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OT -- KETO??

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alephnull
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Joined : Dec 2013
Posts : 2014
Posted Yesterday 10:13 AM (GMT -7)

Just an observation, nothing else. I'm not claiming this works for anyone or that there are studies to prove it.
But about a week and a half ago, I started a KETO diet.

My joint aches have ALL disappeared.
It's been suggested that carbs are an inflammatory, well I'm a believer.

I'm also getting up less often, once a night now, used to be at least 2 or 3 times.
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InTheShop
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Joined : Jan 2012
Posts : 11468
Posted Yesterday 10:42 AM (GMT -7)
I've been doing a keto diet for a number of months. Joint pain is gone, I've lost 25 pounds, I feel more alert, sleep better and have not needed Viagra in a while.

carbs, especially sugars add to the body's overall inflammatory load. The studies are starting to come out to support that a reduction in carb intake is good and that the consumption of fats isn't harmful as has been reported in the past.

Andrew
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mattam
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Posted Yesterday 11:00 AM (GMT -7)
What are common foods one would be eating, and not be eating, on a Keto diet? How challenging has it been to maintain the diet? Do you occasionally cheat? And if you do cheat, can you feel it? I wonder if a compromise Keto would still give some of the apparent benefits?
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alephnull
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Posted Yesterday 11:40 AM (GMT -7)
It's only been a little over a week.
But it's high fat(65-70%), moderate protein(25-30%), just a little carbs 5%.
No fruit except avocados,
Leafy greens, and cruciferous veggies eat all you want.
Careful on nuts

NO GRAINS, or as little as possible, refer to no more than 5% carbs of total daily intake.

Honestly that high of a fat intake is hard to do, I'm probably more like 50%, 45%, 5%
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InTheShop
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Joined : Jan 2012
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Posted Yesterday 11:47 AM (GMT -7)
In keto you eat non-starchy veggies, proteins, good fats (butter, animal, coconut), almonds, avocados. You avoid carbs - sugars, grains, starchy veggies like white potatoes. There are a lot of great cookbooks out there. At first, getting over the sugar craving is hard for some. I find it a very easy diet to follow. I don't go 100% ketosis all the time, but my carb intake is very low (no sugars: sodas, candy, etc and no breads (wheat) or rice).

Yes, when I cheat, my body lets me know and sometimes I do allow myself a treat - at the grandkids birthday party I did have a small slice of cake. Just removing sugar (especially refined sugar) from your diet would have a large health benefit. The standard American diet (SAD) contains far more sugar than a human needs. Just a move towards a keto plan has benefits.

The other big benefit of this was cooking more of my own food rather than relying on processed industrial food with all it's weird additives.

Andrew
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BillyBob@388
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Posted Yesterday 12:58 PM (GMT -7)
One of the main things is: It's all about the insulin, baby! Keto/Plaeo/Atkins/Sugar Busters(from way back) are all variations on the same theme. Now, those variables between diets might be important. But still, one of the main things that makes all of them beneficial is less carb means less sugar. Less sugar means less insulin produced by the body, or needed to be injected by an insulin dependent type 2 diabetic(T2D). See fairly new separate thread on latest findings on insulin levels vs heart disease, strokes and amputations. It certainly appears that excess insulin is a root cause ( at least one of the root causes at a minimum) in a whole host of diseases.

So use any diet that cuts carbs, and guess what else you are going to greatly lower? You guessed it: insulin! It is automatic! And soon after that, you are also going to greatly improve the 2 defining characteristics of T2D: high blood insulin levels AND insulin resistance. When your bodies insulin levels are chronically high, the body tries to defend itself against that condition by becoming resistant to that insulin. That is why a T2 diabetic, who already has a boatload of insulin in his blood, ends up having to inject even more insulin in order to lower his blood sugar: he is very resistant to insulin. But you know another way to lower blood sugar? Don't eat it, or the things that readily become sugar after digestion!

Then what happens? Your blood insulin quickly drops a bit. Then after a day or two, and you have used up all of the body's stored sugar, the internal allegorical switch is thrown, and your body starts burning fat for energy, continuously. And then what happens to the body's production of insulin? You guessed it again: rather than just decreasing, it drops down to almost nothing,. Then what happens to insulin resistance? Yep, much improved, as the body is not producing much insulin, thus the body has no more need to resist it. So what little insulin you are producing now works more efficiently at lowering those blood sugars. A virtuous cycle.

