it last longer.
Allen - not an MD
•PSA=7.3, prostate volume=55cc, 8/17 cores G6 5-35% involvement
SBRT 9 yr onc. resultsSBRT 7 yr QOL results
•treated 10/2010 at age 57 at UCLA,PSA now: 0.1,no lasting urinary, rectal or sexual SEs
my PC blog

GoBucks
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2018
Total Posts : 113
   Posted 8/10/2018 12:26 PM (GMT -6)   
What other online resources are good, or books etc?

bubbatc
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2018
Total Posts : 42
   Posted 8/10/2018 12:46 PM (GMT -6)   
"I don't feel like I'm getting it."
Thats 100% perfectly normal, part of you thinks this is ridiculous, I feel like a moron!!

What helped me was when I was very tried, just before bed, or 1/2 awake. I'm not familiar with Mindful.org but there are plenty of free ones on the internet. I like the ocean or flute sounds, or nothing at all. Also many people dislike Wayne Dyer but this REALLY helped me "get it", just one time is enough. -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KADc4U2rng0
Then one day something happens and you miss it if you skip. Also you may find when someone argues about RCT's, you no longer care, OR, you find its time for another session.

mattamx
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2015
Total Posts : 382
   Posted 8/10/2018 12:46 PM (GMT -6)   
I only have a peripheral knowledge of mindfulness. A therapist where I work gave us a rundown of it and had us practice it a little bit. As stated by TA, it seems to require a commitment, which I probably don’t have the patience for. The stress reduction that works for me is, “It is What It is.” For me that means controlling what what I can, and not wasting energy on what I can’t. It doesn’t always work, but it’s what I focus on.
USPSTF Casualty
Part I
2015 (Age 54) PSA: 20.8
Bx: All cores high volume G7 (4+3)
RALP & Adjuvant RT
Pathology: G8 (4+4), focal areas of 5; Positive margins; 3 LNs negative
PSA nadir: 0.1
Steady PSA increase. June 2018: 22.3

Part II
2018
Starting Lupron/Zytiga soon.

Tall Allen
Elite Member


Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 10490
   Posted 8/10/2018 12:55 PM (GMT -6)   
I highly recommend group practice because of the commitment involved. Almost every city has Mindfulness classes if you google it. Jon Kabat-Zinn popularized it - if you google his name, there will be meditations you can download.
Allen - not an MD
•PSA=7.3, prostate volume=55cc, 8/17 cores G6 5-35% involvement
SBRT 9 yr onc. resultsSBRT 7 yr QOL results
•treated 10/2010 at age 57 at UCLA,PSA now: 0.1,no lasting urinary, rectal or sexual SEs
my PC blog

Chipmaker
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2016
Total Posts : 82
   Posted 8/10/2018 1:37 PM (GMT -6)   
Dartmoth collage has a lot of free guided imargery lessons on line that helped me. As TA said it it takes a good while to get into it just don't rush it go with the flow.

Pratoman
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts : 5871
   Posted 8/10/2018 1:51 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks everyone for the comments. Very helpful.

TA - your comments are very much aligned with the comments of Andy Puddicome, who is also a mindfulness guru, and who owns the Headspace app, and website. And those are comments he makes in the guided meditations themselves.

The thing is, at the end of a week of sessions or sometimes at the end of a session itself, he will give suggestions, or what i call "homework". like "today, as you go through your day, pay attention when you change postures. When you go from a sitting to standing position, take note, and move on" or today, when you are anxious, take note, decide if its thinking or feeling, and let it go"

Its the actions during the course of the day, that i have trouble with, i dont remember to do those things. But it sounds like i just need to keep doing the 15 minutes a day, and think about it less. wi

I will look for a class. I wonder how being on HT will affect my ability to absorb it all, but i am guessing there is probably a class given at MSKCC, which i will look into
I am not a doctor, just another guy without a prostate
Dx Age 64 Nov 2014, PSA 4.3
BX 3 of 12 cores positive original pathology G6
RALP with Dr Ash Tewari Jan 6, 2015
Post surgical pathology G7 (3+4), - ECE, - Margins, -LN, -SV (+ frozen section apex converted to negative)
PSA @ 6 weeks 2/15, .<02, remained <0.02 until January 2017, .02, repeat Feb 2017, still .02. May 2017-.033, August 2017- .033 November .046, March 2018 .060. June 2018 .068
Decipher test, low risk, .37 score
My story.... tinyurl.com/qgyu3xq

RobLee
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2017
Total Posts : 840
   Posted 8/10/2018 3:24 PM (GMT -6)   
bubbatc said...
"I don't feel like I'm getting it."
Thats 100% perfectly normal, part of you thinks this is ridiculous...

