OT -- KETO??

Just an observation, nothing else. I'm not claiming this works for anyone or that there are studies to prove it.
But about a week and a half ago, I started a KETO diet.

My joint aches have ALL disappeared.
It's been suggested that carbs are an inflammatory, well I'm a believer.

I'm also getting up less often, once a night now, used to be at least 2 or 3 times.

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My Biopsy
My PSA Curve
Previous PSA
Curve
Treatment Path
My Story

What are common foods one would be eating, and not be eating, on a Keto diet? How challenging has it been to maintain the diet? Do you occasionally cheat? And if you do cheat, can you feel it? I wonder if a compromise Keto would still give some of the apparent benefits?

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Part I
2015 (Age 54) PSA: 20.8
Bx: All cores high volume G7 (4+3)
RALP & Adjuvant RT
Pathology: G8 (4+4), focal areas of 5; Positive margins; 3 LNs negative
PSA nadir: 0.1
Steady PSA increase. June 2018: 22.3

Part II
2019
March: Lupron/Xtandi

In keto you eat non-starchy veggies, proteins, good fats (butter, animal, coconut), almonds, avocados. You avoid carbs - sugars, grains, starchy veggies like white potatoes. There are a lot of great cookbooks out there. At first, getting over the sugar craving is hard for some. I find it a very easy diet to follow. I don't go 100% ketosis all the time, but my carb intake is very low (no sugars: sodas, candy, etc and no breads (wheat) or rice).

Yes, when I cheat, my body lets me know and sometimes I do allow myself a treat - at the grandkids birthday party I did have a small slice of cake. Just removing sugar (especially refined sugar) from your diet would have a large health benefit. The standard American diet (SAD) contains far more sugar than a human needs. Just a move towards a keto plan has benefits.

The other big benefit of this was cooking more of my own food rather than relying on processed industrial food with all it's weird additives.

Andrew

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I'll be in the shop.
Age 59, 52 at DX
PSA:
4.2 10/11, 1.9 6/12, 1.2 12/12, 1.0 5/13, .6 11/13,
.7 5/14, .5 10/14, .5 4/15, .3 10/15, .3 4/16, .4 10/16, .4 5/17, .3 10/17 .3 4/18, .4 11/18
G 3+4
Stage T1C
2 out of 14 cores positive
Treatment IGRT - 2/2012

PS: If trying to get into ketosis( i.e. burning body fat for energy) don't forget to add a little salt, and maybe some other minerals. Much of the very rapid weight loss seen when first getting into ketosis is due to a flushing of excess retained body fluid, as well as some burning of fat. All of that fluid going out will naturally take a bunch of sodium/salt with it. That is why docs want their patients with high BP to reduce salt, it is associated with retained fluid which raises BP. During the initial adjustment to all of this, some people feel bad, getting what has been called the Keto flu. Some added salt(during the first few days) should greatly reduce that feeling, if it is a problem.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 3/7/2019 1:56:01 PM (GMT-7)

I just cut out all whites. Rice, potatoes, white bread, pasta, and tortillas. I am an avid beer drinker, so I did not cut that out. I lost 40 lbs in 6 months. Now at 166 lbs and holding for over a year.

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Age 53
PSA 10/09=4.60, Biopsy 12/09
Left side benign, Rt side 3of 4 pos, 70%
Gleason 3+4
DaVinci 2/16/10,
Gleason 4+3
Pos marg
T2C PNX PMX
PSA 5/10 <.05, 8/10 .12, 9/10 .12, 12/10 .16, 1/11 .15,
02/11 .17, 03//11 .19
SRT 4/11
PSA 7/11 .16, 10/11 .14, 2/12 =.081, 6/12=.034, 12/12=.013, 6/13=.015. 1/14=.017, 7/14=.029, 1/15=.032, 1/16=.044, 7/16=.049, 1/17=.045, 7/17=.063, 11/17=.051

On a pure keto diet, yes, no fruits as they have too much sugar. However, it's one of the things I allow myself to cheat with. I don't have a lot of fruit, not daily, but a once or twice a week treat. My wife makes this great breakfast drink with a banana, almond butter, protein powder and coconut oil - filling and yummy. Only have it once or twice a week when we need a fast breakfast.

and once a month I have a bacon cheeseburger with my brothers.

yes, I'm a sinner ...