I could not wait to have my wife read the OP and 2nd post. She has fought me on this for years, despite observing much success from me and our children. As an RN, she has been a tough nut to crack when it comes to not believing conventional medical advice about how we should eat. But the weight has just wanted to increase, despite endless attempts at cutting calories. Last time she tried Paleo, or another time trying some low carb version, she quits with in a day saying "I just can't do that, I will just have to watch my calories". But I've noticed, last couple of days, without input from me, she has really been greatly cutting carbs. And she appears to be tolerating it a bit better. But she suffers badly from osteo arthritis, as well as other inflammatory aches and pains. So I wanted her to read what someone other than me had to say about those aches and pains. I'm hoping that will encourage her even more to keep at it.

I know without any question it will help her keep the weight off. But if it also helped with joint pain, that would be a rather spectacular bonus. So I wanted her to see a couple of unsolicited testimonies regarding that, even though every one is different. So thanks, Alephnull, for starting this thread! And thanks Andrew for posting your results re: joint pain also.
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BillyBob@388
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Posted Yesterday 1:08 PM (GMT -7)
PS: If trying to get into ketosis( i.e. burning body fat for energy) don't forget to add a little salt, and maybe some other minerals. Much of the very rapid weight loss seen when first getting into ketosis is due to a flushing of excess retained body fluid, as well as some burning of fat. All of that fluid going out will naturally take a bunch of sodium/salt with it. That is why docs want their patients with high BP to reduce salt, it is associated with retained fluid which raises BP. During the initial adjustment to all of this, some people feel bad, getting what has been called the Keto flu. Some added salt(during the first few days) should greatly reduce that feeling, if it is a problem.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 3/7/2019 1:56:01 PM (GMT-7)

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InTheShop
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Joined : Jan 2012
Posts : 11468
Posted Yesterday 4:34 PM (GMT -7)
My wife found a great book to get started on getting rid of sugar, "The 21 Day Sugar Detox" by Diane Sanfilippo.

We followed it. It's not strictly keto, but does go a long way towards helping you get past sugar and lowering your insulin levels. Insulin, and sugar seem to have a direct link inflammation. Since I've been on this my blood sugar levels are lower, blood pressure down and next week I'll get my lipids tested and we'll see where that is.

I will mention that I didn't increase the amount of meat I eat and I've only moderately increased my fat intake. Mostly we eat a lot of veggies.

Andrew
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Grinnell86
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Joined : Feb 2010
Posts : 279
Posted Yesterday 5:02 PM (GMT -7)
I just cut out all whites. Rice, potatoes, white bread, pasta, and tortillas. I am an avid beer drinker, so I did not cut that out. I lost 40 lbs in 6 months. Now at 166 lbs and holding for over a year.
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GoBucks
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Joined : Jan 2018
Posts : 1029
Posted Yesterday 6:00 PM (GMT -7)
So really NO fruits? I love fresh strawberries, blueberries, apples, bananas, etc especially when they are local grown in the summer. I have to do without all of them? How about ice cream? Just kidding. (not kidding)
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InTheShop
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Joined : Jan 2012
Posts : 11468
Posted Yesterday 7:57 PM (GMT -7)
On a pure keto diet, yes, no fruits as they have too much sugar. However, it's one of the things I allow myself to cheat with. I don't have a lot of fruit, not daily, but a once or twice a week treat. My wife makes this great breakfast drink with a banana, almond butter, protein powder and coconut oil - filling and yummy. Only have it once or twice a week when we need a fast breakfast.

and once a month I have a bacon cheeseburger with my brothers.

yes, I'm a sinner ...
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BillyBob@388
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Posted Yesterday 8:32 PM (GMT -7)

GoBucks said...
So really NO fruits? I love fresh strawberries, blueberries, apples, bananas, etc especially when they are local grown in the summer. I have to do without all of them? How about ice cream? Just kidding. (not kidding)

It's all a matter of how strictly one wants to approach this. More strict is faster result for weight loss and probably other important ways like lowering insulin. But strict is not really needed for good long term results.

Something like Atkins(very strict and very fast results, which are encouraging) for weight loss might call for 20 grams of NET carb per day for a couple of weeks, then slowly raising the carbs until weight loss stops, then reducing a bit more again so that weight loss continues. For one example.

