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My HiFU Trip

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Prostate Cancer
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pcdave
Regular Member
Joined : Oct 2006
Posts : 444
Posted 5/28/2007 12:00 PM (GMT -8)
Dear Ben (HIFU)

Thanks for sharing your journey with HIFU. It is important that we learn about all kinds of PCa treatments here, including newer ones such a HIFU. I chose Proton Therapy which many may well consider a newer form of treatment, although it has been around for several decades (albeit there were very few Proton Treatment Centers until recently). Thank you for educating us and being part of this wonderful forum. One thing that seemed to be missing from your journey is a more detailed explanation of what the treatment is all about and how it is supposed to hopefully destroy the prostate cancer (i.e., what is HIFU)? I think our readers would like to know more about the treatment itself.  Best of luck to you as your healing process continues.

Dave
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pasayten
Veteran Member
Joined : Mar 2007
Posts : 539
Posted 5/28/2007 12:34 PM (GMT -8)

HIFU,

I too, like Dave, am also interested in searching out info on new treatments, even though I have already had a DaVinci 4/24.  My younger brother is on the same path as me (about 4 years behind), so any additional info will be a help to him.

I did find a pretty good Ablatherm HIFU web page at:

http://www.hifu.ca/patient/about_ablatherm.php

Also another one for Sonablate HIFU web page at:

http://www.internationalhifu.com/what_is_hifu/what_is_the_sonablate_500_.html

and their patient brochure that has their spin on comparisons of Ablatherm vs Sonablate.

http://www.internationalhifu.com/images/stories/patient_brochure_verc.pdf

I would be interested if you looked into any of the different HIFU equipment/methods/prices and locations.  I see that Canada also has this treatment.  Were they significantly less experienced that the Munich doctor?  At least no language issues in Canada.  I know doctor quality and experience was a factor in choosing my location for the DaVinci.

Thanks and God Bless!

Ray

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AML1248
New Member
Joined : Jun 2007
Posts : 2
Posted 6/15/2007 7:14 AM (GMT -8)
People from the U.S. are currently getting the HIFU procedure using the Sonablate in Mexico, Dominican Republic, and Canada. I have done some research, and international studies have shown that 94% of the people who underwent the Sonablate procedure who had a PSA of 10 or less were cancer-free after a three year period. Beside its effectiveness, the main draw to HIFU seems to be the lower incidences of incontinence and impotence , and its fast recovery time. I think for many men it is the quality of life issue that leads them to choose HIFU over the other options. There is a website, www.internationalhifu.com, where you can find out more info about the HIFU procedure performed in Canada, Mexico, and the Dominican Republic.
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AML1248
New Member
Joined : Jun 2007
Posts : 2
Posted 6/15/2007 7:27 AM (GMT -8)
From what I've read, there are differences in features and functions between the Sonablate and the Ablatherm. It looks as if the Sonablate has many advantages over the Ablatherm. The Ablatherm is more likely to require the use of a TURP. The Sonablate is able to give a 3d image of the prostate during the procedure while the Ablatherm does not have this 3D feature. The Sonablate can identify during the procedure the blood flow to the nerves that control erectile function. This leads to lower incidences of improtence. Also, the Sonablate uses a smaller beam than the Ablatherm which allows for more precision.
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HIFU
Regular Member
Joined : Feb 2007
Posts : 27
Posted 7/10/2007 2:09 PM (GMT -8)
Four Months after my Hifu, I got my second PSA result, exactly the same as before 0.05 or undetectable.

No problems or side effects.

Next visit in three months.