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I'll be in the shop.
Age 59, 52 at DX
PSA:
4.2 10/11, 1.9 6/12, 1.2 12/12, 1.0 5/13, .6 11/13,
.7 5/14, .5 10/14, .5 4/15, .3 10/15, .3 4/16, .4 10/16, .4 5/17, .3 10/17 .3 4/18, .4 11/18
G 3+4
Stage T1C
2 out of 14 cores positive
Treatment IGRT - 2/2012

I followed a diet of zero grains. No pasta, rice, wheat, etc, even quinoa and Fargo were out. And no sugars. And very low fat. I limited net carbs (carbs minus fiber) to 50 grams per day, and all my carbs came from vegetables.
This was about 5 years ago.

I dropped about 45 pounds, got off meds, dropped my Triglycerides from 250, to 85!.
It’s hard though, you have to be really motivated. I strayed eventually. I was too strict and as a result it was unsustainable as a lifestyle (vs a diet).

But it does work, and is healthy on many levels.

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I am not a doctor, just another guy without a prostate
Dx Age 64 Nov 2014, PSA 4.3
BX 3 of 12 cores positive original pathology G6
RALP with Dr Ash Tewari Jan 6, 2015
Post surgical pathology G7 (3+4), - ECE, - Margins, -LN, -SV (+ frozen section apex converted to negative)
PSA @ 6 weeks 2/15, .<02, remained <0.02 until January 2017, .02, repeat Feb 2017, still .02. May 2017-.033, August 2017- .033 November .046, March 2018 .060. June 2018 .068, July 2018 - .082, August 2018, .078, August 2018 - .08 Start ADT. Sept 2018 Start SRT
Sept 2018 thru November 2018 – T = 4, PSA = <.05
Decipher test, low risk, .37 score
My story.... tinyurl.com/qgyu3xq

"But strict is not really needed for good long term results"

yeah its a recipe for failure -- why many diets fail. get the weight off. improve your health and then modify your diet to maintain your condition. a good diet is sustainable. a great diet becomes a way of life. one way I can tell that my head is no longer in the game is I quit weighing myself.

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age - 63
12/09 - PSA 6.8
G7 - 3+4 - all 12 cores pos
HT, BT, IGRT
6/18 - 8-year post treatment PSA .1!
PSAs .2, .3, .2, .3, .2, .1, .2, .2, .1, .1, .1, .1, .1

/instagram.com/edraderphotography/

A really good book to read on the harms of grains, is Wheat Belly, by Dr William Davis. He’s a former interventional cardiologist and the book was a Best Seller. He’s written other books since, but they are broader in scope, this one is a great primer and an eye opener.

Billybob, Andrew, when you talk about high fat being ok, are you referring to monounsaturated fats or are you also including saturated and polyunsaturated fats? Just curious. I know lot of “experts” are now claiming saturated fats are fine. But I’ve also read a lot about their unhealthy effect on Triglycerides.

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I am not a doctor, just another guy without a prostate
Dx Age 64 Nov 2014, PSA 4.3
BX 3 of 12 cores positive original pathology G6
RALP with Dr Ash Tewari Jan 6, 2015
Post surgical pathology G7 (3+4), - ECE, - Margins, -LN, -SV (+ frozen section apex converted to negative)
PSA @ 6 weeks 2/15, .<02, remained <0.02 until January 2017, .02, repeat Feb 2017, still .02. May 2017-.033, August 2017- .033 November .046, March 2018 .060. June 2018 .068, July 2018 - .082, August 2018, .078, August 2018 - .08 Start ADT. Sept 2018 Start SRT
Sept 2018 thru November 2018 – T = 4, PSA = <.05
Decipher test, low risk, .37 score
My story.... tinyurl.com/qgyu3xq

Prato,
Here is one study real quick. This study was mainly looking at pros and cons for diabetics, but they measured lots of labs, over 3 months. Not as dramatic as most I have seen and personal experience, but the low carb group was still getting 58 gms a day! And the other group also significantly cut carbs! So not the best comparison there. But the "low carb" still cut carbs and increased sat fat more than the other group(which actually decreased fat), so still makes the point.

