Possible negative about the spinach / sunflower seed diet?

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mbx5
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Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 365
   Posted 2/27/2009 5:25 PM (GMT -6)   
I have been on this diet for a few months....working great!!! Well, one thing I didnt consider, and it may or may not affect other people - I am prone to getting kidney stones. I have read that spinach raise oxilate levels in the urine and can potentially cause a certain type of stone... I am not sure of the sunflower seeds as of yet, but the high levels of salt can be bad (in my case I was eating an entire pack of Davids shelled seeds per day)...higher sodium isnt good.

Here is my deal - I went to the ER last night - substantial amounts of blood in my urine... Pretty scary stuff because I didnt have the typical pain in my side associate w/ a kidney stone. They did a C/T and found multiple stones in both kidneys....YAAAY....

I will be going to a urologist next week to see what to do about it.... I am wondering if my "abuse" of spinach and sunflower seeds has contributed? I also take a lot of flax oil and fish oil - I read that excess animal protein can lead to stone production for people who are prone to stones....

My info was taken from here:
http://www.gicare.com/Diets/Kidney-Stone.aspx


FYI... not to be an alarmist, but it could be worth looking into....
34 yr old male. UC for 14 years. Started left-sided, most recent scope shows pancolitis. 30mg pred (as of 2/01/09), 12 pills Asacol per day, 1mg Atavan per day (anxiety) when needed, Super-omega fish oil pills - 1x per day, Flax oil pills - 1x am, 1x pm, Culturelle probiotics - 2x am, 1x pm, Spinach and sunflower seed diet. Multivitamin. Recent Endonasal brain surgery to remove non-cancerous hormone producing tumor on pituitary gland (and I am still more afraid of my UC!!) "I poop in the woods because I can"


Eva Lou
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Date Joined Sep 2006
Total Posts : 3442
   Posted 2/27/2009 5:39 PM (GMT -6)   
I don't mean to laugh, but that phrase, "my "abuse" of spinach & sunflower seeds" has got to be one of the funniest things I've read on here in a long time!!! Sorry about your stones- it does seem that there would be a correlation. I too have heard that oxilate can cause stones.... go figure, what helps one man is another's curse! Hope the urologist can help ASAP.

diagnosed with UC '02
meds-
Asacol- 8 tabs/day
Remicade-10mgs/kg- since 4/07
Imuran- 150mgs/day
Culturelle
Fiber supplement
 
 
 


subdued
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Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 3231
   Posted 2/27/2009 5:45 PM (GMT -6)   
Anything in excess can be bad, even water. There have been cases of people dying due to drinking too much water. The most common cases are drinking too much water during drinking competitions and during intense exercise.
Joy - 47 yrs and counting
Diagnosed w/ UC Dec 06 (also have IBS)
Currently in remission

Lexapro (for stress)
Probiotics and Vitamins (a whole bunch of them)
Anti-inflammatory foods: turmeric, seaweed, garlic...
Avoid: anything with high-fructose corn syrup, foods high in fructose, artificial sweeteners
Previous treatments: Fecal transplantation (worked), Prednisone (stopped working), Colazal (stopped working), Asacol (stopped working)


quincy
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Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 30614
   Posted 2/27/2009 5:48 PM (GMT -6)   
Of course it's related......I mentioned that in one of the threads...poo-poo'd by the originator of the diet.

Experience is the best teacher.
 
Hope you feel better soon.
 
Moderation is definitely a good thing...
 
q


*Heather* Status..Asacol  (3 x2 daily); flaring /Dec 22, tapered to every 3rd nite
~diagnosed January 1989 UC (proctosigmoiditis)
~Bentylol (dicyclomine) 20mg as needed; Ranitidine (reflux);  Effexor XR 75mg(depression);  Pulmicort/Airomir (asthma) 
~vitamins/minerals/supplementsProbiotics....(Natural Factors Protec, Primadophilus Reuteri Pearls, Natural Factors Ultimate). @ bedtime
~various digestive enzymes as needed; started Omega 3 
~URSO for PSC (or PBC) 500mg X 2 daily (LFTs back to NORMAL!!)
My doc's logic.. "TREAT (FROM)BOTH ENDS"  worth it !!!
 


basa0806
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Date Joined Feb 2005
Total Posts : 2103
   Posted 2/27/2009 5:51 PM (GMT -6)   
I've heard that UC suffers are prone to kidney stones anyway so maybe your susceptibility, the spinach and UC all played a factor?
Sam(antha)
20 year old college student diagnosed with ulcerative colitis at 16
Remission since January/April 2006
400mg Asacol 2x, 10mg Elavil, 75mg Effexor XR for GAD

