Open main menu ☰
HealingWell
Search Close Search
Health Conditions
Allergies Alzheimer's Disease Anxiety & Panic Disorders Arthritis Breast Cancer Chronic Illness Crohn's Disease Depression Diabetes
Fibromyalgia GERD & Acid Reflux Irritable Bowel Syndrome Lupus Lyme Disease Migraine Headache Multiple Sclerosis Prostate Cancer Ulcerative Colitis

View Conditions A to Z »
Support Forums
Anxiety & Panic Disorders Bipolar Disorder Breast Cancer Chronic Pain Crohn's Disease Depression Diabetes Fibromyalgia GERD & Acid Reflux
Hepatitis Irritable Bowel Syndrome Lupus Lyme Disease Multiple Sclerosis Ostomies Prostate Cancer Rheumatoid Arthritis Ulcerative Colitis

View Forums A to Z »
Log In
Join Us
Close main menu ×
  • Home
  • Health Conditions
    • All Conditions
    • Allergies
    • Alzheimer's Disease
    • Anxiety & Panic Disorders
    • Arthritis
    • Breast Cancer
    • Chronic Illness
    • Crohn's Disease
    • Depression
    • Diabetes
    • Fibromyalgia
    • GERD & Acid Reflux
    • Irritable Bowel Syndrome
    • Lupus
    • Lyme Disease
    • Migraine Headache
    • Multiple Sclerosis
    • Prostate Cancer
    • Ulcerative Colitis
  • Support Forums
    • All Forums
    • Anxiety & Panic Disorders
    • Bipolar Disorder
    • Breast Cancer
    • Chronic Pain
    • Crohn's Disease
    • Depression
    • Diabetes
    • Fibromyalgia
    • GERD & Acid Reflux
    • Hepatitis
    • Irritable Bowel Syndrome
    • Lupus
    • Lyme Disease
    • Multiple Sclerosis
    • Ostomies
    • Prostate Cancer
    • Rheumatoid Arthritis
    • Ulcerative Colitis
  • Log In
  • Join Us
Join Us
☰
Forum Home| Forum Rules| Moderators| Active Topics| Help| Log In

So annoyed at these phony numbers

Support Forums
>
Prostate Cancer
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply
❬ ❬ Previous Thread |Next Thread ❭ ❭
profile picture
compiler
Veteran Member
Joined : Nov 2009
Posts : 7699
Posted 11/1/2021 5:27 AM (GMT -8)
So annoyed at these phony numbers.

Here are my two most recent claims:

I was having some heart palpitations. They had me wear a Holter monitor for 24 hours.

The charge: $506.

Amount approved: $70.

My cost: $7.

Second, I had a video conference for about 10 minutes with my P.A. at U. of Mich. to go over my latest PSA results. There were 2 charges.

Prof. Corp:
$83. Charge
$53.60 approved.
My cost: $5.37

Hospital charge: $122.
Amount approved: $119
My cost: $11.89

I am always amazed at the ridiculous costs, relative to the OOP payments. I have BCBS MA PPO. I’m sure the OOP costs for folks range from Zero to Full Price??
I doubt if this is news for anyone posting here, but I'm always shaking my head in amazement when I get these statements.

Mel
profile picture
JNF
Veteran Member
Joined : Dec 2010
Posts : 5725
Posted 11/1/2021 6:16 AM (GMT -8)
Mel, while many appear high, unwarranted and often get knocked down, they aren’t actually phony for several reasons, with two being primary.

First, it is well known that Medicare level reimbursements will not and can not sustain the present level of health care in the United States. That fact is well known and no one in the know disputes it. The commercial insurance, other third party payors and the patient must fill the gap created by Medicare/Medicaid, or the overall level of care and availability must be reduced or eliminated. So if a procedure actually costs $100 and Medicare only pays $50 then someone else has to pay $150. If not, then after a while of losing money, the procedure will no longer be provided to anyone and then everyone loses out.

Second, each provider negotiates and/or accepts payment limits from commercial insurers and other third party payors like unions, self-insured company plans, HMOs, etc. This varies greatly by area and combinations of different providers and insurers/unions/employer self insured plans, etc. the provider lists a price that is known to all and negotiates down from there. Whatever they first list is the most they can negotiate from, so they purposely pad the assumed price. By definition it must be padded about 35-50 due to the Medicare/Medicaid underpayment gap. Then they must pad the assumed expense even more to guard against unsuccessful negotiations or coercive effect by very large payors.

It is this first, highest charge that you see on the bill and EOB. That is what law and regulations require. Basically no one pays it. Even the self paying negotiate with the providers and many court cases have ruled that an uninsured can only be charged as much as the insurance companies have negotiated, not necessarily the top-line on the bill.

An exception to this would be practitioners that do not negotiate with insurers and do not directly participate in Medicare. They tell you the charge, you accept it or negotiate it, if possible, and then pay it. Then you independently claim against your insurance plan or Medicare and receive some reimbursement in many cases. You will remember the renowned PCa medical oncologist, Dr. Snuffy Meyers. Several men on the board used him before his retirement. He used this method. The growing number of concierge practices use this method as well by charging a set monthly “membership” charge that then provides certain visits and procedures. For some things within the membership the patient may receive a reimbursement. Of course for hospitalizations and other such costs outside the membership, the rules of provider and payor reimbursement are in place.