Strawberries have a total of 8 gm of carb per 100 gm (between 3 and 4 oz)of berries. The fiber is 2 gms, for a NET of 6 gms carb per 3.6 oz of berries. Or, one cup(152 gms) has net carb of 9 gms. So you can see that even on the strictest Atkins(20 gms NET carb/day), you can have some strawberries every day. But not a lot, and you may have to give up something else. There are some other relatively low net carb fruits. Most vegetables, OTOH, you can probably eat about all you can stand the thought of. (But not all veggies, some are fairly high carb) It will take about 1 lb of broccoli to exceed the daily limit of net 20 gms. And of course, after the first 2 weeks you start raising the allowed carbs. Some folks, to get things going fast(seeing quick results is rewarding and encourages us to continue) might start with almost zero carbs for at least a few days. If taking that approach, then no fruit. And of course, intermittent fasting = zero carbs(or fat or protein, the latter of which can be converted to sugar and raise insulin somewhat). So zero everything for however long you fast. That is a very rapid way into ketosis.
https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/usda/broccoli?portionid=49469&portionamount=1.000

https://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/2064/2

However, you can do a lot of good just by limiting net carb to less than 100 gms per day. Consider: for decades the authorities have advised that we eat a low fat, high carb diet. 65% of calories from carb was not an unusal recommendation. If you were consuming average 2500 calories per day, 65% of that would be 1625 calories from carb. At 4 calories per gm of carb, this would require 406 NET(even more total carb) gms of carb per day. It is obvious that even cutting to 100 gms per day is a drastic reduction. And as that would give you only 100 gms * 4 calories/gm = 400 calories, and unless you are in at least a low level of ketosis most energy comes from carbs, it is plain that that is not enough calories(from carb) to function on. So sooner or later you will probably still end up in ketosis(keto doet). But results will not be as fast and as encouraging. Then again, even a whopping 50 gms of carb would be only 200 calories from carb(that is a lot of strawberries), and you are still going to have to burn some fat, sooner or later, to function. And using body fat for energy = ketones.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 3/7/2019 8:56:49 PM (GMT-7)

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Pratoman
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Posted Yesterday 8:42 PM (GMT -7)
I followed a diet of zero grains. No pasta, rice, wheat, etc, even quinoa and Fargo were out. And no sugars. And very low fat. I limited net carbs (carbs minus fiber) to 50 grams per day, and all my carbs came from vegetables.
This was about 5 years ago.

I dropped about 45 pounds, got off meds, dropped my Triglycerides from 250, to 85!.
It’s hard though, you have to be really motivated. I strayed eventually. I was too strict and as a result it was unsustainable as a lifestyle (vs a diet).

But it does work, and is healthy on many levels.
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BillyBob@388
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Posted Yesterday 8:52 PM (GMT -7)

Pratoman said...
I followed a diet of zero grains. No pasta, rice, wheat, etc, even quinoa and Fargo were out. And no sugars. And very low fat. I limited net carbs (carbs minus fiber) to 50 grams per day, and all my carbs came from vegetables.
This was about 5 years ago.

I dropped about 45 pounds, got off meds, dropped my Triglycerides from 250, to 85!.
It’s hard though, you have to be really motivated. I strayed eventually. I was too strict and as a result it was unsustainable as a lifestyle (vs a diet).

But it does work, and is healthy on many levels.

I'm sure you know, low fat and/ or low calorie can be a tough way to also eat low carb long term. Fat is what satisfies and tastes good, and as long as the carbs are low, that gets almost all of the benefits, maybe all of them. If carbs are held below 50 gms per day for a few weeks, triglycerides will be slaughtered, even if eating adequate calories at 75% fat. It slaughtered mine, and some other folks I know, all eating plenty of fat and enough calories to never be hungry. I'm not saying I never missed some of my favorite desserts, but the cravings went way down, and I was never hungry.
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F8
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Joined : Feb 2010
Posts : 5242
Posted Yesterday 10:57 PM (GMT -7)
"But strict is not really needed for good long term results"

yeah its a recipe for failure -- why many diets fail. get the weight off. improve your health and then modify your diet to maintain your condition. a good diet is sustainable. a great diet becomes a way of life. one way I can tell that my head is no longer in the game is I quit weighing myself.
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halbert
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Joined : Dec 2014
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Posted Today 4:52 AM (GMT -7)
I've thought about trying Keto, but for now I'm really just trying to pay attention to my carbs. I have reduced my carbs somewhat--and I do feel better. I don't really need to lose weight--I'm 5/10 and 175, so maybe a little but not that much.

