Prostate cancer studies don't agree

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lifeguyd
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 664
   Posted 5/15/2007 8:49 PM (GMT -7)   
Who do you believe?
 
I just read on- line that the National Cancer Institute will release a study tomorrow that claims that men in their study who regularly took Vitamins had a greater chance of being diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer and had a greater chance of early death.
 
BUT
 
In a study in 1998 the NCI published a study that concluded that men who took vitamin E had less chance of being diagnosed with prostate cancer and if they did it was less likely to be advanced.
 
Who do you believe?
 
Biopsy 10/16/06
T2A,  PSA 4.7
Gleason 4+4=8 right side
adrenocarcinoma of prostate
DaVinci Surgery 01/16/07
Post op report,confirms Gleason4+4=8
no extra extension/invasion identified
age 65
Back on the golf course...
90 day PSA  less than 0.01 (undetectable)
 
 


PianoMan
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 365
   Posted 5/15/2007 11:28 PM (GMT -7)   
Hi lifeguyd:  I don't know who to believe, but since hearing this news, I'm glad I didn't take a daily multiple all my life.  And I think I'll avoid vitamin E as well, since the medical community seems to change its mind on a regular basis.
 
Anyone who has taken a Statistics course will know how whacky the results of any survey or study can be presented.  It sounds like these researchers took a sample base of PCa patients somewhere and came up with their results -- neither of them earth-shattering revelations, in my opinion.
 
I don't do a lot of research on PCa these days, but from my brief, past experience I know that researchers are grabbing at straws, in terms of trying to find a commonality relating to PCa, aside from, age, heredity and race.  Eating animal fats, being exposed to radiation, etc. also play into it, they say, but that's pretty weak too, in my opinion.  Those are predetermining factors for a bunch of other cancers as well.
 
They say if you're going to have cancer, prostate cancer is one of the better ones to deal with, which is true.  In my case, I'm glad PCa is not related to any of the vices I've had in my life, such as smoking and drinking.  At least I don't have to deal with guilt in this journey.
Good thread.  Thanks for posting it.
Tom


54 years old

PSA = First ever was 9.8 in late Oct. ‘06, two weeks later, 10.1

DRE: Negative

Biopsy results 11/22/06 (6 out of 8 cores positive), both lobes, Gleason 3+3 = 6

Da Vinci Robotic RP surgery, City of Hope, Jan 12, 2007

Post surgery pathology – Organ confined, Gleason still 6, margins clear.

First post-surgery PSA -- Undetectable, 2/20/07


Swimom
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2006
Total Posts : 1732
   Posted 5/16/2007 6:40 AM (GMT -7)   
The study reads TOO many vitimans if I read it right. Guess the questions I have are:

What ='s too many and at what supplement doses have these measures been based on? In order to know, we'd have to measure the same doses both in the normal and excessive range for both groups.

These patients would have to have been measured for the same length of time and.......be using the same or higher doses in the excessive arm minimally and a normal amount to lesser dose in the other arm. A same dose trial in both arms would provide the most consistant information probably.

Subjects would have to be using the same group/combination of the same "brand" of vitimans for the duration of the trial and be taking them at the same time of day since our rates of absorbsion does vary throughout the day depending on intake of food/liquids. There are too many variables here.

IMHO...the study is too flawed to give it much merit. I suppose the take home message would be: Like most things in life....too much of a good thing can be dangerous....but we already knew this!

mozart250
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 102
   Posted 5/16/2007 6:42 AM (GMT -7)   
Hi
Here is a link to an article I found.
 
Now I am confused, as I remember previously of reading that Selenium helps the fight against prostate cancer.
 
I guess the key is moderation.  I guess I should also cut back the number of times I take my vitamins.
51 Year Old DBA by profession; amateur pianist by passion.
 
