Van Jordan

VanJordan said...

A lot of IBD patients complain that alternative medicine doesn't work but it's usually because they are not doing it properly.

Do you have any scientific evidence to support this statement or is it just your biased opinion?

Based on your posts here you didn't do "conventional" medicine properly either.

It's possible to discuss alternatives without disrespecting those who needed or chose to work with conventional treatments.

poopydoop said...
Do you have any scientific evidence to support this statement or is it just your biased opinion?

Many people use inferior quality products or improper dosing. I have a lot of experience of talking to people over the past 10 years, including natural health professionals. I also have that experience.

How do you propose that somebody craft a scientific study to examine the question of alternative medicine being used improperly as a result of its inefficacy? I haven't seen one, but I've interacted with many natural health practitioners over the years who have informed me that this is the #1 issue with patients who use their services, and with other practitioners who have low success rates. I trust their expertise.

poopydoop said...
Based on your posts here you didn't do "conventional" medicine properly either.

Since you seem to know my complete medical history, I'll invite you to explain exactly what you mean here?

poopydoop said...
It's possible to discuss alternatives without disrespecting those who needed or chose to work with conventional treatments.

I haven't disrespected anybody for using conventional medicine. My critiques of conventional medicine are not critiques of the people who choose to use it. Please make that distinction. I think I've been pretty clear in separating my own experience, which is that conventional medicine did not work for me, from my general critique that I think conventional medicine is barking up the wrong tree when it comes to treating IBD. I don't agree with the immune suppression approach to research, but that doesn't mean I look down upon those who use it.

My remark earlier was mostly a reflection on a poster who tried a bunch of new alternative treatments at once and then had intense symptoms. I reflected by saying that a lot of people do alternative medicine improperly by introducing too many remedies at once or in the wrong quantities and then when they get recoil they claim alternative medicine doesn't work. A lot of people approach supplements this way because they underestimate the power of those supplements. Do you disagree?

Furthermore, I have actually given feedback on these forums about alternative health approaches and supplements that I don't believe are effective. I don't just critique conventional medicine.

So I've been following this protocol (+ phosphatidylcholin mixed with psyllium husk powder twice a day) for 10 days now and having great results so far. Down from 5-7x daily diarrhea to 2-4 Bm a day. I do still see blood, but the stools are gettting more formed and the urgency lessened. Hopefully it keeps on improving.

Pinocchio said...
So I've been following this protocol (+ phosphatidylcholin mixed with psyllium husk powder twice a day) for 10 days now and having great results so far. Down from 5-7x daily diarrhea to 2-4 Bm a day. I do still see blood, but the stools are gettting more formed and the urgency lessened. Hopefully it keeps on improving.

what are you taking exactly? the same brand and supplement like van jordan?

I'm just posting the two big threads where I discussed this matter in great detail, so others can find them from here:

Radical Induction Theory-Time to re-visit
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=3322927&p=12

Hydrogen peroxide and UC.Is it the cause.
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=4285467

Pomegranate is another awesome one. It also slowly modifies gut bacteria over time to reduce hydrogen sulfide producers, which are often a problem. In the days when I was heavily investigating gut microbes as the root cause of UC, I ended up taking pomegranate husk tincture instead of drinking gallons of expensive pomegranate juice. The die off was incredible. It happened so fast that I basically flared and lost months of progress. So when I eventually reintroduced pomegranate husk tincture, I had to take very small quantities.

Now I don't really bother with gut flora. Once antioxidants remedy the hydrogen peroxide, the gut begins to heal and seal, so the gut bacteria are less of a factor. Mind you, it's not healthy to have really unhealthy gut populations. It leads to heart disease, colon cancer and all kinds of other diseases. But gut flora have nothing to do with the origins of UC. It's why normal people can have horrible diets and not get UC. Yeah, their diet is not good for them, but it doesn't cause the oxidative damage that UC folks suffer.