"Life is what happens when you are busy making other plans"
John Lennon


Cfromutah
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 369
   Posted 2/27/2009 6:01 PM (GMT -6)   
If you cant eat the spinach then eat  other high beta carotene foods in place of the spinach such as carrots and continue to eat sunflower seeds and the pumpkin seeds that you were eating for magnesium. I can stay in remission with no spinach as long as I have beta carotene in my diet and sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds etc. for magnesium. I know its the beta carotene and magnesium that's in the spinach that helps because I can substitute other foods with those nutrients and stay in remission but if I remove those nutrients from my diet symptoms return. There are a couple other nutrients in the sunflower seeds that may be beneficial in making the diet work that Im not sure about yet so don't stop eating the seeds but I know you can get by with eating carrots, sunflower seeds and pumpkin seeds in place of spinach. Carrots contain no magnesium and spinach does so if you eliminate the spinach you may need to bump up your intake of other high mag foods a little to compensate for the loss of magnesium from not eating spinach.
It is rare for people to be susceptible to getting kidney stones from oxalic acid in the diet but there are some that are. Most people don't have to worry about getting kidney stones from spinach.

Post Edited (Cfromutah) : 2/27/2009 5:12:34 PM (GMT-7)


Eva Lou
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Date Joined Sep 2006
Total Posts : 3442
   Posted 2/27/2009 6:09 PM (GMT -6)   
I don't know, CfrumUtah- I just read this "Calcium oxalate stones may also form in people who have chronic inflammation of the bowel or who have had an intestinal bypass operation, or ostomy surgery." on an informational site. And this-

"People prone to forming calcium oxalate stones may be asked by their doctor to limit or avoid certain foods if their urine contains an excess of oxalate.

High-oxalate foods—higher to lower

  • rhubarb
  • spinach
  • beets
  • swiss chard
  • wheat germ
  • soybean crackers
  • peanuts
  • okra
  • chocolate
  • black Indian tea
  • sweet potatoes "

So if you're prone to forming these stones due to UC/IBD, & you follow this diet, it appears you may in fact be putting yourself at risk for kidney stones. I'm sure it's a longshot, but if you're prone to forming these, you'd think you'd avoid foods high in oxalate. I feel badly for you, mbx5- never having had kidney stones, I don't know much about them. But they don't sound fun.

 
diagnosed with UC '02
meds-
Asacol- 8 tabs/day
Remicade-10mgs/kg- since 4/07
Imuran- 150mgs/day
Culturelle
Fiber supplement
 
 
 


mbx5
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 365
   Posted 2/27/2009 6:31 PM (GMT -6)   
I certainly dont want to discredit the diet - just posting my experiences that may or may not be related...I will find out more from my urologist visit. I certainly hope I can continue with the diet because I really love the sunflower seeds and the spinach too....Please also take note - I did not take these foods in moderation - I ate entire packages of sunflower seeds...lots and lots of salt in there.... Also the pumpkin seeds are loaded with salt.... one additional negative.... I am sure this stuff is available unsalted....I may switch to sunbutter in that case.....

I never really ate more than 1 brick of spinach a day, but I suppose 1 brick of spinach a day would constitue for a high oxalate food intake... i have a low calcium intake - so I am assuming my stones are more of an oxalaic acid type than calcium - but again I will not know until 1.) I pass a stone into a filter that can be analyzed, or 2.) further diagnosis can be done by my urologist....

Kidney stones suck...they are extremely painful, however this time I do not have the pain because they are not causing blockage - just bleeding.... I have had some very painful stones in the past...

I am a huge fan of this diet and it has helped many people - and trust me I hate to be the barer of bad news on this.... Those who may develop stones may have to take a 2nd look at the diet, or at least take it in more moderation....
34 yr old male. UC for 14 years. Started left-sided, most recent scope shows pancolitis. 30mg pred (as of 2/01/09), 12 pills Asacol per day, 1mg Atavan per day (anxiety) when needed, Super-omega fish oil pills - 1x per day, Flax oil pills - 1x am, 1x pm, Culturelle probiotics - 2x am, 1x pm, Spinach and sunflower seed diet. Multivitamin. Recent Endonasal brain surgery to remove non-cancerous hormone producing tumor on pituitary gland (and I am still more afraid of my UC!!) "I poop in the woods because I can"


Cfromutah
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 369
   Posted 2/27/2009 6:42 PM (GMT -6)   
just curios how you were cooking your spinach? boiling and draining the water reduces oxalic acid in spinach.