What I did notice--just this morning--I treated myself last night to some sugary stuff--and I had a miserable night of GERD. Definitely a connection. So, don't go THERE again. I go in this morning for a blood draw (4 yr post RALP). They are doing a standard metabolic panel as well, I'll be interested to see what my fasting glucose is. It's been hovering in the 90-100 range for a while--which is a warning shot.

I have some challenges going Keto--I have some other dietary issues that might keep me from getting there, particularly on the fat issues. I can't eat most pork products that are commercially available. It seems as if the high antibiotic loading that most commercial hog farms use makes products that affect my gut just as if I was on an antibiotic (no fun at all).

A rough survey I did a month or so ago suggested my net carb loading was above 150 grams a day--maybe as high as 200. My first target is 100 grams. Then....can I make it down to 50?
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Pratoman
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Posted Today 7:21 AM (GMT -7)
A really good book to read on the harms of grains, is Wheat Belly, by Dr William Davis. He’s a former interventional cardiologist and the book was a Best Seller. He’s written other books since, but they are broader in scope, this one is a great primer and an eye opener.

Billybob, Andrew, when you talk about high fat being ok, are you referring to monounsaturated fats or are you also including saturated and polyunsaturated fats? Just curious. I know lot of “experts” are now claiming saturated fats are fine. But I’ve also read a lot about their unhealthy effect on Triglycerides.
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BillyBob@388
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Posted Today 9:22 AM (GMT -7)

Pratoman said...
A really good book to read on the harms of grains, is Wheat Belly, by Dr William Davis. He’s a former interventional cardiologist and the book was a Best Seller. He’s written other books since, but they are broader in scope, this one is a great primer and an eye opener.

Billybob, Andrew, when you talk about high fat being ok, are you referring to monounsaturated fats or are you also including saturated and polyunsaturated fats? Just curious. I know lot of “experts” are now claiming saturated fats are fine. But I’ve also read a lot about their unhealthy effect on Triglycerides.

Prato, don't ask me to prove it right now with the studies, and this is something the children and I have debated with my wife about for years. I have been unable to completely dissuade her from the conventional medical wisdom that we were all bombarded with for decades. Whenever one of us goes full out keto, we are usually doing that with plenty of saturated fat, as well as lots of other fats. This worries her a lot. But she is slowly coming around, I think.

But yes, I mean plenty of saturated fat, as well as mono fat, NOT so much polyunsaturated fat(again, the stuff that our medics recommended to us for 50 years, to replace the "evil" saturated, probably better off reducing that) .

Every study I have seen that has compared Atkins type(no limitations at all on saturated) to any other diet with lower fat and especially saturated has invariably shown a dramatic reduction of TGLs compared to the other diet. I have linked to some of these studies here in the past. It is virtually guaranteed. Of course, the main thing that does that is the reduction in carbs, but if these carbs were replaced with fat of any kind, it mattered not in regard to about anything that was measured.

Often, LDL will rise slightly, though I know you are aware of the opinions regarding a low carb diet changing the type of LDL to a far less harmful, even a healthy type. But even if this did not happen, the small increase in LDL is invariably wiped out by a rise in the "good" HDL and the wipe out of the TGLs. So net response strongly to the good. I have not seen a study yet where fat, saturated or otherwise, changed any of that.

Personal experience from a study of 3: My friend, my daughter, and myself. All 3 have, at one time or another, done Atkins for 6 months or so, eating all the saturated fat that would be expected in meat and pork and with plenty of butter. We didn't gorge on meat, but just whatever we wanted to eat to satisfy hunger, except much carb. I think realistically we all ended up eating less overall because we were rarely hungry once in ketosis. But still, we just ate whatever we wanted, except for carbs.

All 3 checked labs after about 6 months of this, to compare with our previous labs. In all cases, all labs values were significantly improved except for the above mentioned slight increase in LDL. Also, total cholesterol increased somewhat, but this was more than accounted for by a large rise in HDL, which we were happy to see. But in all cases, the most dramatic change was a large drop in Triglycerides. Well, maybe the most dramatic change was non blood test related: drops in blood pressure and waistline. Do these folks you have read who say that saturated fat is bad for TGLs have any studies on that? If so, I'd like to see them.