Good luck

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bluebird
Veteran Member
Joined : May 2006
Posts : 2543
Posted 7/10/2007 2:31 PM (GMT -8)
  Hi ~ Ben, Great News... thank you for continuing to update!!!  It's really important to see the follow through.  So happy to hear your path is smooth.   Thank you for allowing us to walk with you as you continue forward…     In Friendship ~ Lee & Buddy P.S. You know what's coming next!!! 
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bluebird
Veteran Member
Joined : May 2006
Posts : 2543
Posted 7/10/2007 2:32 PM (GMT -8)
    Yea !   ~   Ben , 2nd   ~~~PSA…    !!! ~~~ >>>   Woo ~ Hoo   <<< ~~~ !!! Undetectable Cause   for    celebration!!!!!   Definitely!!!       What a wonderful day it is ~ each and every-day ….     Enjoy it to the fullest.   Yippeeeee!!!!!! From   Lee & Buddy *      *      *       *      *      * The ultimate “goal”… we all strive for… Thank you for sharing ~ that your goal has been met…. It is very important to “all ”of us!   This is a way of positive feedback… A way of showing others Hope… and a way of Sharing.    J   Caring is Sharing ~   Thank You for Sharing   J       Other threads started by: Ben *HIFU (direct links ~ just click on the title!   Reminder to click on the REFRESH  icon once there) HIFU    
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Dutch
Regular Member
Joined : Feb 2007
Posts : 400
Posted 7/10/2007 2:33 PM (GMT -8)

That is GREAT news - congrats.   Will be interested in watching for any approval by our govt for this procedure.

Dutch

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jetguy
Veteran Member
Joined : Sep 2006
Posts : 750
Posted 7/10/2007 4:22 PM (GMT -8)
Way to go HIFU! Keep us the good work and keep us informed.

Regards,

Bill
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rek3283
Regular Member
Joined : Jun 2007
Posts : 21
Posted 7/11/2007 7:21 AM (GMT -8)
An interesting exchange.

I was hoping to get in the Sonoblat clinical trial my urologist is now participating in.  I postponed any treatment after getting the positive biopsy in November, 2006.  (One 2 mm sample out of 44 sticks).  Due to the small size and slow growth of the malignancy, Dr. Barnett said waiting wouldn't be a problem.

Unfortunately, the pathologists for the Sonoblat company didn't agree with the three pathologists in Nashville.  The Nashville guys said the Gleason was 3+3=6.  The company men said it was 3+4=7.  My Internist at Vanderbilt made the observation that clinical trials only want successes, and patients at the margins are always ruled out.

Like HIFU, after doing all the research on HIFU, we gave some thought to going to either Canada or England for the Sonoblat.  After further discussions with Dr. B, my internist, and the RadOnc, I decided to go with the brachytherapy because the tumor is so small, localized, and slow growing.

I think it's really important for everyone here to keep in mind that all the individuals on the board are at different places in their lives and in their disease.  That's why we have treatment choices.  Everyone just makes the most informed decision based on where they are and what they have to look forward to.

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HIFU
Regular Member
Joined : Feb 2007
Posts : 27
Posted 7/11/2007 10:20 AM (GMT -8)
you are absolutely right.

So many choices, so many opinions, so many situations.

Best of Luck

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belindafeathers
Regular Member
Joined : Aug 2006
Posts : 21
Posted 1/24/2008 1:59 PM (GMT -8)
I am at work and have been on this site about an hour now reading about this HIFU but I still don't know exactly what it is or what is done. Since this PCa thing is new to me also - I have just begun to dig into more options for my husband, will you explain this to me? Is it just for early stage PCa because my husband is in advanced stage. Forgive me for being so stupid on this subject. Thank you.
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HIFU
Regular Member
Joined : Feb 2007
Posts : 27
Posted 1/24/2008 2:49 PM (GMT -8)
I found a link to trh Prostate Cancer Research Institute :

http://prostate-cancer.org/education/novelthr/Chinn_TransrectalHIFU.html

I think it will provide you with alot of information

Regarding your question regarding if the treatment is for advanced situations, I think it's all relative.

What I did after selecting who and where to try to get more information, was I contacted Prof. Chasussy's office in Munich and sent them all my clinical records. After that they told me that I was a good candidate for the Hifu and all relevant info, and I had it done within a few days.

I recently posted an update with my last PSA in January that is 0.05 same as before without any side effects, and my local Urologist scheduled my next visit in 6 months.

