All Day Chemist

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Bent1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 26
   Posted 1/20/2007 12:21 PM (GMT -6)   
 
I've heard several on here talk about ordring ED drugs from, and having a good experience with, "All Day Chemist."
 
Since they are in India the transaction seems to raise several red flags.
 
Would folks that have experience with them be so kind as to walk me through the transaction?
 
Did you order on the Web?
 
Did you use a credit card?
 
Was a perscription required?  (I know their site ask you to fax it to them, is it really required?)
 
Can you order whatever quantities you want?  Regardless of what the perscription says?
 
Safety of the product and security of the transaction?
 
Etc.etc.
 
Sorry if I'm asking things here that shouldn't be discussed in an open forum.
 
This forum doesn't seem to have a way to send private messges, so I though I'd just put it out there and see.
 
Thanks for your help.
 
Bent1
 
 
 

Diagnosed 6/2/06, at age 63, DiVinci surgery on 9/21/06, PSA 3.6, Gleason 3+3=6  revised to 4+3=7 after pathology,  11/27/06 PSA undetectable.


Swimom
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2006
Total Posts : 1732
   Posted 1/20/2007 5:11 PM (GMT -6)   
Bent1,

I've ordered 3 meds from alldaychemis.com on 2 seperate occasions without a problem of any sort.

It is a secured site.

No script is necessary however, there are some questions asked...no biggie. It is mentioned that under some conditions they may ask that a script be faxed. ED drugs must not be a problem or perhaps it's the reason for use given. I was asked if Paul has a script and my answer was yes.

I ordered 10 Levitra and 20 Viagra the first time just to check out their product. Second time I ordered 60 Vardenafil and 20 (w/20 free) Sildenafil plus another unrelated medication to try. about a "90" day supply in otherwords. The second order was sent in 2 parts take about 3 weeks give or take, to arrive.

So far so good Bent. No 3rd head and no screwy blood test results so far!

Shipping for up to "3-4 medications in up to 90 day supplies is 24.60." So far they do what they say and I have had no problems in dealing with allday.

If you want to know the exact safety of it I suppose you could have it analyzed by a chemist for fillers and content. I figure if they make themselves pretty easy to contact they are a better risk than those that aren't
reachable.

Swim

Bent1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 26
   Posted 1/20/2007 6:52 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks Swim,
 
That is mainly what I was looking for.  So if I read between the lines, they do what they claim to do and sort of wink and nod at the perscription thing.  That is rather what I suspected.
 
I take it you also just used a credit card?
 
Right now I have perscription drug coverage, but mid year, that will be changing, so I am beginning to explore my options.
 
I think I also read on here a while back that Medicare part D does NOT cover ED drugs.  Can anyone confirm that, or straighten me out?
 
Thanks,
 
Bent1
 
 

Diagnosed 6/2/06, at age 63, DiVinci surgery on 9/21/06, PSA 3.6, Gleason 3+3=6  revised to 4+3=7 after pathology,  11/27/06 PSA undetectable.


ed from pa
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 42
   Posted 1/21/2007 4:04 AM (GMT -6)   

Good morning Bent 1,

I have ordered viagra from all day chemist about four weeks ago. My order should arrive this week. I read about them in the prostate pointers forum. There are quite a few men that have ordered from all day chemist, and they are very satisfied. I used the credit card. The price is right. I am saving quite a few dollars buying from them. It is .80 a pill including shipping, compared to $10 dollars a pill through my insurance, and they only allow me three pills a month. I believe a doctor recommended them to one of his patients on the prostate forum.. I can't believe that they do not require a prescription. But hey that is one less hassle for me. They took the order right over the phone, no problems at all. I will keep you posted on the arrival time and how they work. They probably work fine, I am the one not working. But that will change. God Bless you Bent 1, you will do just fine.