Once I'm 6 months to a year into my protocol, I'm going to go back to eating ferments like kefir and kraut because I'll probably be able to tolerate the gut bacteria shifts more readily. I can already eat dairy again for the first time in almost 10 years. My food allergies are disappearing. It's amazing!

brucen36 said...
According to radical induction theory, the immune system is responding to bacterial invasion of the colonic epithelial barrier which is damaged due to OH radicals from H2O2. The immune response tries to kill the bacteria and in the process causes ulcerations to the colonic lining.

So for those who have a successful response to blocking the immune system via various drugs resulting in the healing of ulcers, why aren't they dead from septic shock?

In severe UC, sepsis is a possibility when ulcers get deep enough and gut bacteria start invading the blood stream in significant numbers, such as in fulminant UC. In mild to moderate UC, it's not a full on invasion, more of a leaky gut situation. In fulminant UC, the colon barrier is so permeable that the rate of bacterial invasion is much, much higher, so much so that the blood stream gets full of waste products from the fight. This causes sepsis. In lesser UC, the rate of invasion is much less.

Think about it this way. If the issue were auto-immune, which would mean that the immune cells are becoming sensitized to gut bacteria and then attacking the colon, then how is rectal-only disease possible? Why doesn't everybody have pancolitis, since those bacteria are uniform in the entire colon? If it's auto-immune, why aren't colon bacteria being attacked everywhere that they exist?

Instead, hydrogen peroxide is causing permeability of the colon wall in areas of highest oxidation. The rectum is the point of highest oxidation because it has the highest numbers of bacteria, toxic waste, and colonic cell turnover. So if there is a redox chemistry problem, it will appear there first, and then start traveling upwards. That is exactly what happens in UC.

I will now answer your question more directly. Why does immune suppression work in some cases? Hydrogen peroxide leaking out of cells triggers an immune response, particularly in macrophages and neutrophils. It's not just a useless byproduct produced in cells; hydrogen peroxide is a signalling molecule. It tells immune cells where there is an injury and how to find it. It's an immune-system attractant. So the hydrogen peroxide problem is already immune activating to start with. The second aspect to this, is that immune cells *themselves* use hydrogen peroxide to attack invaders, as well as elastase (a kind of trypsin) to destroy invaders. So when they show up, they dump more destructive materials onto the tissue, which causes more oxidative stress, which causes more immune response. This is the inflammatory cascade in action. So, although immune suppression does not stop the hydrogen peroxide problem that caused the immune attack in the first place, it keeps immune cells away so that they don't cause more damage. Then the colon has a chance to heal to some degree. The healing is rarely 100% because the underlying peroxide problem remains. That's why a lot of UC patients can never terminate treatment without their UC returning. Immune suppression just prevents the cascade from getting worse, but it does not stop the factor that started it in the first place: hydrogen peroxide.

An analogous situation is food allergies. People with UC have leaky gut which means food particles enter a layer of the colon wall where they are exposed to immune cells. Then the immune system becomes sensitized to those foods and you get food intolerance. You could ask the same question about that. Why doesn't food cause sepsis? Because leaky gut isn't total permeability. The gut wall is still mostly functioning but it's impaired. What is impairing it? Hydrogen peroxide.

I am betting (but have no evidence) that sepsis in UC is also a hydrogen peroxide phenomenon, except it is taking place outside of the colon. The waste products of the severe battle in the colon leak into the blood stream where the oxidative cascade continues, and hydrogen peroxide starts causing systemic damage. Again, I have no proof, but based on all of the research I have done on redox medicine, I am guessing this is a factor. It explains why some people get sepsis from an infection while others don't, despite the same bacterial counts. Differing genetics and cellular capacity to deal with oxidative stress.

I heard cold showers let the body produce more glutathion; do you guys think this might be something beneficial?

Pinocchio said...
I heard cold showers let the body produce more glutathion; do you guys think this might be something beneficial?

No.

VanJordan said...