Pretty much how I feel about it.


Pratoman said...
I wonder how being on HT will affect my ability to absorb it all...

That too. I find myself lucky to remember where my head is. Fortunately, it is attached.

logoslidat
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 5962
   Posted 8/10/2018 3:40 PM (GMT -6)   
Mindfullness has been around for milleniums…. a silly rebirth of many ways leading back...acknowledge the past...then move on.....
gleason 9 contained stopped psa testing jan 2015 with two consecutive psa's a year apart at 0.15
surgery 10/09 only treatment...eyes wide open...no sand...gonna live til I die...not the reverse forgive my virtues as well as my sins...

InTheShop
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2012
Total Posts : 9053
   Posted 8/10/2018 4:06 PM (GMT -6)   
I use two measures for a worthy thought in my brain:
1. Is it true?
2. Is it helpful?
3. Is it funny?

when dealing with stress, stressful situations and stressful people my favorite word is, "flatulatingbutthead."

That and using a table saw to cut big pieces of wood into small pieces of wood. Consider the sound of one hand clapping - whoosh, whoooosh

sorry, not helpful,
bye.
Andrew
I'll be in the shop.
Age 58, 52 at DX
PSA:
4.2 10/11, 1.9 6/12, 1.2 12/12, 1.0 5/13, .6 11/13,
.7 5/14, .5 10/14, .5 4/15, .3 10/15, .3 4/16, .4 10/16, .4 5/17, .3 10/17 .3 4/18
G 3+4
Stage T1C
2 out of 14 cores positive
Treatment IGRT - 2/2012
My latest blog post

TJ123
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2018
Total Posts : 48
   Posted 8/10/2018 6:28 PM (GMT -6)   
I've haven't tried that mindfulness approach. As described it appears to be labor intensive. Years ago I read Maxwell Maltz best seller Psycho Cybernetics. I tried his 21 day plan. It failed. So I'm jaded.

I freaked out when my pathologist reported EPE and close margins. I was a basket case for a week or two before each post-op PSA test. Waiting 3 days for the results was pure torture. So I concocted my own psych defense program. I simply capitulated. I assumed that BCR was inevitable. It might sound crazy but rather than fight it I embraced it. Presto! 1000 pounds came off my shoulders. Today I don't stress out. My PSA remains at low detectable levels on one assay and undetectable on the other. When I do BCR will I lose it? No. I anticipate it. And I already have a predetermined treatment plan once it happens. One step at a time. Now the disease doesn't control my life anymore. I fixed my own problem.

Bob, Joe and Harry are all different. What works for one won't necessarily work for the others. 'nosce te ipsum'.

On a long enough timeline the survival rate for all of us drops to zero. Now if I can only fool myself into believing that I'll live forever.

Who said being human was easy?
Age: 64
Dx: 2011 3+3; Age 57; AS: 2011-2015; PSA 10
Da Vinci 01/2016; 3+4; pT3a; Close Margins; No SV; pN0: One reactive node examined. No cancer.
PSA 03/16: .04; 06/16: <.01; 09/16: .02; 12/16: .01; 03/17: .01; 07/17:.02 10/17: .01; 01/18: .03; 02/18: <.006 (last PSA at a different lab than the others); 6/18: .02; 6/18: <.006 (other lab).

Tall Allen
Elite Member


Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 10490
   Posted 8/10/2018 6:36 PM (GMT -6)   
Prat-

I like the homework - encouraging you to be more mindful at a trigger- changing postures. I like that it is keyed to what your body is doing (very similar to paying attention to your breathing).