June 2006:  PSA 4.6.  DRE prostate enlarged.  
Aug  2006:  Second opinion confirms first.  Biopsy suggested.
Sep  2006:  Biopsy results positive one lobe.  Gleason 3+3.
Nov  2006:  RPA performed at Fletcher Allen in Burlington VT.
Nov  2006:  Pathology report: Stage T3a and Gleason 3+4.
Dec  2006:  PSA 0.1
Feb  2007:  PSA 0.0


stkitt
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 32602
   Posted 5/16/2007 7:38 AM (GMT -7)   

Good Morning lifeguyd,

Number fetishism leads usability studies astray by focusing on statistical analyses that are often false, biased, misleading, or overly narrow. Better to emphasize insights and qualitative research. VIEW IMAGE
 
Who to believe, all and none is my answer?  You must read the info and decided if you believe it or if is skewed somehow.
 
Guilt is a wasted emotion,  you are not responsible for your prostate cancer, it was not your fault so don't beat yourselves up over what you may have done wrong. Love yourself as we all care for you.
 
Spend you energry on your battle and know that you are with friends.  Discussing all of these articles is  good but please keep them in perspective.
 
Enjoy the beauty of each day and when your feeling down, it is okay, your normal.
 
When you need a hand to hold, reach out.  We are all here.
 
Gentle Hugs

Respectfully

Kitt

Moderator Prostate Cancer

Depression 25 years, Husband Crohns Disease 30 years

My Father and his 5 siblings all died of Cancer.
______________________________________________________
"If you doubt you can accomplish something, then you can’t accomplish it. You have to have confidence in your ability, and then be tough enough to follow through.”

~Rosalyn Carter


lifeguyd
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 664
   Posted 5/16/2007 8:59 AM (GMT -7)   

Thanks for your response

The reason I posted this information regarding studies, is that young men will read this and be confused by the headlines.  The media tends to over dramatize everything (Fox News is a good example of deceitful and overhyped reporting).  When a study like this is released the media should just factually report it.  Instead I saw a headline that said something like "Popping vitamins causes prostate cancer death".  We know that is not true, but the less informed will react as if they have been told a new truth.

The two studies I mentioned are interesting, in that they somwhat contradict each other.  They also deal with food supplement issues that we all face.  It would be nice to be able to tell our children that certain things are "good" or ""bad" for them from a health viewpoint. I gets harder all of the time.  Oh well, I guess there are more important things for to worry about.lol yeah


stkitt
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 32602
   Posted 5/16/2007 9:17 AM (GMT -7)   

Dear lifguyd,

You brought to the front today a very valid topic, it is hard to know what to tell our children as we have trouble deciding and discussion is good for the soul.

I was very happy to see your subject material.

Gentle Hugs


Respectfully

Kitt

Moderator Prostate Cancer

Depression 25 years, Husband Crohns Disease 30 years

My Father and his 5 siblings all died of Cancer.
______________________________________________________
"If you doubt you can accomplish something, then you can’t accomplish it. You have to have confidence in your ability, and then be tough enough to follow through.”

~Rosalyn Carter


Izzyblizzy
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 411
   Posted 5/17/2007 3:12 PM (GMT -7)   
do you have a link to the study?

i was going say that i think that men with high psa's will try supplements, and therefore just the fact that they are doing lots of supplements before an actual diagnosis skews the study. It may be that the supplements are just "tried" but it still ends up that the diagnosis is cancer. I don't think that proves "vitamins" cause cancer. I may think it means, someone has cancer, they try lots of supplements, they get a final diagnosis.

But i should read the study first. :) cause not sure how long they took supplements, did they do it before a high PSA, biopsy etc.? or after?
Age: 63
Diagnosed: 10/30/06
PSA: 3.7 (2005: 3.4, 2004: 4.0)
Biopsy: 1/10 cancerous, 5% of one core, right apex.
Gleason: 3+3=6
Da Vinci: April 10, 2007, Denver CO
Path results: 1% of prostate involved. Very small tumors on both right and left apex. Negative margins, negative seminal vessicles, lymph nodes left intact. Gleason upgraded 3+4=7.
1st PSA Results: May 11, 2007 <.01
 


stkitt
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 32602
   Posted 5/17/2007 4:50 PM (GMT -7)   

Izzy,

That makes very good sense re taking the vitamins as I find it hard to bleieve that the vitamins cause cancer but that is my opinion and I am always willing to look at new evidence.

Cancer is any malignant growth or tumor caused by abnormal and uncontrolled cell division; it may spread to other parts of the body through the lymphatic system or the blood stream.