In severe UC, sepsis is a possibility when ulcers get deep enough and gut bacteria start invading the blood stream in significant numbers, such as in fulminant UC. In mild to moderate UC, it's not a full on invasion, more of a leaky gut situation. In fulminant UC, the colon barrier is so permeable that the rate of bacterial invasion is much, much higher, so much so that the blood stream gets full of waste products from the fight. This causes sepsis. In lesser UC, the rate of invasion is much less.

Think about it this way. If the issue were auto-immune, which would mean that the immune cells are becoming sensitized to gut bacteria and then attacking the colon, then how is rectal-only disease possible? Why doesn't everybody have pancolitis, since those bacteria are uniform in the entire colon? If it's auto-immune, why aren't colon bacteria being attacked everywhere that they exist?

Instead, hydrogen peroxide is causing permeability of the colon wall in areas of highest oxidation. The rectum is the point of highest oxidation because it has the highest numbers of bacteria, toxic waste, and colonic cell turnover. So if there is a redox chemistry problem, it will appear there first, and then start traveling upwards. That is exactly what happens in UC.

I will now answer your question more directly. Why does immune suppression work in some cases? Hydrogen peroxide leaking out of cells triggers an immune response, particularly in macrophages and neutrophils. It's not just a useless byproduct produced in cells; hydrogen peroxide is a signalling molecule. It tells immune cells where there is an injury and how to find it. It's an immune-system attractant. So the hydrogen peroxide problem is already immune activating to start with. The second aspect to this, is that immune cells *themselves* use hydrogen peroxide to attack invaders, as well as elastase (a kind of trypsin) to destroy invaders. So when they show up, they dump more destructive materials onto the tissue, which causes more oxidative stress, which causes more immune response. This is the inflammatory cascade in action. So, although immune suppression does not stop the hydrogen peroxide problem that caused the immune attack in the first place, it keeps immune cells away so that they don't cause more damage. Then the colon has a chance to heal to some degree. The healing is rarely 100% because the underlying peroxide problem remains. That's why a lot of UC patients can never terminate treatment without their UC returning. Immune suppression just prevents the cascade from getting worse, but it does not stop the factor that started it in the first place: hydrogen peroxide.

An analogous situation is food allergies. People with UC have leaky gut which means food particles enter a layer of the colon wall where they are exposed to immune cells. Then the immune system becomes sensitized to those foods and you get food intolerance. You could ask the same question about that. Why doesn't food cause sepsis? Because leaky gut isn't total permeability. The gut wall is still mostly functioning but it's impaired. What is impairing it? Hydrogen peroxide.

I am betting (but have no evidence) that sepsis in UC is also a hydrogen peroxide phenomenon, except it is taking place outside of the colon. The waste products of the severe battle in the colon leak into the blood stream where the oxidative cascade continues, and hydrogen peroxide starts causing systemic damage. Again, I have no proof, but based on all of the research I have done on redox medicine, I am guessing this is a factor. It explains why some people get sepsis from an infection while others don't, despite the same bacterial counts. Differing genetics and cellular capacity to deal with oxidative stress.

I've read the paper outlining the theory. It's interesting. I'm not saying it's wrong, but if you read carefully, it is indeed very speculative. I hope it's right as that would at least focus therapeutic development to the right source.

However, regarding it not being full invasion in mild UC, according to the theory, at least some bacteria is gaining access through the tight junctions to the basement membrane. If the immune system is not able to fully respond, then what happens to these bacteria? They should persist and replicate within that compromised environment. Their numbers will continue to grow since nothing is inhibiting them (due to immune suppression drugs), until they can indeed begin a full invasion and cause sepsis. But this does not happen. So I'm not sure I fully buy this argument.