The best I can advise is simply don’t look at the numbers unless you have to stroke a check. That is the only real and meaningful number. Find other things, like last night’s Braves game, to fuel anger and depression. Works for me.
profile picture
Pratoman
Forum Moderator
Joined : Nov 2012
Posts : 9313
Posted 11/1/2021 2:56 PM (GMT -8)
When i had my cardiac catheterization and stents inserted, the hospital billed Blue Cross $92,000. Payment was $52,000. For a 45 -60 minute procedure and about 3 hours in recovery. Not including Cardiologist and Anesthesiologist. I was annoyed enough to call Blue Cross and ask who at the hospital was doing you know what to the executives at Blue Cross LOL.

But since then, i do what JNF suggests. I dont even bother looking at bills. Or even EOB's. As long as i dont get a bill from a doctor or hospital, thats all i care about. And usually i dont. If i do, i go online, and look, to make sure its just the deductible. Otherwise , i dont care.
profile picture
halbert
Veteran Member
Joined : Dec 2014
Posts : 5814
Posted 11/1/2021 3:02 PM (GMT -8)
That's probably the wisest course of action. These kinds of things are the most commonly visible indication of everything that is wrong with our system of medicine and how it's paid for. I'm going to stop there.
profile picture
mattam
Veteran Member
Joined : Aug 2015
Posts : 3979
Posted 11/1/2021 3:16 PM (GMT -8)
Well, how else are the docs going to pay for their kids' dental braces? 😁
profile picture
compiler
Veteran Member
Joined : Nov 2009
Posts : 7699
Posted 11/1/2021 7:35 PM (GMT -8)
JNF:

You say the figure is not phony, yet later you say:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Whatever they first list is the most they can negotiate from, so they purposely pad the assumed price.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sounds phony to me, ie: "paddded" = "phony".

SEMANTICS.

I do what you all do, actually. When I get a bill showing I owe something -- as I did in the real examples I gave -- I just look at the claim's bottom line via BCBS. Invariably, it's correct. But this time I couldn't help noticing the numbers,

Thanks for the detailed response.

Mel
profile picture
halbert
Veteran Member
Joined : Dec 2014
Posts : 5814
Posted 11/2/2021 4:42 AM (GMT -8)
The reality is that the insurers, not the providers set the list price AND the reimbursement rate. (non-medicare) IMO because then they can say "we negotiated a 70% savings for you".

The only people who pay list price are the uninsured who pay it all out of pocket. In theory, they can negotiate a lower price--but who, as an individual, has the knowledge and ability to do so?
profile picture
81GyGuy
Veteran Member
Joined : Oct 2012
Posts : 3527
Posted 11/2/2021 6:46 AM (GMT -8)
Like everyone else, I have gotten the "tripartite" bill, shall we call it, from time to time, with the whopping "charge," the much smaller "amount approved," and the final, smaller still, and reassuringly so,"my cost."

To use compiler's example:

charge $506
amount approved $70
my cost $7

Sometimes the "my cost" figure has even been printed in boldface, as if to say, "don't worry about those two other numbers, this is the only one that you need to be concerned about."

Which at times has actually caused me to wonder, half seriously, whether this three-number presentation format they are using, and whether they are doing it intentionally or not, has the effect of making the "my cost" figure, what we will actually owe, seem not so bad. ("Hey, at least it's so much less than those other two charges!"). So we don't mind paying it so much.

Maybe that's not really the intention of the billers, but one wonders.
profile picture
Tim G
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2006
Posts : 3052
Posted 11/2/2021 2:42 PM (GMT -8)
Rather than provide a sound bite answer that misses important details about medical billing, I recommend this outstanding book, "An American Sickness: How Healthcare Became a Big Business and How You Can Take It Back", by Elisabeth Rosenthal, MD
profile picture
Duck2
Regular Member
Joined : Dec 2019
Posts : 411
Posted 11/2/2021 4:06 PM (GMT -8)
What would you charge the patients without health insurance when you know 50% will not pay you?
profile picture
Tim G
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2006
Posts : 3052
Posted 11/2/2021 5:17 PM (GMT -8)
Maryland is the only state that regulates hospitals payments and puts the kabosh on the big amounts hospitals charge for services.
profile picture
Todd1963
Veteran Member
Joined : Oct 2008
Posts : 3563
Posted 11/2/2021 5:36 PM (GMT -8)
Compiler,
I bet it seriously frustrating as I remember you being a math guy. Lol I recently had my SSDI approved so suppose I will be dealing with funky math in a couple of years. Don’t pull your hair out.
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply


More On Prostate Cancer

Positive For Prostate Cancer

Positive For Prostate Cancer

An Unexpected Diagnosis Of Prostate Cancer

An Unexpected Diagnosis Of Prostate Cancer


HealingWell

About Us  |   Advertise  |   Subscribe  |   Privacy & Disclaimer
Connect With Us
Facebook Twitter Instagram Pinterest LinkedIn
© 1997-2023 HealingWell.com LLC All Rights Reserved. Our website is for informational purposes only. HealingWell.com LLC does not provide medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.