Also, Halbert wrote: "What I did notice--just this morning--I treated myself last night to some sugary stuff--and I had a miserable night of GERD. Definitely a connection. So, don't go THERE again.". For sure! In my study of 3, all 3 had various problems with GERD or just general heartburn. My friend used to carry a roll of antacids in his shirt pocket at work in surgery and took them several times a day, then more at night. I had problems at night, some bad GERD. In all cases, all of this was wiped out within a short time of severely cutting carbs. Of course, we could have just gone to the doc and gotten a prescription for proton pump inhibitors I guess, and maybe some BP pills and statins, but this worked better than any of that could have IMO. My BP came down, in a few months, from 140/90 and steadily rising, to 103/60. It was not that low when I was in nursing school at age 20. And it has never gotten up to worrisome levels since. We don't pay much attention to BP here, but t is hugely important.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 3/8/2019 10:02:25 AM (GMT-7)

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BillyBob@388
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Posted Today 9:53 AM (GMT -7)
Prato,
Here is one study real quick. This study was mainly looking at pros and cons for diabetics, but they measured lots of labs, over 3 months. Not as dramatic as most I have seen and personal experience, but the low carb group was still getting 58 gms a day! And the other group also significantly cut carbs! So not the best comparison there. But the "low carb" still cut carbs and increased sat fat more than the other group(which actually decreased fat), so still makes the point.

Scroll down to the bottom of table 2 and look at the change in saturated fat: low carb group increased sat fat from 12.8 gms to 21 gms/day. Low fat, low calorie group decreased sat fat from 12.9 to 10,7.

Then scroll down to table 3 and notice the TGLs decreased from 123.6 to 101.3(18%) in the high fat/ lower carb group, but only dropped from 172.2 to 168.3 ( 2.3% ) in the higher carb(but they still lowered carb) and lower sat fat group. Interestingly, even LDL decresed just as much in the high fat group as the low fat group(over twice as much saturated fat in the high fat group, and a big increase vs a decrease in sat fat).

My favorite? Fasting insulin increased about 10% in the low calorie, lower fat, somewhat carb reduced group. It decreased 24% in the high fat, lower carb(but not even really low like 20 gms or zero gms with fasting) who did not even try to control calories. Clearly, increasing saturated fat and ignoring calories did no measured harm in this study compared to those who reduced saturated fat. The results would have been more dramatic if carbs had been reduced more in the low carb group and not reduced at all in the other group. There are other studies but this is the first one I found.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc3981696/

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 3/8/2019 9:57:14 AM (GMT-7)

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InTheShop
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Posted Today 9:59 AM (GMT -7)
I eat lot of fat types: butter, avocado, meat fat (um bacon), olive oil, and almonds. I avoid canola oil and products like potato chips as who know what they put in there. The research I've read suggests that eating fat does not translate into extra fat storage. My LDL level is about the same, my HDL went up a little and my TGL has fallen. Also cholesterol is more complex than just LDH/HDL and some current thinking is starting to doubt the usefulness of measuring it this way.

The intake of carbs, especially sugars, contributes much more to the TGL levels as extra carbs are converted in the body to stored fat which is partly measured by TGL. A good book that describes the biochemistry behind all this is: "The World Turned Upside Down: The Second Low-Carbohydrate Revolution" by Dr. Richard David Feinman

My other research and references are list on my blog post about Keto that I wrote last year. Here's the link so you could see where I got my info from: https://andrewsviewoftheweek.com/2018/06/03/ketogenesis-or-how-to-burn-fat-without-fire
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Pratoman
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Posted 3/9/2019 7:48 AM (GMT -7)
Andrew, thanks so much.
I’ve read a lot on the subject, and will look at your references as well. The reason I asked about saturated fats is because even with all the reading I’ve done, I have a hard time wrapping my brain around saturated fat not being a problem. Also, with coronary artery disease and 2 stents, I have less margin for error.
On the cholesterol issue, I agree that it’s not always important.
I NEVER had a cholesterol issue, the highest it’s been has been 160. Right now, on a minimal statin dose, it’s 106. But TGL always a problem. When I got it down from 350 to 85, with no meds, it was with a no grain, minimal saturated fat diet;
I need to do that again, as TGL is back to 289 (down from 392 a few months ago 😢.) Unfortunately I am going on a 12 day cruise Monday.

