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Eat fatty steak, greasy burgers & processed cold cuts???

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garyi
Veteran Member
Joined : Jun 2017
Posts : 2089
Posted 10/2/2019 9:49 AM (GMT -7)
Eat less red meat, scientists said. Now some believe that was bad advice. Sounds like lots of PCa studies and advise ;-)

The evidence is too weak to justify telling individuals to eat less beef and pork, according to new research. The findings “erode public trust,” critics said.

Read in The New York Times: [url]https://apple.news/AYEEOfBgYQ8eBEwX4YrONqw[url]
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bbqdude
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Joined : Sep 2018
Posts : 146
Posted 10/2/2019 9:53 AM (GMT -7)
I saw something about this on the news yesterday afternoon while working out. Something about 4 servings a week of red meat is not as bad as they stated before. Reminds me of orange juice causing cancer if you drank the equivalent of 100 gallons a day, bacon causes cancer- whoops no it doesn't.... The list goes on and on.
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InTheShop
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Joined : Jan 2012
Posts : 11468
Posted 10/2/2019 9:53 AM (GMT -7)
clickable version: https://apple.news/ayeeofbgyq8ebewx4yronqw

Most diet studies are flawed and over state the dangers of meat and fat. This is just another study throwing doubt on earlier studies.
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BillyBob@388
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Posted 10/2/2019 11:20 AM (GMT -7)
As red meat/processed meat and saturated fat are closely associated, I guess this also lets saturated fat off the hook? Boy this is going to cause angst over at Dr. Gregor's web site for vegans, where he even blames diabetes on sat fat, holding carbs blameless. That is, if this study is even mentioned over there. Fingers crossed for this thread remaining open here, for a lovely, peaceful, respectful discussion! ;)
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halbert
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Posted 10/2/2019 11:31 AM (GMT -7)
Scientific American published last month an article about a small but very good study that looked at highly processed vs minimally processed foods--where they got volunteers to actually live in a controlled environment for a month, with 2 weeks on each diet. The finding was that very highly processed 'manufactured' foods (think protein bars, etc), while they might have an equivalent nutritional value as far as calories, fat, protein,carbs, etc. are not as good for you as more standard foods.

When I get home I'll see if I can find the link and post it.
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Buddy Blank
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Posted 10/2/2019 11:42 AM (GMT -7)
Meat is now a superfood.
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mattam
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Posted 10/2/2019 5:28 PM (GMT -7)
“Eat fatty steak, greasy burgers & processed cold cuts???”

Sure, I guess, if that’s what you like. Doesn’t appeal to me.
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alephnull
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Joined : Dec 2013
Posts : 2011
Posted 10/3/2019 6:50 AM (GMT -7)
Do paleo or go home. lol

There's a youtube doctor who pushes the high protein and fat diet and he says basically that processed foods are fine. Just stay away from most veggie oils.
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InTheShop
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Joined : Jan 2012
Posts : 11468
Posted 10/3/2019 7:05 AM (GMT -7)
sugar is evil, stay away from sugar ...
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InTheShop
Elite Member
Joined : Jan 2012
Posts : 11468
Posted 10/3/2019 7:11 AM (GMT -7)
250 lbs here on Earth is 94.5 lbs on Mercury. No, I'm not fat. I'm just not on the right planet.
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garyi
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Posted 10/3/2019 8:44 AM (GMT -7)

InTheShop said...
250 lbs here on Earth is 94.5 lbs on Mercury. No, I'm not fat. I'm just not on the right planet.

You'll be as light as a gossamer feather in heaven ;-)
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alephnull
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Posted 10/3/2019 9:02 AM (GMT -7)
I'd still rather look like 250 lbs of lead instead of 250 lbs of feathers.
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garyi
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Posted 10/3/2019 1:00 PM (GMT -7)

alephnull said...
I'd still rather look like 250 lbs of lead instead of 250 lbs of feathers.

Poof....