Regarding the autoimmunity, you kind of contradicted yourself. You said the bacteria are uniform through the colon and so autoimmunity should be equal along the entire colon from the beginning. But then you follow it up with the rectum has the highest concentration of bacteria. If it is auto-immune, then rectal only disease is possible for pretty much the same reason you outlined for H2O2, the highest concentration of bacteria are in the rectum and so it begins there first. As the overall load of bacteria grows due to various stressors, the concentration passes a certain threshold so it spread to higher parts of the colon, which formerly were below the threshold. Again, not saying auto-immune theory is wrong or right either.

Food doesn't cause sepsis, again because of a matter of concentration. When food gets past the barrier, it doesn't replicate, whereas bacteria that get past can replicate, and so only they should cause sepsis.

VanJordan said...

Hambo88 said...
but what hapend when fecal transplantation heal the patient? This phenomen is real, sometime FT is effective for some patient. Maybe the right bacterias produce more butyrate.

But my GI told if we check the flora when the patient has inflamination then it is totaly bad, and then if the patient receive any immunsuprresan and the inflamination go off then the gut flora will be also perfect.

interesting.

Fecal transplant has a really poor track record with UC. Very few are helped by it. The only people it's guaranteed to help are those with C. diff. I myself tried FMT and it almost killed me.

my other question if the ROS/ hidrogen peroxid the main cause then why the entivio, remicade, xeljanz and such immunsupressant can help to some pepole and put into emission some people.

VanJordan said...


He has new peer reviewed study coming out shortly. I think we should withhold our judgments until we see his update.


UC is not transmural like Crohn's, so you are not going to see auto-infections as often, unless there are very deep ulcerations to the point of perforation. Biologics and immune suppression don't fully deactivate the immune system, they simply inhibit its migration into the bowel. The science behind this is consistent. I invite you to read more about the pathophysiology of UC and how the gut wall functions. Tight junction disruption is not analagous to perforation/sepsis, but it's enough to sensitize the immune system to colon bacteria and begin attacking.


I'm talking about immune system sensitization. Auto-immune means that the immune system is attacking the body's own cells or it's attacking something inherent to the body like gut bacteria. The gut of infants is colonized very rapidly and childhood exposure to bacteria informs the developing immune system. The prevailing UC theory is that the body is either attacking its own colon cells or it has "forgotten" to not attack native gut flora.

What I said in my last post, which is not contradictory, is that if the body has developed an immunity to its own gut bacteria OR the colon wall, then why is only the last 12 inches of colon affected? The concentration of bacteria is irrelevant to auto-immune theory. If the immune system is attacking rectal bacteria then it should also be attacking ascending colon bacteria. Similarly, if it's an attack on the colon wall itself, then why just the rectum, when colonocytes are in the entire colon?

The reductive theory of disease explains this. The rectum has the highest concentration of oxidative stress because it is where waste is the most concentrated and bacterial counts are highest. So cell turnover is highest. It's not because (as you claim) that bacterial load is highest so more bacteria are leaking into the body. That is not how the pathophysiology of UC works. The immune system doesn't *cause* leaky gut, it *responds* to it.

What you are saying about spread of UC according to bacterial counts pouring over into higher areas is incorrect. Even conventional UC theory would not agree with you. There is not an out of control bacterial problem causing auto-infection that spreads. UC due to infection is uncommon. Most UC patients have normal gut flora species, the ratios are just way off.


The immune system is still active even during so-called immune suppression. Neutrophils don't disappear from the body, neither do macrophages. Their access to the mucosa is hindered by drugs. UC is a mucosal disease, it is not transmural. In UC, ulcers develop which fester due to colon bacteria. The ulcers have to get deep before sepsis occurs. The gut immune system is incredibly complex and leaky gut does not mean bacteria automatically get to enter the rest of the body and start replicating.

I understand your reasoning but it's too simple-pointed. There is more going on than 2 or 3 factors.

One thing at a time. Are you saying the rectum and colon are separate or are you saying the colon includes the rectum? In either case what then did you mean by "Why doesn't everybody have pancolitis, since those bacteria are uniform in the entire colon?" What is uniform? I'm taking uniform to mean the same throughout, perhaps you mean something else?