Ed from Pa

Jesus Christ Big C

cancer small c


56pontiac
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2006
Total Posts : 232
   Posted 1/21/2007 10:53 AM (GMT -6)   
Excellent to deal with have ordered two times Viagra and Cialis. No problems at all. Go for it.

kw
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 883
   Posted 1/21/2007 11:15 AM (GMT -6)   

I may have to go this route also.  I filed a appeal with Blue Cross / Blue Shield or Oklahoma.  They are rejecting my appeal to give an exception for one year of coverage for Viagra.  I feel we are all being penalized by not being given coverage for these drugs due to the fact we had PC and the surgery caused the ED.  BCBS is jsut going by the the letter of the the policy with no regeard to us the patients!

Would like to hear more from you all that have used all day chemest.

Thanks,  KW


    43
    PSA 5.7 - Discovered during Annual Physical with Family Practice Dr.
    Gleason 7
    Biopsy - 3 of 12 positive (up to 75%) all on left side of prostate
    RRP on Oct. 17, 2006 - Nerves on right side saved.
    All Lab's clear.  No Cancer outside prostate
    Cathiter in for 3 weeks due to complications in healing. Removed Nov. 9, 2006
    First Post op PSA on Dec. 11, 2006  Undetectable 0.00
    Next Office Visit Feb. 12, 2007
   


M. Kat
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 715
   Posted 1/21/2007 2:22 PM (GMT -6)   
I finally placed an order a week ago and am waiting for delivery. I'll let you know what we think. we did not have to prove a prescription.
Husband Jeff 56 years old diagnosed July 27, 2006
PSA 6.5, 2 positive areas in biopsy, Gleason 3+3=6
Radical Retropubic Prostatectomy August 30, 2006
pathology report - all clear - cancer gone
1st post-surgery PSA test 0.1, 2nd post-surgery PSA test 0.1
no more pads Oct 12, 2006
first "real" erection with use of pump 12/16/06


Bent1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 26
   Posted 1/21/2007 2:44 PM (GMT -6)   
Wow,  I didn't realize that this would turn out to be such a popular topic when I ask the original questions.  But then I guess that is the benifit of this forum, so we can all share and all learn from each other.
 
Please continue to up date as you gain more experience.
 
thanks,
 
Bent1

Diagnosed 6/2/06, at age 63, DiVinci surgery on 9/21/06, PSA 3.6, Gleason 3+3=6  revised to 4+3=7 after pathology,  11/27/06 PSA undetectable.


Chris56
New Member


Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 1
   Posted 3/2/2009 6:04 PM (GMT -6)   
Great product at 90% discount over US price. No problems with these people.

Paul1959
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 598
   Posted 3/2/2009 7:05 PM (GMT -6)   
Rest easy. I've used them for over a year now. They are perfectly fine. I have sent several guys from my PCa support group to them as well. They all use ADC now. My best friend uses them for Wellbutrin too.
Paul
46 at Diagnosis.
Father died of Pca 4/07 at 86.
1/06 PSA 3.15
1/07 PSA 4.6 (Biopsy 3/07 just suspicious)
10/07 PSA 5.06 (Biopsy 11/07 1 of 12 with 8% involvment) (1mm)
Da Vinci surgery Jan 5, '08 at Mt. Sinai Hosp. NYC www.roboticoncology.com
Saved both nerve bundles.
Path Report: Stage T2cNxMx
-Gleason (3+3)6
-totally contained to prostate,
-10% involvement in L & R Mid lobes
PSA 0 at nine months.
Pad free on March 14 - (10 weeks.) Never a problem since.
ED - Took 100mg viagra every night. for several months
Totally usable erections at 10 weeks, which disappeared over the course of a month or two.
ED bounce is what they call it. Now, at one year, ED is fine with viagra.
One year PSA - undectable!


