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Fully Vaccinated Breakthrough COVID Infection——-My Experience

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Posted 9/3/2021 5:09 AM (GMT -8)
Perhaps I was too dogmatic when stating that boosters improve the odds for preventing COVID. What I should have said is that studies so far in Israel as well as Pfizer data indicate a dramatic improvement in prevention and do so safely. And that leading scientists believe this data so much that it is likely that the CDC will be recommending such a booster 6-8 months after a second shot. That was enough for me to get my third shot. My point however was not so much about boosters rather than the fact that even the two shot regime both prevents serious illness AND provides a level of protection against getting the virus at all. I trust there is ample proof of that for most of us?

Beyond that, I also don't accept the fatalistic views that, "there are two types of people….those that have had the virus….and those that will get the virus” or "we cannot eradicate it". While total "eradication" may indeed be impossible the fatalistic approach suggests that we might as well not do anything since we're going to get it anyway -- another favorite comment from the anti-vax crowd. I'll simply ask, when was the last time any of you had Diptheria? Or Polio, tetanus, Hepatitis A/B, mumps or smallpox for that matter? Most of these have been eliminated from our daily lives via vaccination. So I stand by the common sense advice to, "Just get the da*n shot".

Jim
Posted 9/3/2021 7:39 AM (GMT -8)
Jim,

I agree with most of what you say but I feel you conflate anti-vaxers with those that have concern with this vaccine. At the hospital I used to work at, over 20% of nurses do not want the vaccine. Many will leave their jobs because of this. Very few of them do not believe in vaccines. However, the vast are concerned that there is no data on long term side effects. Most vaccines require 5 years to hit market. It has always been that way because of the needed study of long-term effects. Many disagree with the FDA standards for releasing new drugs. However, it is overly simplistic to want to chuck the system because of this pandemic. Read the following statement:

"A survey conducted by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) has found that 58 percent of physicians are not fully vaccinated against COVID-19. The AAPS survey comes on the back of another survey conducted by the American Medical Association (AMA) which claimed that almost 96 percent of doctors are fully vaccinated against the coronavirus.

The AMA survey also stated that around 45 percent of the unvaccinated physicians planned to get inoculated. The association used the survey to push forward the idea that people must get vaccinated against COVID-19. Three hundred physicians participated in the poll.

“Practicing physicians across the country are leading by example, with an amazing uptake of the COVID-19 vaccines… Physicians and clinicians are uniquely positioned to listen to and validate patient concerns, and one of the most powerful anecdotes a physician can offer is that they themselves have been vaccinated. You can take it from your doctor: the COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective,” AMA President Susan R. Bailey said in a statement.

However, the AAPS survey questions the results of the AMA survey as it reveals that a majority of physicians have declined COVID-19 shots.

The poll saw the participation of 700 physicians and highlights the fact that physician support for mass inoculation campaigns is not as unanimous as some assert. Eighty percent of unvaccinated physicians stated that the risk from the vaccines exceeds the risk of the disease. Thirty percent admitted that they had already contracted the infection.

There are many examples of drugs that have few short term side effects but with longer study had to be withdrawn from the market. The fact that millions have received the shot without side effects is good. However, to extrapolate that to five years down the road is fraught with error. My kids are adults in their 30's and believe like me, that the long-term effects of the disease is probably worse than the potential long-term side-effects of the vaccine. But if they were 12-17, I would really have to think through vaccinating them based on the potential risk/benefit of that age group. Less than 12, I would emphatically say no.
I would also ask you to show some compassion for minorities that do not get vaccinated because of their mistrust of the government. They are aware of generations of ancestors that were used as guinea pigs for experimental drug studies. The lowest rate of vaccination is among blacks in our country..... for good reason.
Rather than calling a few of us anti-vaxer apologists, I would ask you to examine your tolerance for people that may see things different than you because of their experience and knowledge of the subject.

Paul
Posted 9/3/2021 8:32 AM (GMT -8)
It's the difference between being rational and irrational. There's no super-secret global conspiracy with the vaccines. No specific groups of people are being targeted for vaccination. Though it's not certain, science points towards the benefits of vaccination far outweighing the risks.

I'm weary. Peeps, just get vaccinated.