I would be interested in reading the article too.


Respectfully
Kitt

Moderator Prostate Cancer

Depression 25 years, Husband Crohns Disease 30 years
My Father and his 5 siblings all died of Cancer.
______________________________________________________
"If you doubt you can accomplish something, then you can’t accomplish it. You have to have confidence in your ability, and then be tough enough to follow through.” 
~Rosalyn Carter


lifeguyd
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 664
   Posted 5/18/2007 3:43 PM (GMT -7)   

 

Hi Friends smurf

Actually, I was less concerned with the results of the studies than HOW THEY WERE REPORTED IN THE media.

In the most recent study, even the researchers were scratching their heads and saying that it didn't mean what it said. That is, vitamin use probably was not a causitive factor, despite the statistical conclusion.

I was responding because the media (once again) did not get it right. nono  They resorted to headlines that had nothing to do with the real truth.


 
Biopsy 10/16/06
T2A,  PSA 4.7
Gleason 4+4=8 right side
adrenocarcinoma of prostate
DaVinci Surgery 01/16/07
Post op report,confirms Gleason4+4=8
no extra extension/invasion identified
age 65
Back on the golf course...
90 day PSA  less than 0.01 (undetectable)
 
 


stkitt
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 32602
   Posted 5/18/2007 3:47 PM (GMT -7)   
:-)  Hey, thanks for the explanation. 
 
Keep posting.
 
Respectfully
Kitt

Moderator Prostate Cancer

Depression 25 years, Husband Crohns Disease 30 years
My Father and his 5 siblings all died of Cancer.
______________________________________________________
"If you doubt you can accomplish something, then you can’t accomplish it. You have to have confidence in your ability, and then be tough enough to follow through.” 
~Rosalyn Carter


myman
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2007
Total Posts : 1219
   Posted 5/18/2007 5:18 PM (GMT -7)   
Hi lifegyd,

I'm with you - in a rush to report anything, the media reports everything. I also question the sources of the information. We've all seen the countless quoted studies, papers published and incomplete clinical trials over the past few years and what's the result?

1. Drug companies getting richer as we rush out to get the latest, greatest thing that will heal us.
2. The promotion of certain foods (ie. pomegranate is a great example) in whatever form - be it juice, food, pill. And of course, the cost then skyrockets for those items.
3. Equipment that doctors buy and charge exhorbitant prices to their "customers" to pay for these items.
4. A confused public, grasping at almost anything to cure or at least stave off whatever disease they are dealing with.

I mean no criticism to anyone who tries whatever they are comfortable with, please understand what I'm saying. We all are suseptible when dealing with anything that threatens us or those whom we love. I deeply appreciate the doctors and other health care advocates who have helped us, all of us.

But when hope is given falsely, whether by the media, a doctor, a company or some sort of charlatan THAT is just not right. Grandma would've called it immoral.

Sigh...Okay, I just ran out of steam... I guess at times I just feel captive to the all those "professionals" out there and it frustrates me.

Oh yeah...a confession: I make sure my man has some pomegranate juice in his smoothie every day!!!

Susan (I do acknowledge this in only my opinion. devil )
Husband Diagnosed 11/17/05 Age: 63 No Symptoms
PSA: 7.96, Positive DRE
Biopsy Right: 6 of 6 Cores Positive Biopsy Left: 1 of 6 Cores Positive
Gleason: 4+3 = 7 Stage: T2B N0 MX
2/09/06: LRP Restage: T3A NX MX
3 mo. PSA Post Surgery: 11.8, 12.9, 13.9 Bone scan, CT scan, Endorectal MRI, Chest XR - neg.
9/06/06: 6 mo. PSA: 18.8 CT shows distant lymph node involvement Start HT Lupron 3 mo. shots
12/06/06: PSA 0.8
03/07/07 - PSA 0.3


stkitt
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 32602
   Posted 5/18/2007 5:26 PM (GMT -7)   

Hey Susan,

I agree with you completely as I am one of those consumers that will fall for the magic of the media.