Your wish has be granted smile
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MK1965
Regular Member
Joined : Jun 2016
Posts : 183
Posted 10/4/2019 6:27 AM (GMT -7)
My family I lead and lived healthy life stile for almost 53 years. All food was home made from scratch using best ingredients possible and care was taken to enjoy very balanced diet with strict avoidance of bad and unhealthy fats and meats like red meet etc. Alcohol was never touched unless is offered to visitors.
And, I had prostate Ca at age of 51 with no family history.
A year plus ago, I decided to turn my diet upside down. I started enjoying steaks, fajitas, pork meat etc. I love my steak charred a bit at fatty side in combination with chilled glass of red wine ( merlot or Malbec).
And guess what: no change in my cholesterol levels, BP stayed stable and same, I did not gain weight.
I can’t even imagine how much of life I missed.
Now, my motto is: Eat and enjoy, life is too short.
( This is not recommendation for others, it’s rather one person experience)

MK
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BillyBob@388
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Posted 10/4/2019 12:13 PM (GMT -7)

MK1965 said...
My family I lead and lived healthy life stile for almost 53 years. All food was home made from scratch using best ingredients possible and care was taken to enjoy very balanced diet with strict avoidance of bad and unhealthy fats and meats like red meet etc. Alcohol was never touched unless is offered to visitors.
And, I had prostate Ca at age of 51 with no family history.
A year plus ago, I decided to turn my diet upside down. I started enjoying steaks, fajitas, pork meat etc. I love my steak charred a bit at fatty side in combination with chilled glass of red wine ( merlot or Malbec).
And guess what: no change in my cholesterol levels, BP stayed stable and same, I did not gain weight.
I can’t even imagine how much of life I missed.
Now, my motto is: Eat and enjoy, life is too short.
( This is not recommendation for others, it’s rather one person experience)

MK


............................................................................................................................................................................................
It is however a recommendation for me, or at least I have the same approach, more or less.

So many of us used to eat margarine as we tried to stay away from the so called evils of saturated fat, trying to follow advice we thought was good. As well as trying to keep the fat low in other ways, which usually meant keeping the carbs higher. That was the advice for decades, starting I suppose when Ancel Keys got the ear of the US government in the 50s, decades during which diabetes increased by a factor of 8. That was the advice from our government and medical authorities, and I followed it as best I could for a long time.

I never saw any apologies about the margarine/trans fat screw up, they just quietly stopped recommending that. (How long was that the advice? Years? Decades?) How long has it been since you guys have seen any recommendations for partially hydrogenated vegetable oil(AKA trans fats) colored to look like butter? And, judging by the OP and some other studies, and what some of my diabetic friends are telling me about their treatment at one clinic, maybe they are slowly coming around about some of their other advice.

It is a long battle, and there are so few scientific studies to really determine if some one's theories on eating are correct, even though they so often sound logical. Obviously eating saturated fat is, among other problems, going to clog up your arteries, right? ( WARNING: long quotes from article on Ancel Keys follows)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ancel_keys#criticism

Somebody said...

Ancel Benjamin Keys (January 26, 1904 – November 20, 2004) was an American physiologist who studied the influence of diet on health. In particular, he hypothesized that dietary saturated fat causes cardiovascular heart disease and should be avoided. Modern dietary recommendations by health organizations, systematic reviews, and national health agencies............

Keys studied starvation in men and published The Biology of Human Starvation (1950), which remains the only source of its kind. He examined the epidemiology of cardiovascular disease (CVD) and was responsible for two famous diets: K-rations, formulated as balanced meals for combat soldiers in World War II, and the Mediterranean diet, which he popularized with his wife Margaret. Science, diet, and health were central themes in his professional and private lives. ......................................................................His interest in diet and cardiovascular disease (CVD) was prompted, in part, by seemingly counter-intuitive data: American business executives, presumably among the best-fed persons, had high rates of heart disease, while in post-war Europe CVD rates had decreased sharply in the wake of reduced food supplies. Keys postulated a correlation between cholesterol levels and CVD and initiated a study of Minnesota businessmen (the first prospective study of CVD).[35] At a 1955 expert meeting at the World Health Organization in Geneva, Keys presented his diet-lipid-heart disease hypothesis with "his usual confidence and bluntness".[36][37] Naples was the first case study that seemed to support his hypothesis.[38]

After observing in southern Italy the highest concentration of centenarians in the world, Keys hypothesized that a Mediterranean-style diet low in animal fat protected against heart disease and that a diet high in animal fats led to heart disease. The results of what later became known as the Seven Countries Study appeared to show that serum cholesterol was strongly related to coronary heart disease mortality both at the population and at the individual level.[39][40] As a result, in 1956 representatives of the American Heart Association appeared on television to inform people that a diet which included large amounts of butter, lard, eggs, and beef would lead to coronary heart disease. This resulted in the American government recommending that people adopt a low-fat diet in order to prevent heart disease.