 

Good Luck

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mathew j
New Member
Joined : Mar 2009
Posts : 7
Posted 3/16/2009 9:08 AM (GMT -8)
Here is a HIFU case not like the brochures!

I live in Montreal Canada and was able to have the Sonablate HIFU proceedure walking distance from my home (Oct 25th, 2008).

My PSA rose gradually over a period of 8yrs from 4 to 9.5. During that time, I was reluctant to do a biopsy and opted for watchful waiting. Oct 8th 2008, I did a Power Doppler 3D non invasive ultrasound that detects blood flow in the prostate. Findings showed high activity that indicated presence of cancerous tumors in the prostate and possible invasion to the seminal vessels. An mri performed the same day showed capsule containment and no external invasion other than the seminals.

After extensive research and coming to terms with the situation, I chose HIFU for all the reasons discussed in this forum.

Most surgeons in Canada will not do the proceedure without a biopsy so my choice was to go outside the country or do a biopsy and get my treatment close to home. I chose close to home, had the biopsy (Gleason 3+3=6, 4 cores out of 12) and HIFU 6 days later. My surgeon assured me that having HIFU such a short period after a biopsy posed no problems as the prostate would be destroyed during the proceedure.  

The HIFU itself was uneventful..no post pain, some discomfort sitting (on a tennis ball) and some swelling.

After 2 weeks draining from a catheter, I began voiding through the urethra by clipping the catheter shut and trying to pee normally.

At first very slow and with burning, voiding gradually improved and the catheter was removed on week three.

At that time a urinary track infection developed that took 7 weeks and 5 antibiotic treatments to cure. During this period, the urinary stream became very weak (down to a trickle) and voiding was not complete..urine remained in the bladder and probably helped the bacteria survive the antibiotics for so long.

By December, voiding was very painful, forced and extremely slow culminating on Dec 25th at 12pm, when I blocked completely.

After 3 hours of painful pushing and attempting to urinate, a piece (presumably prostate) the size of half a walnut came out, followed by a gush of urine and immediate emptying. During the following 3days, flow was as strong as I ever remember then a week later the same thing happened again, stream down to nil, blocking, and another piece the same size.

Although I had not experienced incontinence till then, after the first piece came out, I became incontinent (2 months after HIFU).

I have been completely dry at night and sleep through 8 hours, also dry when sitting down. When I get up I start dripping and need to rush to the bathroom. Dripping is continuous with walking, standing and physical activity like tennis etc. I go through 2 to 3 pads per day..by the way, am 64, in great shape and very active with no previous problems prior to this. 

We are now March 16th, 5 months after the proceedure, 3 months after the pieces came out, improvement has been minimal but better in the morning when I can come out of bed with a full bladder (550ml) and walk around dry for a f10 or so minutes before dripping.

During the day I am able to retain some urine so bladder fill faster than I dribble. Although my stream was very strong after the pieces came out, it gradually weakened back to the present slow trickle with some interior burning discomfort.

My doctors involved say some cases in HIFU can be like mine and I probably have some scarring, blockage as well as a weak sphinter (I do my kiegles every day). They advised waiting 6 months till I heal before doing a cyctoscopy to have a look-see(end of April). One Doctor says I may need a sling. 

I have spoken with HIFU head office on many occasions and they have told me infections are very rare, and large pieces like mine are undocumented in all their HIFU cases. The prostate is supposed to shrivel over several months and pass through as small pieces and brown sludge...not my case. The good news..PSA=0 at 3 months.

Well, this is my story..I wanted to share it as many men are looking at the HIFU option... there is so little written about it as it is new in North America.. 

open to any comments, hope this will help some

 

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mathew j
New Member
Joined : Mar 2009
Posts : 7
Posted 5/4/2009 10:12 AM (GMT -8)
Last psa=0 (one and only 3 months after HFU). Have not seen my doctor yet, apt may 26th will have next psa results then. No change from my last post: am completely dry at nite (sleep through 8hrs) and dry sitting, but incontinence 2-3 pads per day when standing depending on activity level and how much water I drink. Stream is very slow and requires effort to void completely. No pain, no symptoms, no infection, no meds. Besides the inconvenience of dripping, I have resumed  my full activities..tennis, swimming, all the things I did before. No ED. I will probably have a cysto in may or early june for a look-see, suspect I will need a TURP. Interesting discovery..if I apply pressure with my hand between the rectum and scrotum while walking, I dont leak.