Scroll down to the bottom of table 2 and look at the change in saturated fat: low carb group increased sat fat from 12.8 gms to 21 gms/day. Low fat, low calorie group decreased sat fat from 12.9 to 10,7.

Then scroll down to table 3 and notice the TGLs decreased from 123.6 to 101.3(18%) in the high fat/ lower carb group, but only dropped from 172.2 to 168.3 ( 2.3% ) in the higher carb(but they still lowered carb) and lower sat fat group. Interestingly, even LDL decresed just as much in the high fat group as the low fat group(over twice as much saturated fat in the high fat group, and a big increase vs a decrease in sat fat).

My favorite? Fasting insulin increased about 10% in the low calorie, lower fat, somewhat carb reduced group. It decreased 24% in the high fat, lower carb(but not even really low like 20 gms or zero gms with fasting) who did not even try to control calories. Clearly, increasing saturated fat and ignoring calories did no measured harm in this study compared to those who reduced saturated fat. The results would have been more dramatic if carbs had been reduced more in the low carb group and not reduced at all in the other group. There are other studies but this is the first one I found.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc3981696/

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 3/8/2019 9:57:14 AM (GMT-7)

Andrew, thanks so much.
I’ve read a lot on the subject, and will look at your references as well. The reason I asked about saturated fats is because even with all the reading I’ve done, I have a hard time wrapping my brain around saturated fat not being a problem. Also, with coronary artery disease and 2 stents, I have less margin for error.
On the cholesterol issue, I agree that it’s not always important.
I NEVER had a cholesterol issue, the highest it’s been has been 160. Right now, on a minimal statin dose, it’s 106. But TGL always a problem. When I got it down from 350 to 85, with no meds, it was with a no grain, minimal saturated fat diet;
I need to do that again, as TGL is back to 289 (down from 392 a few months ago 😢.) Unfortunately I am going on a 12 day cruise Monday.

Thanks for the information, very helpful.

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I am not a doctor, just another guy without a prostate
Dx Age 64 Nov 2014, PSA 4.3
BX 3 of 12 cores positive original pathology G6
RALP with Dr Ash Tewari Jan 6, 2015
Post surgical pathology G7 (3+4), - ECE, - Margins, -LN, -SV (+ frozen section apex converted to negative)
PSA @ 6 weeks 2/15, .<02, remained <0.02 until January 2017, .02, repeat Feb 2017, still .02. May 2017-.033, August 2017- .033 November .046, March 2018 .060. June 2018 .068, July 2018 - .082, August 2018, .078, August 2018 - .08 Start ADT. Sept 2018 Start SRT
Sept 2018 thru November 2018 – T = 4, PSA = <.05
Decipher test, low risk, .37 score
My story.... tinyurl.com/qgyu3xq

Pratoman said...
.......................Andrew, thanks so much.........On the cholesterol issue, I agree that it’s not always important.
I NEVER had a cholesterol issue, the highest it’s been has been 160. Right now, on a minimal statin dose, it’s 106. But TGL always a problem. ......................I need to do that again, as TGL is back to 289 (down from 392 a few months ago 😢.) Unfortunately I am going on a 12 day cruise Monday.........................................
......................................................................................................................................................

Billybob, thanks, as always good stuff. I will look at the link later.
2 things
1. I’ve not read anything specific about sat fat being bad, it’s just been ingrained in me , like most folks, over the years. I’ve read plenty about sat fat not being a problem tho, just have a hard time buying in. But I guess the proof is in the numbers
2. A small rise in ldl wouldn’t be a problem for me, my LDL has consistently been 25-29 over the last few years.