As an aside - I tried other kinds of meditation. I even spent a weekend at an Ashram. But the goal of "clearing your mind," I found to be impossible, unnatural and frustrating. I also found counting (breaths) or repeating a mantra counterproductive. But focusing attention on thoughts and feelings came pretty easy to me --- I just got better at noticing them more quickly (before they caused anxiety, instead of after)
Allen - not an MD
•PSA=7.3, prostate volume=55cc, 8/17 cores G6 5-35% involvement
SBRT 9 yr onc. resultsSBRT 7 yr QOL results
•treated 10/2010 at age 57 at UCLA,PSA now: 0.1,no lasting urinary, rectal or sexual SEs
my PC blog

Dreamerboy
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2011
Total Posts : 597
   Posted 8/10/2018 9:14 PM (GMT -6)   
I've found Echart Tolle's "The Power of Now" helpful in learning to live in the present moment. Also found Stoic philosophy (deleted) teaches to accept the difficulties life sometimes delivers. Probably not many here would be too interested but "Meditations" written over 2000 years ago by Marcus Aurelius has a lot of relevance today.

Post Edited By Moderator (Pratoman) : 8/12/2018 7:52:25 AM (GMT-6)


GoodVibesOnly
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2018
Total Posts : 25
   Posted 8/10/2018 9:23 PM (GMT -6)   
I must admit, I read more about meditation than I actually practice.
It is hard to quiet a racing mind...

The body scan meditation works for me. It makes me really pay attention and feel each part of my body. If there is pain, paying attention to it and taking long deep breaths make it dissolve... for me anyway.
I found this article interesting:
https://www.mindful.org/beginners-body-scan-meditation/

Just like there is no one cancer treatment that fits everyone, I guess you have to find something that works for you.

A bit off topic, but I just read a book called Radical Remission by Kathy A. Turner, PhD. I thought it was a very interesting read that covered nine main items that most people who beat cancer did. A big takeaway for me is, out of the nine items, seven of them have to do with the mind.
Hubby Dx Age 70, Jun 2018, PSA 6.7
Bx 5 of 13 cores positive original pathology G4+5, t3
CT scan -ve; bone/joint scan -ve
RALP with Dr Ash Tewari Jul 2018, -ve surgical margins
Post surgical pathology G4+3, pT2 pN0, perineural invasion

island time
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2014
Total Posts : 1533
   Posted 8/10/2018 9:42 PM (GMT -6)   
Dreamerboy said...
I've found Echart Tolle's "The Power of Now" helpful in learning to live in the present moment. Also found Stoic philosophy (which some have termed "the Buddhism of the west") teaches to accept the difficulties life sometimes delivers. Probably not many here would be too interested but "Meditations" written over 2000 years ago by Marcus Aurelius has a lot of relevance today.


this and what logo said is what works best in my life. For some reason or another....all the classes and books and "feeling what you're feeling" doesn't help me. Never has for me. I don't know what it is. It's something to do with me trying to do it in a way that I'm thinking to myself...."Am I doing this right?"...and find myself concentrating on...."concentrating on".... doing it. The trick (ery) for me is....I think...

….and I really cannot say what it is on this site....so I will put it into quotations and you can take it from there....."Mantras" do help me. It's like "asking for" ice cream....*humbly* asking for ice cream lol what can I change? what can I not? but instead of asking for ice cream....I'm asking for wisdom to know the difference in what I can change and what I cannnot change. when I do this....it's becoming into the moment of now....into now....into "reality" of "right now" and "right now" I *can think clearly* that there is NOTHING that is threatening me....not now...not right now.