Thanks for the information, very helpful.
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Pratoman
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Posted 3/9/2019 7:57 AM (GMT -7)
Billybob, thanks, as always good stuff. I will look at the link later.
2 things
1. I’ve not read anything specific about sat fat being bad, it’s just been ingrained in me , like most folks, over the years. I’ve read plenty about sat fat not being a problem tho, just have a hard time buying in. But I guess the proof is in the numbers
2. A small rise in ldl wouldn’t be a problem for me, my LDL has consistently been 25-29 over the last few years.
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BillyBob@388
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Posted 3/9/2019 9:23 AM (GMT -7)

Pratoman said...
.......................Andrew, thanks so much.........On the cholesterol issue, I agree that it’s not always important.
I NEVER had a cholesterol issue, the highest it’s been has been 160. Right now, on a minimal statin dose, it’s 106. But TGL always a problem. ......................I need to do that again, as TGL is back to 289 (down from 392 a few months ago 😢.) Unfortunately I am going on a 12 day cruise Monday.........................................
......................................................................................................................................................

Billybob, thanks, as always good stuff. I will look at the link later.
2 things
1. I’ve not read anything specific about sat fat being bad, it’s just been ingrained in me , like most folks, over the years. I’ve read plenty about sat fat not being a problem tho, just have a hard time buying in. But I guess the proof is in the numbers
2. A small rise in ldl wouldn’t be a problem for me, my LDL has consistently been 25-29 over the last few years.

I think you are right, the proof is in the numbers. And what huge proof in your very own numbers, right? Your total cholesterol has never been over 106, is that right? Mine runs 190-220. Back in 2000, after 6 months of Atkins style eating(1st Sugar Busters, then The Zone for a few months, and finally straight out Atkins for the last month or 2) my lab was(I'm using this old one because I have a copy handy on my computer and it followed the 6 months of low carb with plenty of sat fat: butter, Rib Eye steaks, etc): Total C: 191(maybe up a few points),
LDL 128(up a few points), HDL 51(way up from the high 20s or low 30s)

and TGL 59(down from something over 200, can't remember the exact #, but it was flagged as over the top limit of 200 on previous test). BP down from 140/90 to 103/60. No medications could match the over all improvements in these results.

Recent tests, when I have usually not been eating low carb/high fat(have not had any test in a several years) Total 221, LDL 165, and HDL 39. TGL 84. All somewhat worse from my previous visit, and way worse than 2000, including TGL working there way back up. (but still better than from back when I watched my fat intake and was over 200). So, since these were all up, my doc told me that any other doc would already have me on statins, and he wanted me to have a Calcium score to further quantify my risk. So I did, and my score was ZERO. So, he stopped pushing me towards statins.

Point is: how valuable do you think those cholesterol numbers actually are as far as our cardiac risk? How could I have such lousy numbers, and yet they were not able to measure even a hint of actual blockage? Your numbers have always(except for TGL) been much better, even GREAT, and yet? And as for your TGLs, how much have expensive drugs with possible serious SEs helped compared to simply cutting carbs? How much has some docs advice to lower sat fat helped with those TGLs?

I know what you mean about it being ingrained into us that sat fat is evil. It is the same with my wife, it is just hard for her to not see sat fat as a problem. We have almost been brainwashed in regards to that for 50 years or more. They have taught us that sat fat makes us fat, raises our cholesterol and gives us heart disease. I get a lot of otherwise useful nutrition info from Greger at NutritionFacts.org , and that guy is an absolute fanatic against sat fat and cholesterol. He even thinks sat fat causes T2 diabetes! But again, the proof is in the numbers. And I don't think these 2 facts are much debatable:
1:if carbs are also lowered, an increase in sat. fat(or not) will result in a drop in TGLs.
2: If sat fat is increased, HDL increases, probably with or without lowered carbs. Ever notice over the years how many people are able to lower their total and LDL cholesterol with low fat diets and statins complain that they can not raise there HDL from low levels, or it even goes down along with the LDL?

Any one bucking the conventional wisdom and eating original Atkins style(no limits on sat. fat, only limits on carbs) for a few months is almost guaranteed to see a spike up in HDL(far more than any increase in LDL) combined with a dramatic drop in TGLs. It happens over and over with people I know, and in studies. Though I think it is the lowered carbs doing the TGL magic, I don't know if the saturated fat is helpful, harmful, or neutral in that regard. I think it is probably very helpful in regards to HDL, but I don't really have a study showing increased saturated fat raising HDL that was not also combined with lower carbs.