B&B's World
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 120
   Posted 3/2/2009 11:21 PM (GMT -6)   
B says that the "Manly" does not provide the consistent results that Viagra does.  It works 60-70% of the time, so he uses it for the 1/4 pill, nightly maintenance dose, since his surgery.  Obviously, we are very glad about the reduced cost!
Becky

Age 51

Gleason 3+3

PSA from 3.2 to 4.3 in one yr

Biopsy 11/06

DRE negative

4 of 12 cores positive, one lobe, less than 10%

Inflammation only second lobe

Stage T1C Clinical Dx

PSA prior to surgery: 3.9

Da Vinci Prostatectomy 2/27/07:

PCa in BOTH lobes 5-10% of gland

Gleason 3+3

Negative tissue margins

Bladder, seminal ves, vas deferntia negative

Two inguinal hernia repairs

Catheter removed 1 wk after surgery

Full continence (no pad needed) 1 wk after surgery, then intermittent drips 4 wks out

Full erection, 12th day after surgery

2 mo’s post-op, some ED after penetration

3 month PSA 0.03

6 month PSA non-existent

1 year   PSA  non-existent

1 1/2 yr PSA  non-existent

Erectile function--up and running!

Two year anniversary on 2/27/09-Sex life back to normal!

 


BillyMac
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 1858
   Posted 3/3/2009 6:29 AM (GMT -6)   
Did nobody notice this thread is a year old?

JerseyG
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 65
   Posted 3/3/2009 3:56 PM (GMT -6)   
How does one order cialis from ADC? The website states it is not for sale in the United States.

Age now 44 (43 when dx)
 
Pre-op PSA:  0.9
Biopsy: 3/12 cores pos  20% 30% 50%
Gleason 3+3=6
Robotic RP:   Aug 08 1 day hospital stay, cath out on 8th day.
Post Surgery Pathology Report: Gleason 6, pT2c, tumor 10% contained in prostate gland, all margins negative. Negative lymph nodes
Post Op PSA: Dec 08 <0.1


BillyMac
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 1858
   Posted 3/4/2009 3:48 AM (GMT -6)   
Jersey,
One of our members (who it was escapes me at the moment) obtained the generic form of Cialis by stating he would not be consuming it in the U.S. wink smilewinkgrin
Bill
1/05 PSA----2.9 3/06-----3.2 3/07-------4.1 5/07------3.9 All negative DREs
Aged 59 when diagnosed
Biopsy 6/07
4 of 10 cores positive for Adenocarcinoma-------bummer!
Core 1 <5%, core 2----50%, core 3----60%, core 4----50%
Biopsy Pathologist's comment:
Gleason 4+3=7 (80% grade 4) Stage T2c
Neither extracapsular nor perineural invasion is identified
CT scan and Bone scan show no evidence of metastases
Da Vinci RP Aug 10th 2007
Post-op pathology:
Positive for perineural invasion and 1 small focal extension
Negative at surgical margins, negative node and negative vesicle involvement
Some 4+4=8 identified ........upgraded to Gleason 8
PSA Oct 07 <0.1 undetectable
PSA Jan 08 <0.1 undetectable
PSA April 08 <0.001 undetectable (disregarded due to lab "misreporting")
PSA August 08 <0.001 undetectable (disregarded due to lab "misreporting")
Post-op pathology rechecked by new lab:
Gleason downgraded to 4+3=7
Focal extension comprised of grade 3 cells
PSA September 08 <0.01 (new lab)
PSA February 09 <0.01


JerseyG
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 65
   Posted 3/4/2009 8:23 AM (GMT -6)   
I guess I'll send an email stating I won't consume in the US to cover their a**es. Thanks Bill.
 
-George
Age now 44 (43 when dx)
 
Pre-op PSA:  0.9
Biopsy: 3/12 cores pos  20% 30% 50%
Gleason 3+3=6
Robotic RP:   Aug 08 1 day hospital stay, cath out on 8th day.
Post Surgery Pathology Report: Gleason 6, pT2c, tumor 10% contained in prostate gland, all margins negative. Negative lymph nodes
Post Op PSA: Dec 08 <0.1


smilinjack
New Member


Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 15
   Posted 3/7/2009 8:49 AM (GMT -6)   
I just received this from ADC. I am not going to do what they request.
Jack

Dear Jack

I take the opportunity to thank you for the above order at our site www.alldaychemist.com.