BTW, both of my doctor's say they are vaccinated.
Posted 9/3/2021 9:25 AM (GMT -8)
Paul, you pick your experts and I'll pick mine. I trust the American Medical Association far more than an extremist group of docs (AAPS) who have promoted things like Barack Obama hypnotizing audiences, HIV/Aids denialism, homosexuality reducing life expectancy, abortion causing breast cancer and a host of other nutty and irrational ideas over their years of existence. You are correct -- I have zero compassion for their views. But hey, that's just who I am. I also do not get how you or others who are purportedly, "strong advocates for the vaccine", continue to promote anti-vax positions which people use as excuses for not getting vaccinated. But hey, that's just who you are.

I do have compassion for the minority population that suffered through experimental drug studies. That was a despicable part of our history. But the COVID vaccines are no longer considered experimental by most medical authorities who don't have a political agenda. And the more we can do to educate our minority communities to get vaccinated and save lives the better as far as I am concerned.

So I guess you and I agree a lot on PCa stuff but will have to agree to disagree on some COVID matters. So be it.

Jim
Posted 9/3/2021 9:42 AM (GMT -8)
we haven't progressed much from the "sweden got it right" and the hydroxychloroquine works days. frankly if you are in the camp that believes the vaccines don't work but you got vaccinated anyway i don't want to hear anything you have to say.
Posted 9/3/2021 9:47 AM (GMT -8)

F8 said...
frankly if you are in the camp that believes the vaccines don't work but you got vaccinated anyway i don't want to hear anything you have to say.

Funny how that works. I have friends who were fervent Facebooks posters about things like the COVID statistics are fake, masks don't work, the vaccine is experimental, everyone should just get COVID so we can get to herd immunity, etc, etc. But they were the first ones in line for the shots and have already gotten their boosters. "Do like I say, not like I do" seems to be their motto.

Jim
Posted 9/3/2021 10:18 AM (GMT -8)
Jim,

You are a selective reader. My issue is lack of long-term data for those who are at low risk of dying from the disease. Being 67, I fall in a higher risk group. The risk/benefit of receiving the vaccine seems to be in my favor of receiving it. It appears that your issue is not related with the science and the understanding that all treatments should be based on a risk/benefit one. ( "Just get the vaccine.") Does it make you hesitate just a bit that numerous well informed people who have decades of healthcare experience are still thinking things through, or are you so convinced of your own expertise that its obvious enough to diss their opinions. Since you, the Moderator, brought up politics, I feel you have given me a pass to do likewise. I find the far-right and far-left very boorish people. They usually are not interested in truth (though both occasionally stumble on it), but more interested in power and winning. I always took you for an intellectual and not a partisan.
Posted 9/3/2021 11:19 AM (GMT -8)
Paul, I think you are selectively reading my posts as well. Let's just agree to disagree and move on. You pick your medical experts and I'll pick mine. What I do agree with you on is the boorishness of both far left and far right...hence my dissing of the AAPS which has a horrible record of bias and disinformation (note: I have changed my characterization of them to "extremist" to avoid any politicization of them). This was YOUR source, not mine. BTW, I am non-partisan politically...I vote, support and give money to folks of different political parties based on their positions on issues of importance to me not on their political label.

Jim

P.S. I'm not saying, "just get the vaccine" to everyone. Clearly not to under 12 year olds for which there is no well researched medical recommendation to do so. But for most everyone else, unless there is a critical medical or religious reason not to be vaccinated, yes..."just get the vaccine".

P.S.S. Re the 20% of nurses who won't get the vaccine at your former employer who leave their jobs...good. I don't think non-vaccinated medical personnel should be tending to our hospitalized patients. And I don't think they should get unemployment insurance if they quit...how's that for non-compassionate?
Posted 9/3/2021 11:31 AM (GMT -8)
Tud: You got that right, all of it!

I just read an article about breakthrough infections. Generally, no hospitalizations. BUT the so-called minor symptoms can be anything but. While many do have no or truly minor short-lived symptoms, quite a few suffer miserably, many of those for 6-8 weeks. Many deem it the sickest they've been in their lives.

More importantly, HOW ARE YOU DOING, JNJ?

mel
Posted 9/3/2021 1:20 PM (GMT -8)
Keep an eye on Israel. They have a very interesting situation, since they are about the most highly vaxed nation, and they will probably soon be the most highly boosted nation.

Sweden is also very interesting. Though they did not mandate much of anything as far as shut downs, masks, social distancing, etc, I think they do have a fairly high vax rate. On a "deaths per 100K" basis, they are not at all the best on earth but they are for sure quite a bit ahead of many developed nations, including us.(they are #40 on a list of nations for "deaths per 100K", we are #21).