mbx5
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 365
   Posted 2/27/2009 7:29 PM (GMT -6)   
My spinach of choice is Green Giant - it comes in a brick and wrapped in microwavable plastic.... I usually cook it for about 5-6 minuts in the mic. Not sure if it is completely boiled or not?
34 yr old male. UC for 14 years. Started left-sided, most recent scope shows pancolitis. 30mg pred (as of 2/01/09), 12 pills Asacol per day, 1mg Atavan per day (anxiety) when needed, Super-omega fish oil pills - 1x per day, Flax oil pills - 1x am, 1x pm, Culturelle probiotics - 2x am, 1x pm, Spinach and sunflower seed diet. Multivitamin. Recent Endonasal brain surgery to remove non-cancerous hormone producing tumor on pituitary gland (and I am still more afraid of my UC!!) "I poop in the woods because I can"


Cfromutah
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 369
   Posted 2/27/2009 8:48 PM (GMT -6)   
I'm not sure about the amount of time that you mentioned you microwave it for but according to this info below that I pulled from the net it says microwaving for 40 seconds leaves 94% of the oxalic acid in spinach and boiling for one minute leaves only 62%.
Here's the result of the remaining amount of nutritional value measured after boiling and steaming, via microwave oven, and frying.

Boiling (1 minute): Oxalic acid = 62%; vitamin C = 46%
Steaming (1 minute): Oxalic acid = 96%; vitamin C = 70%
Microwave oven (700W 40 seconds): Oxalic acid = 94%; vitamin C = 49%
Frying (1 minute): Oxalic acid = 85%; vitamin C = 72%

pb4
Elite Member


Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 20577
   Posted 2/27/2009 10:40 PM (GMT -6)   
subdued said...
Anything in excess can be bad, even water. There have been cases of people dying due to drinking too much water. The most common cases are drinking too much water during drinking competitions and during intense exercise.

The only realistic way of dying from drinking too much water is like from back when it was on the news regarding those college kids that were drinking excessive amounts all at one time and they were actually drowning their organs from doing that, not from drinking too much water during intense exercise which would be almost impossible because you would start to lag during your workout...it's obviously important to drink water while exercising, it's obviously stupid to over-drink water as a frat prank and drown your organs and die.
 
My bum is broken....there's a big crack down the middle of it! LOL :)


VerM
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 101
   Posted 2/27/2009 11:21 PM (GMT -6)   
So canned spinach is better? I was using frozen bricks and drinking even the water I used to boil it, but no
Now after trying the canned I just eat it right out of the can as a side dish. I am eating bulk roasted seeds with no added salt, the unroasted unsalted taste like crap IMO. I am seeing results already about 15 days in. I'll take kidney stones and piss blood over crapping my pants any day LOL
I will not be passive.  I will fight until I win.  -VerM


quincy
Elite Member


Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 30614
   Posted 2/27/2009 11:45 PM (GMT -6)   
Cfromutah said...
Oh and quincy, you can be sooooo sure it was caused by the spinach huh? get real. Kidney stones are caused by all kinds of different things
Oh get over yourself already.....the context is the OP mentioned he's prone to kidney stones...
 
Experience is the teacher...oh, and research.
 
q
*Heather* Status..Asacol  (3 x2 daily); flaring /Dec 22, tapered to every 3rd nite
~diagnosed January 1989 UC (proctosigmoiditis)
~Bentylol (dicyclomine) 20mg as needed; Ranitidine (reflux);  Effexor XR 75mg(depression);  Pulmicort/Airomir (asthma) 
~vitamins/minerals/supplementsProbiotics....(Natural Factors Protec, Primadophilus Reuteri Pearls, Natural Factors Ultimate). @ bedtime
~various digestive enzymes as needed; started Omega 3 
~URSO for PSC (or PBC) 500mg X 2 daily (LFTs back to NORMAL!!)
My doc's logic.. "TREAT (FROM)BOTH ENDS"  worth it !!!
 


subdued
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 3231
   Posted 2/28/2009 12:54 AM (GMT -6)   
pb4 said...
subdued said...

Anything in excess can be bad, even water. There have been cases of people dying due to drinking too much water. The most common cases are drinking too much water during drinking competitions and during intense exercise.

The only realistic way of dying from drinking too much water is like from back when it was on the news regarding those college kids that were drinking excessive amounts all at one time and they were actually drowning their organs from doing that, not from drinking too much water during intense exercise which would be almost impossible because you would start to lag during your workout...it's obviously important to drink water while exercising, it's obviously stupid to over-drink water as a frat prank and drown your organs and die.