(I don't know if that'll pass muster or not) if not...just delete it.
PSA 2010 thru 2014...4.0 +/- .7
Dx 12/14 @ 56 yo...2 cores G6 <5%, 1 core G6 20%, 1 core HGPIN.
RALP 11/25/15...3+4. 3 to 5 mm surgical margin 15% involvement pT2+
PSA's....2/16-.01...4/16-.00...7/16-.00...10/16-.01...1/17-.01...4/17-.02...7/17-.02
10/17-.02...01/18-.05...03/18-.014...04/18-.02...07/18-.047

Post Edited (island time) : 8/10/2018 8:46:50 PM (GMT-6)


Saipan Paradise
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 727
   Posted 8/10/2018 10:02 PM (GMT -6)   
I haven't found any of those techniques useful. Primarily because I haven't tried any of them. Though I've certainly thought about it a lot. Just thinking about it is probably counterproductive. My son teaches yoga and his been trying to get me and Mrs Paradise into it. Hmmn. I'm actually intrigued by tai chi, it's quite beautiful. Don't see it much on Saipan, despite the growing Chinese population here. See it a lot in parks in Bangkok. And Honolulu.
I like Andrew's solution, cutting wood into little pieces. Maybe I'll get myself a table saw.
I've gotten back into piano playing recently, mainly Bach, it's incredibly restful and mind-expanding but I don't see a carryover into other aspects of my life. Work is more mind-narrowing by the day.
Age 60 at dx 7/2017 biopsy G8 (4+4), 5/13 cores
RARP 8/2017 (Patel), pT3a N0 M0, 30% tumor; EPE+, SV-
PSA 1/2016, 2.9; 4/2017, 7.2; 9/2017 (post-RARP), 0.13; 10/2017, <0.05, 1/9/2018, 0.09, 1/31/2018, 0.10, 2/9/2018, <0.05(!?), 2/23/2018, 0.08.
Eligard started 3/2/2018. SRT 72Gy, 40 fractions, finished 5/8/2018
Caution: I’m not an MD and don’t know what I’m talking about.

BillyBob@388
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 3096
   Posted 8/10/2018 10:20 PM (GMT -6)   
I guess I'm just old fashioned, more so each year. Though I had a period of my life(many years) where I was dedicated to meditation- as taught to me by the(of Beatles' fame) Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's(not related to the bear) people in the mid 70s, and in later years was into self hypnosis( took hypnosis for anesthesia continuing education classes and had some surprising success hypnotizing other people), I later left all that behind deciding (deleted - due to reference to religion)

Post Edited By Moderator (Pratoman) : 8/12/2018 7:53:43 AM (GMT-6)


Pratoman
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts : 5871
   Posted 8/10/2018 10:22 PM (GMT -6)   
Very interesting comments, fascinating how we all handle the stress that comes with this game, differently. I hope the comments continue and help others.

I’m thinking maybe I up the mindfulness sessions to twice a day, if one is trying to learn new habits, the more one practices, it stands to reason the more habitual the practice becomes. Im going to stick with what I’m doing.
I am not a doctor, just another guy without a prostate
Dx Age 64 Nov 2014, PSA 4.3
BX 3 of 12 cores positive original pathology G6
RALP with Dr Ash Tewari Jan 6, 2015
Post surgical pathology G7 (3+4), - ECE, - Margins, -LN, -SV (+ frozen section apex converted to negative)
PSA @ 6 weeks 2/15, .<02, remained <0.02 until January 2017, .02, repeat Feb 2017, still .02. May 2017-.033, August 2017- .033 November .046, March 2018 .060. June 2018 .068
Decipher test, low risk, .37 score
My story.... tinyurl.com/qgyu3xq

Saipan Paradise
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 727
   Posted 8/10/2018 10:44 PM (GMT -6)   
Pratoman said...
I’m thinking maybe I up the mindfulness sessions to twice a day, if one is trying to learn new habits, the more one practices, it stands to reason the more habitual the practice becomes. Im going to stick with what I’m doing.


Sticking with it is very sensible, Ken. In many aspects of my life, most of the time when something didn't work out it's because I didn't stick with it. Careful about doing too much, though. As we tell those newly cut and impatient to regain continence, don't overdo the kegels. Don't overkegel your brain, please.