Keys had concluded that saturated fats as found in milk and meat have adverse effects, while unsaturated fats found in vegetable oils had beneficial effects. ( My addition: here came frying in vegy oil(trans fats produced) and margarine replacing butter) This message was obscured for a 20-year period starting around 1985, when all dietary fats were considered unhealthy. This was driven largely by the hypothesis that all dietary fats cause obesity and cancer.[41][citation needed] A 2015 systematic review and meta-analysis by the Cochrane Collaboration, an organisation which promotes evidence-based medicine, found that reducing saturated fat intake reduced the risk of cardiovascular disease, concluding: "Lifestyle advice to all those at risk of cardiovascular disease and to lower risk population groups should continue to include permanent reduction of dietary saturated fat and partial replacement by unsaturated fats."
Keys equation

The Keys equation predicts the effect of saturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids in the diet on serum cholesterol levels. Keys found that saturated fats increase total and LDL cholesterol twice as much as polyunsaturated fats lower them.[42]

Change in serum cholesterol concentration

(mmol/l) = 0.031(2Dsf − Dpuf) + 1.5√Dch

where Dsf is the change in percentage of dietary energy from saturated fats, Dpuf is the change in percentage of dietary energy from polyunsaturated fats, and Dch is the change in intake of dietary cholesterol.[43]

The sugar controversy

In 1972, Pure, White and Deadly was published, written by John Yudkin for a lay readership. Its intention was to summarize the evidence that the over-consumption of sugar was leading to a greatly increased incidence of coronary thrombosis, and that in addition it was certainly involved in dental caries, probably involved in obesity, diabetes and liver disease, and possibly involved in gout, dyspepsia and some cancers.

Yudkin ended the first Chapter: "I hope that when you have read this book I shall have convinced you that sugar is really dangerous." This message was extremely unwelcome to the sugar industry and manufacturers of processed foods. The final Chapter of Pure, White and Deadly lists several examples of attempts to interfere with the funding of his research and to prevent its publication. It also refers to the rancorous language and personal smears used by Ancel Keys to dismiss the evidence that sugar was the true culprit.

Keys wrote, for example:

It is clear that Yudkin has no theoretical basis or experimental evidence to support his claim for a major influence of dietary sucrose in the etiology of CHD; his claim that men who have CHD are excessive sugar eaters is nowhere confirmed but is disproved by many studies superior in methodology and/or magnitude to his own; and his "evidence" from population statistics and time trends will not bear up under the most elementary critical examination. But the propaganda keeps on reverberating ... [44] Unfortunately, Yudkin's views appeal to some commercial interests with the result that this discredited propaganda is periodically rebroadcast to the general public of many countries.[45]

The efforts to discredit the case against sugar were largely successful, and by the time of Yudkin's death in 1995 his warnings were, for the most part, no longer being taken seriously.[citation needed]

Yudkin's arguments and evidence for the dangers of sugar were the focus of several articles in the British Medical Journal of 19 January 2013.[46]

In 2009, Robert Lustig, a pediatric endocrinologist of the University of California, San Francisco, Medical School who has a special interest in childhood obesity, made a video called Sugar: The Bitter Truth.[47] Lustig had independently re-discovered and confirmed Yudkin's findings and, taking aim at Keys[citation needed], asked his audience, "Am I debunking?"................
Criticism

Some doctors and nutritionists have been critical of Keys' implications.[60] His famous seven countries study, which led to the medical opinion regarding the dangers of cholesterol, fat and substances containing the same, has been criticized as ignoring the cases of Denmark, France and Norway (countries where the diet is rich in fat, but occurrence of heart disease is low) and Chile (where diet is low in fat, yet occurrence of heart disease is high).[61][62] ............

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Buddy Blank
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Posted 10/4/2019 12:52 PM (GMT -7)
Margarine = superfood
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halbert
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Joined : Dec 2014
Posts : 5104
Posted 10/4/2019 1:53 PM (GMT -7)
I'm another interesting case study (N=1)

I am missing one or more digestive enzymes that make it impossible for me to digest bovine butterfat. I'm also allergic to penicillin and many of it's related antibiotic relatives. Both of those details led to two dietary facts of life for me: Most common dairy products are not part of my diet. Never have, never will be. I can digest low-fat or no-fat dairy products, so I do those in small quantities--such as a single cup of chobani low sugar/2% fat yogurt). I do occasionally eat real ice cream--I enjoy it, but it does create nasty gut problems within a few hours.

From the antibiotic side, I found in recent years that I cannot digest commercially available pork. IMO, the antibiotic stew that is fed to hogs on the massive hog farms gets into the meat and causes problems for me.

So, my lifetime diet has been low in dairy, no butter, no whole milk, no cheese. Finding sources of dietary calcium has been an issue. I rarely eat pork. PC runs in my family for generations back, as does high cholesterol. I've never particularly worried about fat of any kind. Red meat is, and always has been a regular thing for me. I like fish--but not salmon. Other seafoods are high on my list.