I was making a point that too much of anything isn't good. Of course, some things are easier to have too much of.

Anyway, it is possible to die from drinking too much water while exercising. In fact, medical personnel at marathon events are trained to immediately suspect water intoxication when runners collapse or show signs of confusion. Apparently, athletes sweat heavily, losing both water and electrolytes. Water intoxication and hyponatremia result when a dehydrated person drinks too much water without the accompanying electrolytes.
Joy - 47 yrs and counting
Diagnosed w/ UC Dec 06 (also have IBS)
Currently in remission

Lexapro (for stress)
Probiotics and Vitamins (a whole bunch of them)
Anti-inflammatory foods: turmeric, seaweed, garlic...
Avoid: anything with high-fructose corn syrup, foods high in fructose, artificial sweeteners
Previous treatments: Fecal transplantation (worked), Prednisone (stopped working), Colazal (stopped working), Asacol (stopped working)


Cfromutah
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 369
   Posted 2/28/2009 12:59 AM (GMT -6)   
Q,
The OP also stated in another thread that he has had kidney stones 4x since being diagnosed with UC. Were those related to spinach too before he started eating spinach regularly? Maybe the last one was related to increased oxalic acid intake but where he has had so many of them in the past I wouldn't be so sure of yourself.

mbx5
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 365
   Posted 2/28/2009 8:44 AM (GMT -6)   
True - I think I am prone to kidneystones regardless.....but I guess the point I was trying to make is that if someone is prone to getting them, there is a small chance that too much spinach and salt from seeds could agitate things....


Verminister - while the fear of public humiliation is a huge deal with me and my world of UC, the pain from a kidney stone is so freakin bad that it is worse.... I will put it to you this way - while experiencing the pain from a kidney stone, if I all I had to do was crap my pants to make it stop, I would crap my pants.
34 yr old male. UC for 14 years. Started left-sided, most recent scope shows pancolitis. 30mg pred (as of 2/01/09), 12 pills Asacol per day, 1mg Atavan per day (anxiety) when needed, Super-omega fish oil pills - 1x per day, Flax oil pills - 1x am, 1x pm, Culturelle probiotics - 2x am, 1x pm, Spinach and sunflower seed diet. Multivitamin. Recent Endonasal brain surgery to remove non-cancerous hormone producing tumor on pituitary gland (and I am still more afraid of my UC!!) "I poop in the woods because I can"

Post Edited (mbx5) : 2/28/2009 9:14:31 AM (GMT-7)


love4cats
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 458
   Posted 2/28/2009 9:19 AM (GMT -6)   
Here is a link on kidney stones if anybody is interested in it.  The best way to avoid stones is by drinking a lot of water to ensure they get flushed before they get too big.  Some people are just prone to them and these people need to watch their diet.
 
 
Dx:  UC Proctitis 2006 
Meds:  None so far. Garlic works to ease flares. My GI laughed when I told him and said it was just coincidence. 
Started Meds:  Apr 9 08 500mg 5ASA (salofalk) to ease flare, tapering, stopped. 
Diet:  Regular fresh garlic, Biobest yogurt daily, Omega 3 supplements, very limited junk food, carbs and processed food, low fat diet.  Lots of fresh fruit and veggies (limited potatoes). 
 Added: tumeric and probiotics.
 
 


subdued
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 3231
   Posted 2/28/2009 11:15 AM (GMT -6)   
love4cats said...
Here is a link on kidney stones if anybody is interested in it. The best way to avoid stones is by drinking a lot of water to ensure they get flushed before they get too big. Some people are just prone to them and these people need to watch their diet.


http://www.kidney.ca/page.asp?intNodeid=22132



The subject of kidney stones scares me. My sister gets them.

I drink tons of water, and I've never had a kidney stone--yet that is.
Joy - 47 yrs and counting
Diagnosed w/ UC Dec 06 (also have IBS)
Currently in remission

Lexapro (for stress)
Probiotics and Vitamins (a whole bunch of them)
Anti-inflammatory foods: turmeric, seaweed, garlic...
Avoid: anything with high-fructose corn syrup, foods high in fructose, artificial sweeteners
Previous treatments: Fecal transplantation (worked), Prednisone (stopped working), Colazal (stopped working), Asacol (stopped working)


mbx5
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 365
   Posted 3/4/2009 10:40 AM (GMT -6)   
Met with urologist yesterday. I have to do a formal 24 hour urine test to see what diet factors are playing into my stones... Unfortunately I havent passed a stone into a filter where it can be analyzed so at this point I cant point my finger at the spinach / sf diet.