I dont know anyone who has had HIFU but read many posts on different sites and found that my problem with the incontinence and the very large pieces of prostate that I painfully urinated after weeks of painful straining is very rare. Problems are usualy strictures and blockage requiring repeat catherizations/turps, and recurring elevated psa's.

These problems occured most often with Abatherm as I think it is not as precise as Sonablate. Most Sonablate patients I have read about had few or no side effects after treatment especially those done by Dr Scionti himself (one of the founders of Sonablate).

My situation may be the result of having a biopsy too close to Hifu (5days before). Possibly the 12 needles serrated the prostate, caused the 6wk infection and loosened the 2 large pieces (possibly all of it) that finally came out 2 months after Hifu.

I suspect my forcing to expel the pieces may have herniated or damaged my sphincter. I am not a doctor but eventually will get the answers & will post them here.

If anyone has any insights feel free to comment, thanks

Mathewj Thomas 

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Tony Crispino
Veteran Member
Joined : Dec 2006
Posts : 8160
Posted 5/4/2009 10:45 AM (GMT -8)
Matthew,
Thank you for the post. Certainly there is going to be a growing market for HIFU in the US. It is my hope that it produces good long term results and there are proper expectations. Many times over I have read about a "new" treatment only to see it has not improved anything over the long term. We have a twenty year disease. Any ten year studies are weak at best ~ especially at my age. Sonablate and Ablatherm are still too young to give us enough data. But they are both looking superior to cryo in studies at this time. I really have concern over people coming here and saying a new treatment is a cure or has no side effects without experience nor accurate data . This is not factual boasting and unfortunately you are not the first I have met that did not get the great procedural results with HIFU as touted in the websites and brochures. Still, this may work well for you in the long term and it may for many others. This I do hope for. And I should mention I have met guys that have done well with HIFU including Ben.

Peace to you, and thank you for the posts. We need real information to make real decisions, and your case is eye opening for anyone looking at this form of treatment. Keep those PSA's low. That is the ultimate goal.

Tony
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mathew j
New Member
Joined : Mar 2009
Posts : 7
Posted 5/27/2009 10:54 AM (GMT -8)

Glad it went well for you.

I did all the things I was supposed to, and yes, drank all that water. I, like you also had the supra pubic catheter and not the foley. When I clamped after a week I was able to urinate very slowly and was NOT incontinent. I developed a uti the 3rd week that lasted 7-8wks and did not become incontinent until 2 months after the procedure when I developed blockage from 2 VERY large pieces of prostate. A week of torture went by till I finally passed them 3 days apart. Only then did my infection go away! After that, my stream became very strong but I lost control in all situations except sitting & sleeping (still dry). I am not a doctor, but I suspect the forcing & straining to flush the pieces may have stretched or herniated the sphincter or pelvic muscles. Stream is now slow again and I am still incontinent 5 months after the "flush". I am seing my Dr this week and would hope tests are coming to diagnose this problem. If I have any advice it's to try and not force if large pieces block..better to get a cysto and have a look, try to unblock or gently remove.  Hope this will help someone out there...

Good luck! Mathew j

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KeyWestPirate
Regular Member
Joined : May 2009
Posts : 60
Posted 5/27/2009 12:55 PM (GMT -8)
HIFU was my first choice and there were several opportunities to get into a trial when I was diagnosed  (summer of 2008).  Unfortunately, my prostate was too large.  The trial sites were cherry picking subjects, but that is understandable.  HIFU willl never work for every PCa , nor was it intended to.