However, their 7 day moving average of Covid deaths has been between 0 and 2(out of about a 10 million population) since about June. In my state, at less than 1/2 the population, sadly we have a current 7 day average new deaths of about 33. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

https://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/14,21995,420,873.html

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
Posted 9/3/2021 1:57 PM (GMT -8)

tudpock18 said...
Actually that is incorrect.

Nope its not. If the cdc is putting out guidance https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated-guidance.html that says even vaxed people need a mask indoors in “high transmission areas”…..that means they can be infected, and if infected they can spread it like the great unwashed, unvaxed, masses. That is an unequivocally true, factual, follow the science reality.

If you dispute that, its really just wishful thinking on your part.

Yes we agree the vaccine protects you from severe disease, but it clearly doesn't eliminate infection/transmission. Thus the guidance.

The ironic thing is that all of the vaxed people demanding that everyone bend a knee to their (somewhat sanctimonious) will, may be spreading it just as much as an unvaxed person.

Thems the facts.

….and thats ok because if you are vaxed and have a case and are unaware, you get natural immunity without great chances of tremendous suffering.

But the chances are not 0 and as the presentation JNF saw indicated "there are two types of people….those that have had the virus….and those that will get the virus”.

Its not fatalistic.

Its reality.
Posted 9/3/2021 2:11 PM (GMT -8)
I'll just say i agree with Tud and mattam. I am also, as mattam said, weary. I am tired of thinking about, worrying about, talking about, and living with Covid. But its not going away, so we do the best we can. If i say anything further, it will just be inflammatory.Thats how angry i get on the subject

So i'll shut my mouth from here on. You're welcome
Posted 9/3/2021 3:42 PM (GMT -8)
Stephen, thanks so much for providing that CDC link; it is really excellent. But may I suggest that when you provide info from a link to prove your case that you read the entire link to make sure there is not something there that disproves it. Case in point: Further down in the link you provided there are these statements, "Currently authorized vaccines in the United States are highly effective at protecting vaccinated people against symptomatic and severe COVID-19. Fully vaccinated people are less likely to become infected..."

To recap, you postulated that the vaccines only mitigate against severity of the illness ("That's it"). I postulated that the vaccines are also effective against getting the virus at all (I didn't say that it was 100% effective, of course we know that is not true). The CDC link which YOU provided states that the vaccines are, "Fully vaccinated people are less likely to become infected...". QED.

At this point it seems that you and I are merely verbally jousting on the details of vaccine effectiveness. What I find encouraging is that you are linking to a sound source (CDC) so I'm assuming you are largely in favor of the CDC guidelines re the virus -- which means you and I are generally in agreement.

I would be interested in what you think of the booster (3rd) shots. As you know if you've been reading the COVID threads I and several others have leaned in to what we feel the ultimate guidance will be, i.e. getting a 3rd shot after 6 months. I readily admit that is not current broadly accepted guidance and is a "lean in" on my part. What do you think about that?

Jim
Posted 9/3/2021 4:02 PM (GMT -8)
4.5 million people worldwide have died miserable, painful deaths from Covid-19. How many of the vaccinated have died from Covid-19? Me, I'll take the risk of possible long-term side effects from an mRNA vaccine instead of the short-term risk of an awful death or, failing that, a long, difficult recovery with countless side effects.
Posted 9/3/2021 4:17 PM (GMT -8)

Tudpock18 said...
.............................................................

Let's just agree to disagree and move on. You pick your medical experts and I'll pick mine....................................... At this point it seems that you and I are merely verbally jousting on the details of vaccine effectiveness. What I find encouraging is that you are linking to a sound source (CDC) so I'm assuming you are largely in favor of the CDC guidelines re the virus -- which means you and I are generally in agreement.

................................................

Jim

Here is what would be wonderful: if this discussion could continue as it is going- with different opinions and interpretations on all of this stuff- without any anger arising or hostility towards our brothers(or sisters). Wouldn't that be nice? I hope that it does. Of course, it stands a better chance of continuing if I simply do not comment.

As you all know, I often have opinions which are at odds with many here, and once i even hint at them, seemingly angry responses appear and the next thing you know the thread is closed. So, if I was a descent human being, I would not even be commenting here. But I am hoping that this ONE time, things will remain peaceful and respectful, differing opinions will be tolerated, even as we are strongly disagreeing among ourselves.

PDL, I suspect that you rarely agree with me on various subjects, but I am in full agreement with various opinions you have recently stated in this thread. As well as with Stephen and a couple of others(I forget who all at the moment). But, time will tell, we might all be wrong, it goes without saying.