I would like to inform you that we are currently facing some problems in processing payments through credit card/s. You are thus requested to send us a personal check / money order / wire transfer for the amount of the order. Please note that a $5.00 discount will also be applied as per our current offer. The check / money order can be sent to us by regular mail which will cost you only about a Dollar. For your reference the details are enclosed herein:

Amount of the order (Original Order Amount after deducting $5.00): US$ 86.67


Details for paying by check / Money Order:



DERRIC WOOD

12/12 Shakti Nagar

Delhi - 110007 (India)



Please make the same payable in the name of our company, DERRIC WOOD.
Jack
age 67
DX 7 Jan. 09
psa 4.1
prostate size 61cc
free psa 17%
Gleason 3+3=6
14 cores 1 had cancer 5%
Going to do Proton Beam Therapy


Jstars
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 489
   Posted 3/7/2009 9:47 AM (GMT -6)   
Just a quick update on my first ADC experience.
I placed the order on a Friday (and did not take the default doc --maybe should have -- i put in my real Doc). The order languished for over a week before shipping on Sunday -- no real explanation except 'pending'. But then the package just rocketed thru to NYC .. thru customs in a day and delivered on Friday. That's impressive (have used PlanetDrugsDirect for other stuff and always takes 3+ weeks).

Also on ADC I had placed a second order on Sunday and it went thru in a couple days and is now being delivered -- I suppose that is more typical?

And finally, the 20 mg Levitra while not doing a whole lot at this point (4 weeks post op) did have some effect -- got tons more tries after that one so I am not worried. (Plus the pump works great afterwards).

Does anyone have a comment as to why Docs would prescribe 10mg Levitra as a maintenance dose ( to keep blood flowing) rather than 20 mg (more is better yah?) other than the cost factor (or perhaps lesser side effects)?? Is there any problem using the full dose daily or every other day over a long period of time?

Update: I too have gotten that email requesting a check, money order or bank wire. I guess the second order had not shipped yet - although they had given me a tracking number for it. (or they are just very trusting!).
Age 58, 192lbs, 6'4", 57 at DX, PSA Aug2008 7 4 ... June2007 4.7 (BPH + LUTS)
Biopsy Nov2008 1 of 12 cores 5%, Gleason 3+3 - Sona showed 140+ cc (110 grams post op) prostate size.
open RP surgery 02/03/9, Nerve sparing both sides, 1 day in hospital, Day 4 first BM,
Post-surgery Pathlogy Report - All margins clear - No Invasive spread - no change in Gleason score.
Cath out on 2/18/9, passed a STONE within hours. To be analyzed by doc.
Using pump (encore) daily since catheter out -- Viagra and Levitra samples now and then (no effect).
03/06/09 Started Levitra 20mg rehabbing.

Post Edited (JimStars) : 3/7/2009 8:16:13 PM (GMT-7)


Ziggy9
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 981
   Posted 3/7/2009 9:54 AM (GMT -6)   
smilinjack said...
I just received this from ADC. I am not going to do what they request.
Jack

Dear Jack

I take the opportunity to thank you for the above order at our site www.alldaychemist.com.

I would like to inform you that we are currently facing some problems in processing payments through credit card/s. You are thus requested to send us a personal check / money order / wire transfer for the amount of the order. Please note that a $5.00 discount will also be applied as per our current offer. The check / money order can be sent to us by regular mail which will cost you only about a Dollar. For your reference the details are enclosed herein:

Amount of the order (Original Order Amount after deducting $5.00): US$ 86.67


Details for paying by check / Money Order:



DERRIC WOOD

12/12 Shakti Nagar

Delhi - 110007 (India)



Please make the same payable in the name of our company, DERRIC WOOD.


I turned a friend of mine on to that site too. He also received the above letter. I'm not sure what's going on for my single order was problem free. He wrote back asking allday was this letter a scam or what? They sent back a letter confirming the above but also stated they had sent the shipment anyway. So as I told him wait and see what happens if you receive the shipment, if they bill your credit card, and go from there. They sent the bank address for a wire transfer and I noticed they use citibank. So who knows maybe overseas they're scared to go through them anymore or maybe their international transactions are becoming insolvent.

This was the allday reply:
Dear Ernest(not me)

Thank you for the recent mail.