Enjoy your cruise! That should be an orgy of carbohydrates! Always tends to be for me! Have fun! (BTW, if sat. fat is just to scary for you, you can just eat tons of olive oil, though it might not be the best thing for cooking. Main thing is though, low sat fat or high, lots of olive oil or not(don't increase corn or soy oil etc) lower those carbs to kick TGLs butt) I know that you know this already.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 3/9/2019 9:39:44 AM (GMT-7)

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BillyBob@388
Veteran Member
Joined : Mar 2014
Posts : 4634
Posted 3/9/2019 9:51 AM (GMT -7)
Prato, one more of many for your reading pleasure as you enjoy your cruise and maybe even an orgy of carbohydrates! ;) LOL! Why do our doctors and dieticians and government persist in the low fat/ even lower saturated fat fantasies, automatically replaced with higher carbs? Because to do the opposite might require fewer statins? Probably not, but then why? Reminds me of when they brain washed us to lower all fats and replace sat. fat with trans-fat(margarine). Can you imagine the health result of that for multiple millions?
"The cardiometabolic consequences of replacing saturated fats with carbohydrates or Ω-6 polyunsaturated fats: Do the dietary guidelines have it wrong?.................................
History of the low-fat ‘diet-heart’ hypothesis

The vilification of saturated fat by Keys2 began two decades before the seven countries study, where Keys showed a curvilinear association between fat calories as a percentage of total calories and death from degenerative heart disease from six countries. However, he excluded data from 16 countries that did not fit his hypothesis. Indeed, data were available at the time from 22 countries, and when all countries were looked at the association was greatly diminished.3 Furthermore, no association existed between dietary fat and mortality from all causes of death............................................
These data are further strengthened by a randomised, controlled, dietary intervention trial comparing a low-fat (<10% saturated fat) versus a low-carbohydrate (12% of total calories from carbohydrates) diet.10 ,11 While both diets were low in calories (1500 kcal/day), the low-carbohydrate diet showed greater improvements on numerous endpoints such as (1) body fatness (abdominal fat, body mass), (2) lipids (triglycerides, apolipoprotein B (ApoB)), (3) glucose tolerance (glucose, insulin and insulin resistance—measured via homoeostasis model assessment), (4) inflammation (tumour necrosis factor α, interleukin (IL) 6, IL-8, monocyte chemotactic protein 1, E-selectin, intercellular adhesion molecule 1) and (5) thrombogenic markers (plasminogen activator inhibitor 1).10 ,11

Additionally, the low-carbohydrate diet provided (1) an increase in high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C), (2) a reduction in the ApoB/ApoA-1 ratio and (3) a reduction in small, dense low-density lipoprotein (sdLDL), whereas all of these parameters were worsened on a low-fat diet.10 ,11 Thus, overall cardiometabolic health seems to improve to a greater extent when carbohydrate is restricted rather than fat........................The assumption that a low-fat diet reduces the ‘bad’ cholesterol (ie, LDL) is an imprecise notion. While total LDL may be lowered with a reduced intake of dietary fat, if replaced with carbohydrate, this may increase sdLDL particles (ie, pattern B),10 ,11 which are more atherogenic than large buoyant LDL particles (ie, pattern A).12 Additionally, data indicate that a high saturated fat intake lowers sdLDL particles and raises large buoyant LDL particles.13 Thus, replacing carbohydrate with fat may improve the LDL particle size distribution (eg, pattern B shifted to pattern A). Lastly, if fat is replaced with carbohydrate, this may worsen the overall lipid profile (decrease in HDL-C, increase in triglycerides and increase in sdLDL particles).10 ,11

Several other randomised trials indicate that a low-carbohydrate diet reduces weight and improves lipids more than a low-fat diet.14–18 Thus, reducing carbohydrates, as opposed to fat, seems to have more favourable effects on atherogenic dyslipidaemia, inflammation, thrombogenic and atherosclerotic surrogate markers.10–18 From these data, it is easy to comprehend that the global epidemic of atherosclerosis, heart disease, diabetes, obesity and the metabolic syndrome is being driven by a diet high in carbohydrate/sugar as opposed to fat, a revelation that we are just starting to accept..........................................."
https://openheart.bmj.com/content/1/1/e000032

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 3/9/2019 9:54:52 AM (GMT-7)

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InTheShop
Elite Member
Joined : Jan 2012
Posts : 11468
Posted 3/9/2019 9:52 AM (GMT -7)
Remember that there are no calories in the food on a cruise ship.

but be careful - the calories have been known to chase passengers when the return to shore.

Andrew
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