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Van Jordan/Dr. Pravda (antioxidant method

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LowLead
Regular Member
Joined : Apr 2022
Posts : 39
Posted 8/23/2022 5:13 PM (GMT -8)

CCinPA said...
One of the things that I really have been wondering about ... Pravda did those patient studies more than 14 years ago. I had expected that in this new paper there would be some more recent or more examples of patient results and there wasn't.


I think this might have to do with funding. Pravda and his colleagues are trying to get a sponsor for larger trials, but the CCFA hasn’t been very responsive it seems.

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poopydoop
Veteran Member
Joined : Dec 2018
Posts : 1799
Posted 8/23/2022 5:50 PM (GMT -8)

LowLead said...

You mean like Dr. Crohn? You’ve already mentioned RIT articles that weren’t done by doctors named Jay Pravda. This is the circular argument I’m talking about. Just pretend your doctor recommends trying a cocktail of different drugs, every time Pravda is mentioned. It’ll save you from needing to read that name again.


Sorry but I don't understand what you're trying to say? When have I ever pretended that my doctor recommends trying a cocktail of different drugs?
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LowLead
Regular Member
Joined : Apr 2022
Posts : 39
Posted 8/23/2022 6:01 PM (GMT -8)

poopydoop said...

Sorry but I don't understand what you're trying to say?


Yes…that seems to be a theme here huh. It’s a recommendation, not an accusation.

Example: If someone says “Just try it” that person is recommending you try it, not accusing you of already trying it.

I can’t keep breaking things down like this folks. Happy to discuss the research if anyone has anything.
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CCinPA
Veteran Member
Joined : Dec 2014
Posts : 2518
Posted 8/23/2022 6:28 PM (GMT -8)
If CCFA doesn't want to fund the research there must be a reason for that. If Pravda can't find a sponsor, again there must be a reason for that. I wonder if he has tried to partner with a research, teaching hospital/university. Seems like that would be a good fit.
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poopydoop
Veteran Member
Joined : Dec 2018
Posts : 1799
Posted 8/23/2022 6:44 PM (GMT -8)
Sorry lowlead but i cannot make any sense of your post and implying i am stupid, while throwing out terms like "circular argument " and "dunning kruger effect" is a deflection technique rather than discussing the actual science at hand.

CC - I also don’t understand... as a UC patient I have to go for cancer screenings every 2 years. The 35 other patients who were not followed up after 8 weeks- where did they go? Does he not keep his own patients longer than 8 weeks? I am in Europe which i understand does things differently but I'm expected to check in with my doctor at least once a year while in remission. It doesn't need external funding to follow up on your own patients.
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LowLead
Regular Member
Joined : Apr 2022
Posts : 39
Posted 8/23/2022 7:55 PM (GMT -8)

poopydoop said...
Sorry lowlead but i cannot make any sense of your post and implying i am stupid, while throwing out terms like "circular argument " and "dunning kruger effect" is a deflection technique rather than discussing the actual science at hand.


You didn't ask me about the actual science. You asked me a question which concerned your understanding of the English language. No science, or deflection needed.

CCinPA said...
If CCFA doesn't want to fund the research there must be a reason for that. If Pravda can't find a sponsor, again there must be a reason for that. I wonder if he has tried to partner with a research, teaching hospital/university. Seems like that would be a good fit.


I spoke with Dr. Pravda about that. He has his own theories which varied based on the source of funding sought. He may have a patent now. (https://patents.google.com/patent/us8476233b2/en) While that may be beneficial for some pharmaceutical companies seeking a return on investment, it also poses an existential threat to others. Adalimumab was 60% of AbbVie's revenue in 2019 which carries with it an average US price of over $9,000. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc7839249/)

Now imagine if something twice as effective contained ingredients that sell for 9 times less, and proves entire classes of treatment for a chronic illness are misguided. It'd put Pravda in a tough spot. Anyway, that's pure speculation on my part. I don't want to speak for him. You can contact him directly if you're curious about who he's reached out to, and what the responses have been. I'm not on a need to know basis.

As has been mentioned here, a lot, it's also not an entirely new concept. This case occured in 1948: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14445720/

This study was done in 1951: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14799687/

Pravda is merely connecting those types of cases, with RIT. He then posited his own theory to explain how it occurs naturally, tested it, found success, and published exactly what he did in an attempt to literally improve your quality of life, and you haven't paid him anything yet, have you? Now it's up to people to give it a shot. Given the positive safety record of the drugs involved, I plan on it. I've already spent $1,500 this year on 5-ASA drugs my doctor prescribed, which my insurance has deemed "medically unnecessary", so for another $1,000 of non-covered treatment I stand to gain complete mucosal healing at best, and stand to lose practically nothing.

There is a major difference between offering feedback on study participant quantity and timeline, and saying a doctor is morally questionable, serving only to sell something proprietary for a monetary interest. The first of which is an honest critique that needs an actionable path forward, the latter is obviously conspiratorial and lacks any evidence, usually resolved with me posting contradictory references, then the cycle repeats.

I can't write prescriptions for myself, so in the meantime, maybe there's lifestyle changes that can be made to compliment a novel treatment. And here we are in a forum, discussing that. Or, trying to, at least.
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beave
Veteran Member
Joined : Mar 2007
Posts : 2331
Posted 8/23/2022 8:25 PM (GMT -8)

poopydoop said...
Sorry lowlead but i cannot make any sense of your post and implying i am stupid, while throwing out terms like "circular argument " and "dunning kruger effect" is a deflection technique rather than discussing the actual science at hand.