In the mean time, I repeat: watch Israel. They might be a harbinger of what we should expect, in either direction, good or bad. Maybe he highest % vaccinated and soon to be the highest boostered population, due to a very compliant population, and a government not averse to cracking down on the population. You are not vaxed, then you can not be a part of society and survive. So, whatever their results are, it might be a harbinger and/or guide for the rest of us.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 9/3/2021 6:22:00 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/3/2021 4:32 PM (GMT -8)

Tim G said...
4.5 million people worldwide have died miserable, painful deaths from Covid-19. How many of the vaccinated have died from Covid-19? Me, I'll take the risk of possible long-term side effects from an mRNA vaccine instead of the short-term risk of an awful death or, failing that, a long, difficult recovery with countless side effects.

The part that breaks my heart about all of that: how many of those people had any knowledge of, or access to, various substances that could have saved many lives? But for most of the population, there is no one to inform them about these various helpers. Many, many studies during the pandemic show this to be the case. I still have my original running bet, which I won't repeat here. But I have seen NOTHING indicating I would have to pay out. So fine, get vaccinated- I did. Andget your boosters if needed. But don't forget those other things. Which apparently kept me and my family in good condition for the year that passed before the rushed vaccines became available. These are things which I'm pretty sure most of you- because you are better informed than most- have been doing the entire time. Things that put the odds greatly in your favor, even if you become infected. I suggest you keep doing them. I know I and my family will. Either way, may the odds be ever in your favor!

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 9/3/2021 6:36:30 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/3/2021 5:00 PM (GMT -8)

tudpock18 said...
I would be interested in what you think of the booster (3rd) shots. As you know if you've been reading the COVID threads I and several others have leaned in to what we feel the ultimate guidance will be, i.e. getting a 3rd shot after 6 months.

My wife and I are boosted! We were just shy of 6 months. I received my shot 2 weeks ago. No side effects. Israel has been doing boosters for months.

I think the timing is something they are using to try and regulate supply/demand. If they open it up too soon, it makes things more difficult for the newly vaccinated to get a slot.
Posted 9/3/2021 5:02 PM (GMT -8)
Guys, this thread started out as a useful, informative piece about what a real life individual we know who has gone through a breakthrough infection, and what it was like. Useful. Informative. Lets us know what it might be like if we get one ourselves. What to look out for, what to pay attention to.

And then it has devolved into the same sniping that has been going on for the last 18 months on every single covid related thread on this forum. I'll admit that I have participated in some of the sniping, and it was not helpful either.

I tend to agree with the idea that we have probably all been exposed at some level. I also tend to agree (but hate the reality of it) that there are only two categories, those who have had it, and those who will get it.. I also tend to agree with the idea that we are all participating in the biggest clinical trial in history, either as a recipient or as a member of the control group. The data isn't all in--and it won't be for years, and the data analysis will take decades-- but the treatment does seem to keep people alive--which is the highest goal.

With that, can we go back to the initial point--Jack, if you're reading this, I'm sorry you went through it, I'm glad you're doing better, and I hope you get back 100% soon!
Posted 9/3/2021 5:10 PM (GMT -8)
@BillyBob You and I both spent our careers working in healthcare and both of us understanding the scientific method. You write that the vaccines were rushed. What to you would constitute scientific proof that the three current vaccines against Covid-19 are safe and effective? Also, please clarify for me your position on "various substances that could have saved many lives". Are you saying that these are superior to the vaccines for preventing Covid-19 infection and its health consequences? Are you saying that both the "various substances" and the vaccines are the best defense against Covid19?

My position is that the vaccines are the best defense against Covid. I do many things that a person wanting to stay healthy does: exercise, eat healthy food, take 2,000 units of Vitamin D because I live in a northern latitude, don't smoke, etcetera. That to me does not constitute an effective defense against Covid, although it may decrease my odds of dying from Covid. And I have read nothing that convinces me that the "various substances" you write of have a significant effect on Covid infection outcomes.
Posted 9/3/2021 5:24 PM (GMT -8)
@Halbert-- There are two kinds of people: Those who believe that there are two categories of people--those who have had it, and those who will get it--and those who don't
Posted 9/3/2021 5:54 PM (GMT -8)

Tim G said...
@BillyBob You and I both spent our careers working in healthcare and both of us understanding the scientific method. You write that the vaccines were rushed. What to you would constitute scientific proof that the three current vaccines against Covid-19 are safe and effective? Also, please clarify for me your position on "various substances that could have saved many lives". Are you saying that these are superior to the vaccines for preventing Covid-19 infection and its health consequences? Are you saying that both the "various substances" and the vaccines are the best defense against Covid19?