Please note that we are facing some problems in processing payments through credit card/s thus you are requested to please send a Check/ Money order.

The shipment has already been sent by registered regular air mail and the shipment takes 5-15 days to deliver.

With warm regards

ANUJ
Tel (US): 1-213-291-2588
1-213-814-1441
Diagnosed 11/08/07 - Age: 58 - 3 of 12 @5%
Psa: 2.3 - 3+3=6 - Size: 34g -T-2-A
 
2/22/08 - 3D Mapping Saturation Biopsy - 1 of 45 @2% - Psa:2.1 - 3+3=6 - 28g after taking Avodart - Catheter for 1 day -Good Candidate for TFT(Targeted Focal Therapy) Cryosurgery(Ice Balls) - Clinical Research Study
 
4/22/08 - TFT performed at University of Colorado Medical Center - Catheter for 4 days - Slight soreness for 2 weeks but afterward life returns as normal
 
7/30/08 - Psa: .32
11/10/08 - Psa.62 - Not unexpected bounce after the 80% drop the quarter earlier. Along with urine flow readings, an acceptable amount left in bladder measured by sonic. Results warrant skipping third quarter tests, and to return April, 2009 for final biopsy scheduled to
complete clinical research study 
 
 
 

Post Edited (realziggy) : 3/7/2009 9:09:59 AM (GMT-7)


StrictlyInc
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 357
   Posted 3/7/2009 11:34 AM (GMT -6)   
I also just received an email today saying they can't process credit cards, and asking for a check. Not sure if I will send one yet... Though I have ordered using a credit card several times in the past, I am hesitant to send them a check. I imagine they might be going through tough economic issues like everyone else.
____________________

Prostate cancer diagnosed: May 15, 2006 (age 40)
Gleason score: pre-surgery 3+3=6; post-surgery 3+4=7
daVinci radical prostatectomy: July 25, 2006
size of tumor: approx 1.1 inches; negative margins from surgery

- number of pads/day at 3 months after surgery: 3 to 5
- number of pads/day at 4 months after surgery: 1 to 2
- number of pads/day at 6-18 months after surgery: 0 to 1

- 1st post-surgery PSA: 0 (Nov 2006); 2nd post-surgery PSA: 0 (Feb 2007); - 3rd post-surgery PSA: 0 (May 2007);
4th post-surgery PSA: 0 (June 2007); 5th post-surgery PSA: 0 (Dec 2007); 6th post-surgery PSA: 0 (June 2008)

The search for timber: took Viagra/Cialis approx. every other day, ErecAid once a day, injections. Peyronie's diagnosed 7/5/07. Now on daily Cialis, L-arginine and pentoxyfylline. Peyronies has stabilized and significantly reversed.

- PGE1 batting average: .364 (4 for 11)
- Bimix #3 batting average: .722 (13 for 18) Bimix #1 batting average (41 for 43) = .953
- Trimix batting average: .500 (1 for 2) Grand total 60 for 74 = .811

"Lost in the valley without my horses, no one can tell me what my remorse is..."


Swimom
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2006
Total Posts : 1732
   Posted 3/7/2009 11:40 AM (GMT -6)   
So make it a money order.....that'll work
 


Bent1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 26
   Posted 3/8/2009 6:21 PM (GMT -6)   

Wow, looks like this is the topic that I started over two years ago now.

I agree that the latest communication from them re: the credit card processing sounds highly suspicious.

I've ordered from them twice now, but not recently.

The first order seemed to be routinely processed.  Took a while, but worked out great.  The second one, they shipped, but then sent a couple of Emails concerning problems with the credit card. 

Before I responded, I got a call from my credit card company asking if I had placed an order with "Global Meds" and provided a dollar amount.  I recognized the dollar amount, but not the billing name.  However, I was pretty sure that, in reality, it was All Day Chemist.  So, I OK'd it.  Then responded to their Email that I had cleared up the matter with the credit card company.  It all worked out fine.  I haven't had to order from them for several months now, but will have to again before too long.

I'll be interested to see how this current payment situation works out for everyone.