However one thing on the list that is considered a "bad" food for kidney stones is spinach.... Not to say you cant eat it, but it should be in moderation. Again, my diet was 1x brick a day.

Urologist stated that UC folks obviously have issues absorbing nutrients / water, etc....hence the constant D. That can be more of a contributing factor than spinach IMO....but, I am going to moderate my spinach intake.

S/F seeds....lots of salt....bad news for kidney stones.... I was eating too much however - 1x bag of salted kernels a day was a bit excessive....So, moderation there will not hurt...maybe throw back a few handlfulls a day...
34 yr old male. UC for 14 years. Started left-sided, most recent scope shows pancolitis. 30mg pred (as of 2/01/09), 12 pills Asacol per day, 1mg Atavan per day (anxiety) when needed, Super-omega fish oil pills - 1x per day, Flax oil pills - 1x am, 1x pm, Culturelle probiotics - 2x am, 1x pm, Spinach and sunflower seed diet. Multivitamin. Recent Endonasal brain surgery to remove non-cancerous hormone producing tumor on pituitary gland (and I am still more afraid of my UC!!) "I poop in the woods because I can"


mtgman
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 1289
   Posted 3/4/2009 12:04 PM (GMT -6)   
pb4 said...
subdued said...
Anything in excess can be bad, even water. There have been cases of people dying due to drinking too much water. The most common cases are drinking too much water during drinking competitions and during intense exercise.

The only realistic way of dying from drinking too much water is like from back when it was on the news regarding those college kids that were drinking excessive amounts all at one time and they were actually drowning their organs from doing that, not from drinking too much water during intense exercise which would be almost impossible because you would start to lag during your workout...it's obviously important to drink water while exercising, it's obviously stupid to over-drink water as a frat prank and drown your organs and die.
 

actually it happens more than you think...marathon runners are a perfect example...as they drink a lot of water while exercising and not replenshing their sodium the electrolyte levels get out of whack...this can certainly kill you...that's why drinking sports beverages and replenishing electrolytes is so important.

mtgman
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2005
Total Posts : 1289
   Posted 3/4/2009 12:06 PM (GMT -6)   
i have had 2 kidney stones over the past year...OUCH!!!!!!
2 er docs told me to drink lemonade and to drink beer.
they each said they are certian chemical combinations in these drinks that help to break up kidney stones and
apparently help to keep them from recurring...

yuckygut
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 214
   Posted 3/7/2009 12:47 AM (GMT -6)   

interesting posts, I like the idea of the beer and lemonade, did it work for you? even if you dont have kidney stones it sounds like a good idea.

pb4, I have read of a few cases in the past year where people trying to loose weight were on a mostly water diet, they diluted out their sodium to dangerous levels and actually died from it, doesnt happen daily, but pretty sad when it does.

I have taken care of many cases of kidney stones over the years, painful and not much fun, I hope you feel better soon.

==========================================

yuckygut

diagnosed 1998

now off prednisone and colazal

drink 1 Haldi daily to remain in remission 

 

 

 

potty girl
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 835
   Posted 3/7/2009 5:39 PM (GMT -6)   
I have had kidney stones and I will take crapping my pants, over the pain, it is very, very bad depending on the size of the stone and can take weeks to pass. not that I like crapping my pants but I really hate pain. I didnt realize that the spinach I was eating could cause them, I no longer eat it just in case. I was only eating like a half a can maybe 3 days a week. not saying that is what caused it but never had kidney stones before.
Rona

synthroid .088 mg, lowpressor 50 mg x 2, cozaar 25mg x2, imdur 30 mg
nitroquick, proventol, plavix 75 mg, protonix 40 mg x 2, asacal 400mg x 9
carafate 1 gm x 4, zyrtec 10 mg, rhinocort aqua nose spray, fish oil,
potassium.


Cfromutah
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 369
   Posted 3/7/2009 6:28 PM (GMT -6)   

there is no proof that oxalic acid contained in spinach causes kidney stones in people with normal kidney function.

and some say this: Most people with calcium oxalate stones should not avoid oxalate-rich foods unless the doctor specifically recommends a restrictive diet. Oxalate binds with calcium in the intestine, which may actually reduce calcium absorption. Some studies, in fact, indicate that eating foods containing oxalates and calcium together may reduce the risk of stones. Most of the foods that contain oxalates are very important for good health. Limiting oxalates may be particularly harmful in people with bowel disorders in which there is malabsorption.

copied from this site:

http://adam.about.com/reports/Kidney-stones.htm

 

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