 

For a low number Gleason, low number PSA, in a small prostate, HIFU does seem to offer an excellent solution with minimal side effects.  There WILL be a learning curve, just as there has been for every treatment option.  And there will be those providers who obtain far superior results for their patients than others, as is the case with the other treatment options.  The exception to this last sentence might be hormone therapy:  How can you screw up a Lupron shot??

 

I suppose all we can ask for is to be given an honest choice in treatment options, which is probablly not happening for many men right now.  PC is a big business, and treatment providers are going to naturally want to protect their investments.  After being provided with the choices, it is incumbent on us to find the best provider for that option.  Surgeons, in particular, vary greatly in their skills, and this is a complex surgery.

 

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30888849    provides an interesting read.

 

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hb2006
Regular Member
Joined : Nov 2008
Posts : 299
Posted 5/27/2009 1:13 PM (GMT -8)

HIFU was not an option for me either. I was diagnosed too late and my urologist was extremely worried that the cancer had already escaped. I lucked out in that it had not and was completely dry at 8 weeks after surgery.

My noctural erections have returned completely and I use the ED meds now, which is no different than prior to the surgery. Hypertension medication was giving me ED prior to the prostate cancer. I continue to refill the Trimix however, as I like those two hour erections....

My impression is that if you have a great surgeon (former chief of surgery), the results are as good as robotic or HIFU and a lot cheaper. My copays/co-insurance totalled $1,500.  

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hb2006
Regular Member
Joined : Nov 2008
Posts : 299
Posted 6/8/2009 5:14 AM (GMT -8)

Gooog

Glad that it worked out for you. Due to my situation, I never would have been a candidate along with lots of the other guys on here. So you do what you have to do.

I will continue to promote open surgery with a really skilled surgeon.

After using the injections for awhile, I am really glad that I was exposed to the process. I doubt that I will ever give them up. My SO doesn't want me to either.

My impression is that HIFU is for a select population of guys, will probably never be a main stream option.

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hb2006
Regular Member
Joined : Nov 2008
Posts : 299
Posted 6/10/2009 9:20 AM (GMT -8)

Ok, but here's the reality. The FDA probably won't approve this for another five years. Then the health plans will probably call it experimental for another 10 years. Or if they do approve it as a covered benefit, it will have high co-insurance and/or deductibles.

I have worked for health plans for over 20 years. I just don't see HIFU as ever getting as popular as surgery or radiation treatments. You have too many vested interests in the existing treatments. Just think about all the other non-mainstream treatments that are out there.

After reading about the HIFU Incontince Horror Story, I don't think I would have ever tried it. And I can easily afford it, but the possibility of being on the Depends for the rest of my life would have stopped me right away.  

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offpsa
New Member
Joined : Jun 2009
Posts : 15
Posted 6/10/2009 10:29 AM (GMT -8)
hb,
what incontinence horror story??
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hb2006
Regular Member
Joined : Nov 2008
Posts : 299
Posted 6/10/2009 10:52 AM (GMT -8)
offpsa

Read Mathew J's posts below. There are others if you do some searching. I know his case is not a common occurence from HIFU but when you think about the mechanics of HIFU treatment, it's not reassuring. Passing all that tissue out through your bladder is not something that I would do.

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fogball
Regular Member
Joined : Mar 2006
Posts : 31
Posted 6/10/2009 8:53 PM (GMT -8)
 

    Here is something you you can take for what it's worth!

   

    http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stories/2009/04/13/story13.html

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hb2006
Regular Member
Joined : Nov 2008
Posts : 299
Posted 6/13/2009 7:57 PM (GMT -8)
Gooog

You can't convince me that it's something that I would be happy with. You are happy with it, so that's fine. I prefered surgery, knowing that everything was removed and that the surgeon could see what was going on.

As for the post, there's other ones out in the media about the da vinci system. And that company making $100 million a year off the robotic surgery, etc. I expect that HIFU will be approved some year by the FDA but it will take a long time to catch up to the other treatments.

Which is as it should be, men will continue to have a lot of treatment options. And depending on their Gleason scores, biopsie results, family history of PC, etc., they can decide on what they want to do. Isn't that the American Way?

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