I think you are right, the proof is in the numbers. And what huge proof in your very own numbers, right? Your total cholesterol has never been over 106, is that right? Mine runs 190-220. Back in 2000, after 6 months of Atkins style eating(1st Sugar Busters, then The Zone for a few months, and finally straight out Atkins for the last month or 2) my lab was(I'm using this old one because I have a copy handy on my computer and it followed the 6 months of low carb with plenty of sat fat: butter, Rib Eye steaks, etc): Total C: 191(maybe up a few points),
LDL 128(up a few points), HDL 51(way up from the high 20s or low 30s)

and TGL 59(down from something over 200, can't remember the exact #, but it was flagged as over the top limit of 200 on previous test). BP down from 140/90 to 103/60. No medications could match the over all improvements in these results.

Recent tests, when I have usually not been eating low carb/high fat(have not had any test in a several years) Total 221, LDL 165, and HDL 39. TGL 84. All somewhat worse from my previous visit, and way worse than 2000, including TGL working there way back up. (but still better than from back when I watched my fat intake and was over 200). So, since these were all up, my doc told me that any other doc would already have me on statins, and he wanted me to have a Calcium score to further quantify my risk. So I did, and my score was ZERO. So, he stopped pushing me towards statins.

Point is: how valuable do you think those cholesterol numbers actually are as far as our cardiac risk? How could I have such lousy numbers, and yet they were not able to measure even a hint of actual blockage? Your numbers have always(except for TGL) been much better, even GREAT, and yet? And as for your TGLs, how much have expensive drugs with possible serious SEs helped compared to simply cutting carbs? How much has some docs advice to lower sat fat helped with those TGLs?

I know what you mean about it being ingrained into us that sat fat is evil. It is the same with my wife, it is just hard for her to not see sat fat as a problem. We have almost been brainwashed in regards to that for 50 years or more. They have taught us that sat fat makes us fat, raises our cholesterol and gives us heart disease. I get a lot of otherwise useful nutrition info from Greger at NutritionFacts.org , and that guy is an absolute fanatic against sat fat and cholesterol. He even thinks sat fat causes T2 diabetes! But again, the proof is in the numbers. And I don't think these 2 facts are much debatable:
1:if carbs are also lowered, an increase in sat. fat(or not) will result in a drop in TGLs.
2: If sat fat is increased, HDL increases, probably with or without lowered carbs. Ever notice over the years how many people are able to lower their total and LDL cholesterol with low fat diets and statins complain that they can not raise there HDL from low levels, or it even goes down along with the LDL?

Any one bucking the conventional wisdom and eating original Atkins style(no limits on sat. fat, only limits on carbs) for a few months is almost guaranteed to see a spike up in HDL(far more than any increase in LDL) combined with a dramatic drop in TGLs. It happens over and over with people I know, and in studies. Though I think it is the lowered carbs doing the TGL magic, I don't know if the saturated fat is helpful, harmful, or neutral in that regard. I think it is probably very helpful in regards to HDL, but I don't really have a study showing increased saturated fat raising HDL that was not also combined with lower carbs.

Enjoy your cruise! That should be an orgy of carbohydrates! Always tends to be for me! Have fun! (BTW, if sat. fat is just to scary for you, you can just eat tons of olive oil, though it might not be the best thing for cooking. Main thing is though, low sat fat or high, lots of olive oil or not(don't increase corn or soy oil etc) lower those carbs to kick TGLs butt) I know that you know this already.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 3/9/2019 9:39:44 AM (GMT-7)

Remember that there are no calories in the food on a cruise ship.

but be careful - the calories have been known to chase passengers when the return to shore.

Andrew

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I'll be in the shop.
Age 59, 52 at DX
PSA:
4.2 10/11, 1.9 6/12, 1.2 12/12, 1.0 5/13, .6 11/13,
.7 5/14, .5 10/14, .5 4/15, .3 10/15, .3 4/16, .4 10/16, .4 5/17, .3 10/17 .3 4/18, .4 11/18
G 3+4
Stage T1C
2 out of 14 cores positive
Treatment IGRT - 2/2012