Radical Induction Theory Part Deux

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Old Mike
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   Posted 10/17/2012 10:24 AM (GMT -7)   
Ok here is the theory,again.
 
Seems they forgot one small detail.
The MPO-Hydrogen Peroxide-Chloride System producing hypochlorous acid,(HOCL).

edit:4/21/15
seems to help shut down immune system after inflammation
TauBr
HO-1
might have posted somewhere else,taurine/5asa
this one also important taucl/neutrophils,should shut off inflammation
intestine inflammation/tnf upregulates TAUT gene expression
possible to be low
tnf sources
sulfur amino acids and immune system human
peroxide deactivates taubr, so also need to quench peroxide as much as possible
taurine and bromates
important taurine inflammation patent
all about taurine may have this posted somewhere else
bromine and basement membranes
 
The second diagram here is the pathway. EDIT link not working, but you can search MPO-Hydrogen Peroxide-Chloride System
Now it gets real interesting.
 
What can block this 5ASA drugs.
Or perhaps better yet Taurine to the rescue,taurine soaks up HOCL,to form less active oxidation compounds,that are less toxic.
I have been  critical of Taurine ever since the report came out in the spring on Taurine conjugated bile acids causing
a massive growth in sulfate reducing bacteria,but now perhaps a different story.
If you are a vegan you have little taurine in the diet,in is only in animal meat/dairy.
You body can make it,but suppose that path is somehow blocked.
Seems humans have little of this enzyme system,perhaps we have less than normal.
 
Enough for now,you get the idea.
I have stopped all supplements,except for starting taurine,will see where this goes. Hopefully do not have a massive
outbreak of sulfate reducers,but since I eat meat normally, I do not expect that to happen. The sulfate reducers were do to
eating the synthetic milk fat.
Old Mike
It seems that a key might be that it is not taurine itself but Taurine chloramine,which inhibits the inflammation,and
taurine does not produce the Taurine chloramine in non inflammed tissue. This I suspect is due to little to know free
hydrogen peroxide in non inflammed tissue.
 
Seems that MSG or perhaps other gultamate inhibits bio synthesis of taurine.
Need to look at it more.
Looks like taurine up regulates NO,whether this is good or bad for UC,not sure.
For me in the past argine which makes more NO had mad be worse,but the action of taurine
cloramine may change what takes place.
N-Chlorotaurine mechanism of action.,good info. Wow this stuff kills everything,bacteria,mycobacteria,yeast fungus,worms,virus.
 
Looks like you loose more by boiling meat.
 
 
Dont know if this applies to humans. He processing of food may change the taurine
absorbtion in the gut. Anyone up for raw Paleo.
 
Taurine content foods.
Units are different,this one says cheese quite a bit.
 
This one says none in cheese,the link is so big took it out.
But this on on carrrageenan,is good.
 
 
There is a chart on page 12 here,taurine in health and disease.
Oysters and clams and scallops are high,
 
Taurine and inflammatory disease. Very good important paper.
Also interesting that prolonged activation of neutraphils can lead to exhaustion,where they run low on taurine and cant make TauCL which is antiinflammatory.
 Might need a little more bromine in the diet,based on above paper,the taurine bromo amine is a real good killer at both acid and neutral ph.
Too much bromine not real good for you,but perhaps kelp pills on occasion might be inorder,still looking into this aspect.
Looks like we intake about only 150mg/day if we are not vegan,this is pretty low.
Taurine bromine.
 
taurine feeding study.
vegans.
As far back as 1992 they knew ROS was a problem.
Actually from the induction theory,we know that hydrogen peroxide was used to induce experimental colits
in the 40's/50's.
I keep finding stuff,5asa drugs seem to also scavage peroxides. Notice they also mention bicarbonate,
2 months ago I was taking 1/4 teaspoon sodium bicarbonate for a few days,at one point all bleeding stopped,
for 3 days, I could not force out any blood, and I tried.
Not all lacto bacteria good for you.

this stuff added 4/23/15
I see there is little interest in this subject but never the less will keep at it.
This is getting curiouser and curiouser.
We make our own taurine but not all that much, get some from the diet depending on how much
meat and seafood you might eat, vegetarians get very very low levels from the diet.
Anyhow there is probably lots of this stuff in our diet today, and phosphatidyl choline or lecithin started to be
produced 1920ish. When hydrolyzed in the gut or elsewhere it turns into lysophosphatidyl choline.
So what.
Well it seems to block the TAUT, taurine transporter.