With all that, my BP has been 115-120/70 for my entire adult life. I'm scheduled soon for a whole metabolic blood series, so we'll see if my last few months of trying to keep my carb load at +/- 100 grams net daily has had an effect beyond loosing some weight.
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BillyBob@388
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Posts : 4633
Posted 10/4/2019 2:14 PM (GMT -7)
Halbert, yours is an interesting case! As dairy is pointed to by some as a contributor for PC. You have gone a life time with little to no dairy, but it did not help you stay out of the PC brotherhood. Your upcoming lab results will also be interesting!
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Zzarth
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Joined : Jul 2016
Posts : 221
Posted 10/5/2019 2:17 AM (GMT -7)

InTheShop said...
250 lbs here on Earth is 94.5 lbs on Mercury. No, I'm not fat. I'm just not on the right planet.

OMG - LOL, hillarious smile
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Steve n Dallas
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Joined : Mar 2008
Posts : 4971
Posted 10/5/2019 3:06 AM (GMT -7)
My kitty kat is 16 to 17 years old.... She sleep in my lap or the same room as me while I smoked cigarettes like a chimney for all but the last two years..... She's a little overweight and sheds like a dog but is otherwise healthy. So maybe second hand smoke isn't bad for us??

AND - she is an Indoor/Outdoor kitty... According to many experts - she should have been killed by the elements a long time ago.

Maybe we should study cats.
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lapilot
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Posts : 916
Posted 10/5/2019 5:48 AM (GMT -7)
When I was diagnosed with prostate cancer, my oncology urologist said that based on evidence based medicine diet was a major risk factor. Well, I immediately told him that I have an identical twin brother that is obese, eats nothing but junk food and fast food restaurants and his PSA was practically undetectable. I am the totally opposite, and have been on a very low fat diet for over 30 years. He said that would be an interesting twin study. I put the blame on my prostate cancer as environmental, being exposed to herbicides, and pesticides and living along cancer alley in southern Louisiana.
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LifeCointosses
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Posts : 139
Posted 10/5/2019 10:54 AM (GMT -7)

lapilot said...
When I was diagnosed with prostate cancer, my oncology urologist said that based on evidence based medicine diet was a major risk factor. Well, I immediately told him that I have an identical twin brother that is obese, eats nothing but junk food and fast food restaurants and his PSA was practically undetectable. I am the totally opposite, and have been on a very low fat diet for over 30 years. He said that would be an interesting twin study. I put the blame on my prostate cancer as environmental, being exposed to herbicides, and pesticides and living along cancer alley in southern Louisiana.


I think you hit the nail on the head as to food studies having conflicting results, not analyzing exposure in daily lives and on/in the food we eat. Put stale dirty gas in your car it breaks down. Put antibiotic, growth hormone, pesticides loaded food and chemicals we break down. The government low fat high carb wars loaded population with pesticides, corporate meat factories same techniques to boost production. On the other hand vegans seem the most angry people I have seen, maybe from eating Kibble all the time😃
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Pratoman
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Posted 10/5/2019 11:17 AM (GMT -7)
Vegans are angry because they hate life.
Just my humble opinion.
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Vic Hardy
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Joined : Jun 2019
Posts : 37
Posted 10/6/2019 11:37 AM (GMT -7)

BillyBob@388 said...
As red meat/processed meat and saturated fat are closely associated, I guess this also lets saturated fat off the hook? Boy this is going to cause angst over at Dr. Gregor's web site for vegans, where he even blames diabetes on sat fat, holding carbs blameless. That is, if this study is even mentioned over there. Fingers crossed for this thread remaining open here, for a lovely, peaceful, respectful discussion! ;)

The thing I like about Greger is he's evidenced based, IE if it's not an NIH peer reviewed, random, double blind etc study he does admit it's anecdotal. That said, I just heard about this study but have not read it. Is it a bona-fide study or funded by some company that's funded by the meat industry?

Since my biopsy in Feb '19 I went vegan and my MRI about a month ago showed no growth. Of course I don't know why exactly but my meat eating days are pretty much over.

I don't miss it much.

Post Edited (Vic Hardy) : 10/6/2019 12:49:52 PM (GMT-6)

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halbert
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Posted 10/6/2019 12:42 PM (GMT -7)
As I said in the other thread about intuitive eating--those who are in the business of selling food, or supplements, or diet plans, or books about healthy eating (and I include the FDA), are not really interested in whether we eat a healthy diet. They are interested in selling books and food and supplements. Caveat Emptor.
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