A Dark Chocolate a Day Keeps the Doctor Away

My hubby has Crohn's but I am going to protect his heart too.........so I buy, the candy companies are booming and he darn well better share the chocolate with me.  yeah
 
Smiles
Respectfully
Kitt

Moderator Prostate Cancer

Depression 25 years, Husband Crohns Disease 30 years
My Father and his 5 siblings all died of Cancer.
______________________________________________________
"If you doubt you can accomplish something, then you can’t accomplish it. You have to have confidence in your ability, and then be tough enough to follow through.” 
~Rosalyn Carter


pcdave
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 444
   Posted 5/18/2007 5:41 PM (GMT -7)   
Hi Lifeguyd

In recent years I have been taking a normal daily dose of a multi-vitamin for men. At one time, my doctor had specifically told me to take vitamin E because it is good for the heart. Then subsequent studies indicated that Vitamin E was not that beneficial for the heart, so he suggested that it was not necessary for me to continuer taking it. However, vitamin E is included in my multi-vitamin and I believe iit is beneficial overall. Over the years, what I have read about vitamins has often been conflicting. I think the bottom line is not to take large doses of any vitamin, which I have read might be detrimental to your health. It is also important to eat a very balanced diet with heavy emphasis and fresh fruits and vegetables, seafood (with emphasis on Omega 3 fish oil) and limit the amount of red meat, etc.

Let me give you another example. For years I have been taking Glucosamine Chondroitin to maintain good cartilage in my knees. When being treated for PCa I read an article which indicated that Chondroitin Sulfate can contribute to the growth of PCa in PCa patients. Refer to: http://www.prostateforum.com/info-chondroitin.htm  I asked my radiation oncologist about this and he tended to dismiss it. Quite frankly, I am afraid to continue taking it. However, the article does indcate that Glucosamine without the Chondroitin Sulfate would be safe to take. I think this just points out the conflicting dilemma in taking any kind of pills, including vitamins.

Dave


68, 29-core biopsy 9/27/06, PSA 7.1, Stage T1c, Gleason 7 (3+4) [less than 20% in one area],  Gleason 6 [less than 5% in two other areas], negative DRE, bone scan and Endorectal MRI. Completed 39 Proton radiation treatments 2/22/07-4/18/07.
First PSA test to be taken 7/07.

Post Edited (pcdave) : 5/19/2007 12:14:30 PM (GMT-6)


El Tigre
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 58
   Posted 5/20/2007 12:46 AM (GMT -7)   
Like Grandma said.... everything in moderation, don't believe everything you hear, people who spend a lot of time on their own opinions usually miss the truth in others, question everything.
I sure do wish I had found this site pre-surgery!! RRP 10/25/05 I don't remember all the scores. Have had clean checks ever since. Never had to use the pads!!


Cedar Chopper
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 432
   Posted 5/21/2007 3:17 AM (GMT -7)   

Tigger,

I like what your Abuella said! 

Like Dave, I'm a big fan of (of course fruits & vegetables....and) Omega-3.  I use cold-pressed flax oil and cold-milled flax seed.  The omega oil in flax is transformed in the body to usable omega-3 at a 10% rate.  Keep in mind, when flax oil is heated, it transforms into linseed oil.  This is unusable by the body, and it is likely toxic in large quantities.....  Cooking with flax is NOT recommended.  At first I mixed it with picante and added a little olive oil to mask the flavor.  Now, I actually like the flavor.  Just adding the cold-milled seeds to yogurt or cereal is probably easier and cheaper.  I think both Vitamin E & Omega-3 oil is good for the skin, in addition to the other studied/purported benefits.  (I'd really like to hear Swimming Paul comment on this!) 

I just spent the weekend with 6 adults and 20 kids at church camp.  In week 14, I didn't go on the zip line. However, I did use the diving board.
 
I'm keeping all of you in my "special request" prayer life.  Good Healing!
 
CCedar
~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*~~*
2 Years of PSA between 4 and 5.5
Biopsy 23DEC06 
Only 5 percent cancer in one of 8 samples.
Gleeson 3+3=6
Radical Prostatectomy 16FEB07 at age 54.
1+" tumor - touching inside edge of gland.
Confined:)
***************
Texas Hill Country
FRESH Produce Department Manager
Have you had your 5 colors today?

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