Please share your experience.

thanks,

 Bent1


Diagnosed 6/2/06, at age 63, DiVinci surgery on 9/21/06, PSA 3.6, Gleason 3+3=6  revised to 4+3=7 after pathology,  11/27/06 PSA undetectable.


Bent1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 26
   Posted 3/8/2009 6:24 PM (GMT -6)   
If All Day Chemist is going to become a problem, are there other sources that are considered reliable, and less problematic with the payments?
 
Thanks,
 
Bent1
Diagnosed 6/2/06, at age 63, DiVinci surgery on 9/21/06, PSA 3.6, Gleason 3+3=6  revised to 4+3=7 after pathology,  11/27/06 PSA undetectable.


James C.
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4462
   Posted 3/8/2009 6:37 PM (GMT -6)   
I agree that the situation is a little worrying, but given the chaos in the world banking systems now, it is probably understandable that there may be problems using credit cards to transfer funds between countries, especially if one of the largest providers of such cards is in dire financial trouble. As a couple of people has mentioned, the use of Money orders, certified checks or other monetary methods will work just as well. We have to just remember how we did business before the ease of credit cards.... turn Heck, I remember the time when I would just write out a personal check and buy stuff....It wasn't that long ago, either. If I trusted them with my credit card number, I don't see why I couldn't trust the same people with a personal check. But that's just my opinion.....lol

As far as other sources, I am sure some will be developed by our members if needed, but for now there's still ways to use ADC, and I don't know of any other place int he world where we can get such drugs as we need safely and as cheap.
James C. Age 62
Co-Moderator- Prostate Cancer Forum
4/07 PSA 7.6, referred to Urologist, recheck 6.7
7/07 Biopsy: 3 of 16 PCa, 5% involved, left lobe, GS 3/3=6
9/07 Nerve sparing open RRP- Path Report: GS 3+3=6 Stg. pT2c, 110gms, margins clear
16 mts: ED- 50 mg Viagra 3X week, pump daily,Trimix .35ml 2X week continues
PSA's: .04 each 3 months


Jstars
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 489
   Posted 3/9/2009 6:22 PM (GMT -6)   
Here is some added interesting info I got in a reply from ADC concerning their issues with credit cards:
(similar to what friend of RealZiggy reported).

"Your shipment has already been sent ....."

"Currently we are unable to process the payment though Credit/Debit cards due to some problems in our payment processing gateway which will be sorted out in the next 30-40 days. It is a temporary problem. We will charge your card later."

Now THAT's what I call service!!

Sounds like they must have responded to an uprising from irate credit card weilding customers or something!

very nice ...

Updating this right here: (3/23)

The order arrived today -- so around 20 days start to finish. Go forth and do Likewise!
Age 58, 192lbs, 6'4", 57 at DX, PSA Aug2008 7 4 ... June2007 4.7 (BPH + LUTS)
Biopsy Nov2008 1 of 12 cores 5%, Gleason 3+3 - Sona showed 140+ cc (110 grams post op) prostate size.
open RP surgery 02/03/09, Nerve sparing both sides, 1 day in hospital, Day 4 first BM,
Pathology Report - All margins clear - No Invasive spread - no change in Gleason score.
2/18/09 Cath out, passed a STONE within hours. To be analyzed by doc.
Using pump (encore) daily since catheter out -- Viagra and Levitra samples now and then (no effect).
03/06/09 Started Levitra 20mg rehabbing -> 3/23 no real effect yet.
03/20/09 First post-PSA blood drawn -> 04/01 will be meeting w/PA.

Post Edited (JimStars) : 3/23/2009 9:39:19 PM (GMT-6)


Bent1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 26
   Posted 3/10/2009 2:45 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks Jim,
 
That makes me feel a little better.  It will be longer than that before I have to reorder from them.  Hopefully, by then everything will be all sorted out and back on track.
 
Bent1
Diagnosed 6/2/06, at age 63, DiVinci surgery on 9/21/06, PSA 3.6, Gleason 3+3=6  revised to 4+3=7 after pathology,  11/27/06 PSA undetectable.  Remains undectable 12/08

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