Well in UC we might need a lot of taurine to down regulate the inflammatory cascade.
Crohn's there is a defect in macrophage killing ability of ingested bacteria.
Taurine might down regulate this ability even more, but so much other stuff going on
difficult to tell if good or bad.
Will add more on the lyso, if when I find it.
Would love to know if vegetarians have less crohns and more UC.
Seems that a semi vegetarian diet can help crohns,less taurine?
Switching to paleo helps some with UC,more taurine.
SCD not sure what is going on.
Lacto-ovo might be even worse,PC from eggs.
I am not talking about rectal or colon mucus PC,or lack there of.
Old Mike
short version

Characteristics of lysophosphatidylcholine in its inhibition of taurine uptake by human intestinal Caco-2 cells.

Abstract

The characteristics of lysophosphatidylcholine (LPC) in its inhibition of the taurine uptake by human intestinal Caco-2 cells were investigated. By treating the cells with 200 microM of LPC, the taurine uptake was rapidly decreased by approximately 60%. This decrease was accompanied by an increase in the Km value for the uptake. A rapid uptake of LPC itself by the cells was also observed. The inhibitory activity of LPC was specific to the uptake of taurine and certain amino acids, while the uptake of glucose, glutamic acid and peptide (glycylglutamine) was not affected by LPC. The activity was dependent on the structure of a polar head and the bound fatty acid. The phosphorylcholine residue was likely to have played an important role, and surface active LPC with fatty acids of C14 or longer was highly inhibitory. These results suggest that the interaction of LPC with the taurine transporter in the intestinal cell membrane was the cause of the reduced taurine uptake


 
 

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 5/7/2015 6:16:37 AM (GMT-6)


aguywithuc
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Date Joined Jun 2010
Total Posts : 3008
   Posted 10/17/2012 12:58 PM (GMT -7)   
That ingredient is in a lot of energy and wellness drinks. I have only positive associations with seeing the word 'Taurine'.

So your taking it in pill form ?

Old Mike
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Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 3790
   Posted 10/17/2012 1:06 PM (GMT -7)   
Yes just started,but they are about 4 years old,may need some new ones.
Old Mike

sean88
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Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 210
   Posted 10/17/2012 6:25 PM (GMT -7)   
Old Mike, did I read that 5ASA was 10x better at scavenging hypochlorous acid than taurine? If that's the case why not stay with the 5ASA or up dosage rather than go to taurine. Also, is your current thinking to go away from the peroxide scavenging with a-lipoic acid.
Left side UC diagnosed 2009
SCD since March 2011
Meds - Colazal, Rowasa, LDN
Supplements - E 1000 IU, D 4000 IU, Fish Oil O3 3g, Multivitamin
Probiotics - Kefir, SCD Yogurt, Kirkmans Duo, Bio-K, L GG, Sauerkraut, Mutaflor, BC30

Old Mike
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Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 3790
   Posted 10/17/2012 7:25 PM (GMT -7)   
Sean:Yes you probably read that somewhere in the studies.I am guessing that other things are going
on with taurine,once the taurine chloramine is formed it starts to inhibit many parts of the inflammatory cascade. Sure if you are taking 5ASA you can add taurine and see if that helps,one of the studies indicates that
they are synergistic.
Yes I have stopped all supplements, except to add taurine,at least as a test.
If this fails and I have little hope, will go back to ala,and methyaltion.
Too much methylation too fast made me worse in a short period of time.
I intend to read the papers again slowly, to pick up any details I missed,which is probably a lot.
When I posted all this stuff I was busy finding the info, and skimming.
Taurine is perhaps one of the bodies main immune quenching pathways,which seems
to have been ignored.
Old Mike

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 10/17/2012 8:42:42 PM (GMT-6)


sean88
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 210
   Posted 10/18/2012 3:21 AM (GMT -7)   
Thanks for the additional detail and understand you are still digesting all the info. I did a similar skim but did not get into the meat of the details. To really understand the theory and potentially what is the best course will be a significant undertaking. I was assuming that Pravda's protocol was the way to go so was going to try a modified form of that.