InTheShop
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2012
Total Posts : 9053
   Posted 8/10/2018 10:52 PM (GMT -6)   
I think you should write poetry.
I'll be in the shop.
Age 58, 52 at DX
PSA:
4.2 10/11, 1.9 6/12, 1.2 12/12, 1.0 5/13, .6 11/13,
.7 5/14, .5 10/14, .5 4/15, .3 10/15, .3 4/16, .4 10/16, .4 5/17, .3 10/17 .3 4/18
G 3+4
Stage T1C
2 out of 14 cores positive
Treatment IGRT - 2/2012
My latest blog post

Skypilot56
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 700
   Posted 8/11/2018 5:32 AM (GMT -6)   
Geez, I must be doing something wrong sure don't have the time to worry about my brain, put on 3500 miles so far this week looking for a different airplane after my other one was destroyed. My wife says aren't you gonna stay home and get some sleep I told her plenty of time to sleep after I die right now I got lots of living to do! Right now I'm waiting for her to get up so we can go look at another plane in Wisconsin. Well everyone have a great weekend gotta go walk the dog! Now that's real brain therapy watching your stupid mutt run and try to catch birds and squirrels on the trail. She has 3 things that are important to her playing, pooping and eating. Now that's living!! LOL

Larry
Male 62 DX @ 60
Dad had PC
2002. Psa. .08 Enlarged Prostrate
2014. Psa. 3.8
2016. Psa. 19
3-08-17 RP Mayo, Mn
Gleason 9, pt3b, SV + 1 nerve, N-Margins 35 LN removed clear
Prostrate 45 grams
4-20-17 Incarcerated Umbilical Hernia
6-13-17 psa 0.13
7-19-17 psa 0.12 3TMRI with coil - clear
10-11-17 psa 0.16
10-12-17 Lupron
12-13-17 psa <0.10
12-18-17 SRT
2-7-18 SRT done 72gy
4-25-18 psa <0.10

Subdenis
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 527
   Posted 8/11/2018 5:33 AM (GMT -6)   
Pratoman, my experience with meditation and mindfulness didn't take effect until I realized thoughts will happen and I get let them flow through and return to my mindful focus, e.g., breathing.

My son-in-law who is my physical fitness coach and who is the strength and condition coach for the Navy Seals is encouraging me to experience sensory deprivation in a flotation tank. I have not pulled the trigger but probably will soon.

https://www.menshealth.com/health/a19547127/sensory-deprivation-tanks-flotation-therapy/
65YO healthy man, PSA 5/17 4.6, MPMRI, 5/17 lesion. 13 core biopsy 3 positive 3+3 and 1 positive in a lesion, All cores less than 30% 8/17 - the second opinion Yale pathology shows a small amount of (3+4) in one core, < 5%, decipher test shows intermediate risks. HDR BT completed 2/6/18. 5/3/18 3 month Post HDR BT PSA 1.3
Denis

Saipan Paradise
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 727
   Posted 8/11/2018 5:51 AM (GMT -6)   
This thread gets better by the minute. Denis, take me with you! I desperately want sensory deprivation!!

Larry, dogs are definitely GFYPH. We added a rescue puppy to our household — two other dogs, one 9 years, one 3 — in late May, indescribable happiness. Ma sam tua — Thai for “three dogs” — that’s my ideal. We lost one to old age last summer, I’m so happy to be back up to three! Hate to say it, but playing pooping and eating are my priorities, too.
Age 60 at dx 7/2017 biopsy G8 (4+4), 5/13 cores
RARP 8/2017 (Patel), pT3a N0 M0, 30% tumor; EPE+, SV-
PSA 1/2016, 2.9; 4/2017, 7.2; 9/2017 (post-RARP), 0.13; 10/2017, <0.05, 1/9/2018, 0.09, 1/31/2018, 0.10, 2/9/2018, <0.05(!?), 2/23/2018, 0.08.
Eligard started 3/2/2018. SRT 72Gy, 40 fractions, finished 5/8/2018
Caution: I’m not an MD and don’t know what I’m talking about.
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
90 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2  3  4 
Forum Information
Currently it is Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:01 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 2,993,944 posts in 328,090 threads.
View Active Threads


Who's Online
This forum has 161253 registered members. Please welcome our newest member, yabagi.
226 Guest(s), 7 Registered Member(s) are currently online.  Details
07kr5, Noah2112, Chutz, quincy, three 5's and a jack, duck66, (Seashell)