My position is that the vaccines are the best defense against Covid. I do many things that a person wanting to stay healthy does: exercise, eat healthy food, take 2,000 units of Vitamin D because I live in a northern latitude, don't smoke, etcetera. That to me does not constitute an effective defense against Covid, although it may decrease my odds of dying from Covid. And I have read nothing that convinces me that the "various substances" you write of have a significant effect on Covid infection outcomes.


............................................................................................................

Tim, perhaps you have forgotten the many, many studies I have linked to early in the pandemic like: Study done at Tulane early in the pandemic, when they put my "bet" to the test, and they decided to check vitamin D levels of the patients in the hospital with Covid. The less sick they were, the less likely they were to be deficient in D. If they were sick enough to bein ICU with Covid, a very high % were deficient in D. But if they were UNDER AGE 75 and also in ICU with Covid, 100% were deficient in D. ONE HUNDRED %. Or how about when the hospital in Barcelona decided to check the vitamin C levels of the 18 Covid ICU patients? One of 18 is about 1/2 of whatever is considered the minimum blood level fro vitamin C, the other 17 are UNDETECTABLE for vitamin C. Etc, Etc, ad infinitum. Then there was the hospital in Spain(linked to here somewhere in the past) where they gave a metabolite for D(worked faster) to their hospitalized patients and slashed mortality. Then there are the HIGHLY CREDENTIALED MDs with the FLCCC who first included IV C(along with D and zinc etc) and later IVM in their treatment, and have about a 5% mortality among their Covid ICU patients compared to 15-32% for competing hospitals. Again, on and on, ad infinitum. All linked to here is the past, and I COULD go on, but I'm sure I am about to be accused of "strangling" rather than "caressing", so I won't go on.

But surely you have already read about ALL of that? And yet, you say "I have read nothing that convinces me that the "various substances" you write of have a significant effect on Covid infection outcomes."? Well, I can't understand that, and there is nothing more I can say, and we will just have to agree to disagree. And maybe you are right. But I am still willing to bet $ that only a tiny %- IF ANY AT ALL- of patients in ICU dying of Covid have high blood levels of D, C and zinc- or maybe we should include IVM. And even more importantly, they had high levels BEFORE they ever got that sick, and the levels were maintained AFTER they were infected. If you have any evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it, and I will definitely take it into consideration. I don't think I have seen any evidence to the contrary yet. But, again, Tim, you might be right and I might be wrong. I appreciate your opinions, Brother!
Bill

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 9/3/2021 9:08:33 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/3/2021 7:16 PM (GMT -8)
Just a heads up: it is not just Covid that we must be careful about, it is any and all viruses. These were some interesting articles I just saw from Vanderbilt, where I had my RP surgery. Be careful, and do whatever you can to optimize your immune system! :
"“Jun. 23, 2021.....We are seeing a spike in respiratory illnesses, especially RSV (respiratory syncytial virus) and parainfluenza, which cause croup and bronchiolitis in young children and flu-like symptoms in older children and adults,” said James Antoon, MD, PhD, FAAP, assistant professor of Pediatrics at Children’s Hospital at Vanderbilt.

“This is unusual for this time of the year,” he said......." https://news.vumc.org/2021/06/23/pediatricians-see-spike-in-rsv-cases-urge-parents-to-be-on-lookout-for-symptoms/

Also of interest: "about half of health care workers positive for COVID-19 by serology have no symptoms"

https://news.vumc.org/2020/07/09/about-half-of-health-care-workers-positive-for-covid-19-by-serology-have-no-symptoms/ (I can't get the link to work, try copy and paste)

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 9/3/2021 9:21:18 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/3/2021 9:42 PM (GMT -8)
@ TimG - There are three kinds of people - those who can count and those who can't.
Posted 9/3/2021 11:30 PM (GMT -8)

Vynbal said...
@ TimG - There are three kinds of people - those who can count and those who can't.

Not only that, but 5 out of 4 people don't understand fractions.
Posted 9/4/2021 12:13 PM (GMT -8)

Pratoman said...
I'll just say i agree with Tud and mattam. I am also, as mattam said, weary. I am tired of thinking about, worrying about, talking about, and living with Covid. But its not going away, so we do the best we can. If i say anything further, it will just be inflammatory.Thats how angry i get on the subject

So i'll shut my mouth from here on. You're welcome

Wise advice, Pratoman. I recently tried to ask someone questions about Covid vaccinations and he danced around but didn't answer my questions. Better for my mental health and others to leave well enough alone.
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