Mesalamine enema
Oral a-lipoic acid
Butyrate producing diet and probiotics

Willing to switch the a-lipoic acid to taurine if you want to have n=2 :).
Left side UC diagnosed 2009
SCD since March 2011
Meds - Colazal, Rowasa, LDN
Supplements - E 1000 IU, D 4000 IU, Fish Oil O3 3g, Multivitamin
Probiotics - Kefir, SCD Yogurt, Kirkmans Duo, Bio-K, L GG, Sauerkraut, Mutaflor, BC30

Old Mike
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Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 3790
   Posted 10/18/2012 4:19 AM (GMT -7)   
Sean: No,please stick with what you are doing,the ALA is somewhat proven,especially with the mesalamine
enema and buytrate diet. You could add taurine,but that introduces another variable.
If you are on SCD that should provide lots of meat therefore taurine.
Will have to look more into whether cooking is a problem with taurine I see conflicting results.
I am not a good test person for different supplements,since whatever I try mostly does nothing.
I do best with a no/low veggie oil diet,plus epa/dha supplements.
Old Mike

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 10/18/2012 6:02:28 AM (GMT-6)


DanthaMan
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Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 495
   Posted 10/18/2012 7:57 AM (GMT -7)   
I was trying to find the correlation between pork & coleslaw. I would eat some pork tenderloin and feel better for the next 8 hours & when I combined bbq & vinegar based coleslaw then it was even longer 12-16 hours of feeling good reduced urgency. It doesnt always work the same way every time but most of the time I feel better. I wonder if its the taurine in the meat combined with the glutathione precurors in cabbage.
ACES+Zinc
Heathers Peppermint Oil
Curamed
Ubiquinol

UC since 2001, 31 year old male. Finding relief with no gluten/diary. Organic fruits/veggies/meat.

aguywithuc
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Date Joined Jun 2010
Total Posts : 3008
   Posted 10/18/2012 8:24 AM (GMT -7)   
http://molpharm.aspetjournals.org/content/69/4/1405.full.pdf

"Taurine Chloramine but Not Taurine Inhibits NF-κB Activation by the Proinflammatory Cytokine TNF-α in a Dose-Dependent Manner in Human Colon Epithelial Cells."

So does that mean oral ingestion of Taurine will not work ?

freddyj
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Date Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts : 1283
   Posted 10/18/2012 9:37 AM (GMT -7)   
OM,

Doesnt it seem that you are jumping between thoughts/supplements awfully quickly? Just last week you were trying a different approach with different supplements for the first time.

Old Mike
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Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 3790
   Posted 10/18/2012 9:43 AM (GMT -7)   
No,it just means that taurine is the not active component.
You need three compounds to make the chloramnie, taurine,chlorine and hydrogen peroxide,and MPO to make the reaction go. If there is no hydrogen peroxide then nothing happens,if there is no hydrogen peroxide it pretty much means there is no inflammation going on or no bacteria in ulcerations that generate hydrogen peroxide. So this is a controlled reaction to inflammation,the taurine sops up the hydrogen peroxide and prevents it from killing tissue, the formed chloroamine then kills bacteria and also down regulates the immune cascade. Over time the chloramine degrades back into taurine. What an elegant
solution by the body to keep inflammation under control.
Make sure you read my last entry in my initial postcovering mechanism of action.
If in the case of IBD there is low taurine in the body then it needs to be figured out as to why.
I can see that eating Paleo will provide more taurine,and that might be a reason it works in some people,can also explain why vegans get UC,no taurine in veggies,if lacto-ovo will get taurine but perhaps not enough.
The other reason for low taurine in the body is impared systhesis,and or something competing with taurine,or blocking synthesis such as MSG and related compounds, still have to research cooking on taurine content of foods.
Old Mike

Old Mike
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Date Joined Jan 2007
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   Posted 10/18/2012 10:00 AM (GMT -7)   
Freddy: The literature searching takes me down many different pathways,many perhaps are deadends.
What started this was the ALA study that someone posted,which is backed up by the radical induction theory,
which led to improper methylation. Thus taking methy folate and methyl B12 and ALA.
While searching ROS I ran across hypochlorous acid as a byproduct of MPO and hydrogen peroxide.
Then discovered that in the RIT there was no mention of , MPO or hypochlorous acid.
Additional searching led to this thread.
Since ALA,with methylation made me worse I decided to stop that approach for the time being and
try taurine. If taurine does nothing for me,they will go back to methylation and ALA only at lower doses.
At this point taurine seems to be a major part of the bodies master game plan for inflammation control,and prevention of tissue destruction. It works sort of as a do not break glass fire alarm.
the taurine just sits there until needed,and when there is hydrogen peroxide the glass get broken.
Old Mike

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 10/18/2012 1:32:49 PM (GMT-6)


freddyj
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Date Joined Aug 2011
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   Posted 10/18/2012 11:02 AM (GMT -7)   
Well fwiw, Ive been taking 2 ala's per day and replaced my folic acid with methylfolate as well. The results, however *difficult to interpret* (and they are)... seem to be some improvement. This am I took a crap that was so solid it rocked my world coming out. Did have some insubstantial D during the night, however...

Also, Ive said **** it and have been eating cinnamon breads, muffins and the like, and in pretty dense quantities. I have still been paradoxically improving, however slowly.

Old Mike
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Date Joined Jan 2007
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   Posted 10/18/2012 12:28 PM (GMT -7)   
That is great freddyj:
Hopefully it keeps up.
I will get back to it if the taurine fails.
Old Mike

Old Mike
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Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 3790
   Posted 10/20/2012 7:53 AM (GMT -7)   
Ok I have found probably as much as I am going to find on this subject,please go back to the starting post have added a few papers.
Quick summary so your eyes don't glaze over.
Taurine is a conditional amino acid,well not really it is a sulfonic acid,and not used to make protein in the body.
We can make our own taurine,but it is a slow process and not that efficient,we get much from diet. Vegans get little to none,shell fish are highest in taurine,oyseters,clams,scallops.
There is a lot of ROS with UC due to MPO resulting in hydrogen peroxide formation,which damages cells also kills bacteria.
The Hp can also form hypochlorous acid,another oxidant,this reacts with Taurin to form tauro chloroamine,which is less damaging.
The tauCL also is anti inflammatory,and shuts down the NF-Kapa beta path,along with TNF-Alpha,upregulates GHS produiction.
TauCL also kills many bacteria,virus,fungi,mycobacteria,yeast and worms.
Neutrophils can run low on taurine and become exhausted,therefore no TauroCl formation.
Once this happens the HP can do much damage,if other antioxidant systems are also depleted.
Hopefully this neglected amino acid/antioxidant may provide some use for putting UC into remission.
Old Mike

sean88
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 210
   Posted 10/21/2012 4:40 AM (GMT -7)   
Great summary Old Mike. It sounds like it's worth getting more Taurine whether by diet or supplement. Any thoughts on best regimen for taurine? Oral? How much? Diet? Lots of scallops? Add to enemas?
Left side UC diagnosed 2009
SCD since March 2011
Meds - Colazal, Rowasa, LDN
Supplements - E 1000 IU, D 4000 IU, Fish Oil O3 3g, Multivitamin
Probiotics - Kefir, SCD Yogurt, Kirkmans Duo, Bio-K, L GG, Sauerkraut, Mutaflor, BC30

Old Mike
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Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 3790
   Posted 10/21/2012 5:16 AM (GMT -7)   
Enema is an option they did it on mice.
In human studies they have fed up to 4 grams a day, I have also read that can cause stomach ulcers
by creating more HCL,but that is not confirmed.
If kidneys are not working good taurine can build up in the blood.
No Idea how much to take,see what you can tolerate, I started out with 1500mg and felt I had to back off,
now about 750 a day,too early to tell if doing anything or if it is enough.
Seafood might be the best approach,but way more expensive.
Old Mike
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