CC - I also don’t understand... as a UC patient I have to go for cancer screenings every 2 years. The 35 other patients who were not followed up after 8 weeks- where did they go? Does he not keep his own patients longer than 8 weeks? I am in Europe which i understand does things differently but I'm expected to check in with my doctor at least once a year while in remission. It doesn't need external funding to follow up on your own patients.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that Dr. Pravda is not a gastroenterologist but rather an allergy/immunology doctor. It may be quite difficult for him to get insurance approval to do colonoscopies on his patients, since he may not be licensed/accredited to do such procedures. Maybe some of his patients on whom he has done scopes have paid for them out-of-pocket?

Again, this is pure speculation on my part.
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beave
Veteran Member
Joined : Mar 2007
Posts : 2331
Posted 8/23/2022 8:29 PM (GMT -8)

LowLead said...

You didn't ask me about the actual science. You asked me a question which concerned your understanding of the English language. No science, or deflection needed.

I spoke with Dr. Pravda about that. He has his own theories which varied based on the source of funding sought. He may have a patent now. (https://patents.google.com/patent/us8476233b2/en) While that may be beneficial for some pharmaceutical companies seeking a return on investment, it also poses an existential threat to others. Adalimumab was 60% of AbbVie's revenue in 2019 which carries with it an average US price of over $9,000. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc7839249/)

Now imagine if something twice as effective contained ingredients that sell for 9 times less, and proves entire classes of treatment for a chronic illness are misguided. It'd put Pravda in a tough spot. Anyway, that's pure speculation on my part. I don't want to speak for him. You can contact him directly if you're curious about who he's reached out to, and what the responses have been. I'm not on a need to know basis.
.....
There is a major difference between offering feedback on study participant quantity and timeline, and saying a doctor is morally questionable, serving only to sell something proprietary for a monetary interest. The first of which is an honest critique that needs an actionable path forward, the latter is obviously conspiratorial and lacks any evidence, usually resolved with me posting contradictory references, then the cycle repeats.

I can't write prescriptions for myself, so in the meantime, maybe there's lifestyle changes that can be made to compliment a novel treatment. And here we are in a forum, discussing that. Or, trying to, at least.

Interesting that you start with a conspiracy theory promulgated by Dr. Pravda himself (that he doesn't get funding because his potential treatment could kill the profits of big pharma), and then you go on to say other's posts here are "conspiratorial" and "lacks any evidence."
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clo2014
Veteran Member
Joined : Feb 2015
Posts : 1823
Posted 8/23/2022 8:34 PM (GMT -8)
Lowlead,

Have you started this yet? Have you noticed any difference? What about the others on here that are doing this...are they seeing results?

It would be very interesting to have everyone that tries it keep track and post their experiences.... Plus follow it up with their yearly scope results.. (well some people get them every 2 or 3 years...)
Perhaps Van Jordan or some of the others can organize that. It could benefit so many people. Just a thought..... And I am just assuming that VanJordan will eventually come back. I mean there's no way to really know---is there?

And noooooo..... I haven't and I am not going to try to read thru everything right now. (Kidney stone from heck and on meds....I can not think so it wouldn't be retained) I will later.

And I am being sincere here.... Not mean or snarky. What works for someone else may or may not work for me. If it doesn't hurt me I'll research it and maybe try it....

Clo

Post Edited (clo2014) : 8/23/2022 9:37:13 PM (GMT-7)

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LowLead
Regular Member
Joined : Apr 2022
Posts : 39
Posted 8/23/2022 8:40 PM (GMT -8)

beave said...
Interesting that you start with a conspiracy theory promulgated by Dr. Pravda himself (that he doesn't get funding because his potential treatment could kill the profits of big pharma), and then you go on to say other's posts here are "conspiratorial" and "lacks any evidence."


This is another comprehension error.

I said I was speculating as to why funding for research on this particular theory is limited, not speaking for Dr. Pravda. That's why I said you can contact him directly if you'd like his answers.

Also, if you're suggesting my one speculative post is on par with this...

poopydoop said...
The only morally questionable thing I've seen in this thread is a doctor who promotes himself

CCinPA said...

it was a poorly written paper in a sub par journal
...
thought the paper was just a marketing gimmick to sell Pravda's proprietary enemas and oral treatment
...
quack science
...
could very well be dangerous for some people.

Kevin_H said...
this is all a fad...


...then I think you're holding me to a seriously inequitable standard
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beave
Veteran Member
Joined : Mar 2007
Posts : 2331
Posted 8/23/2022 8:49 PM (GMT -8)
Comprehension error. LOL. More condescension for those who question your posts.

So it's OK for you to have conspiratorial thinking about the motives of funding sources, but it's unacceptable conspiratorial thinking when posters here question Pravda's motives?
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LowLead
Regular Member
Joined : Apr 2022
Posts : 39
Posted 8/23/2022 9:13 PM (GMT -8)

clo2014 said...

Have you started this yet? Have you noticed any difference? What about the others on here that are doing this...


To my knowledge the exact treatment hasn't been tried by anyone here, but some members have anecdotally claimed lifestyle changes have helped, yes. Feel better soon.

beave said...
Comprehension error. LOL. More condescension for those who question your posts.

So it's OK for you to have conspiratorial thinking about the motives of funding sources, but it's unacceptable conspiratorial thinking when posters here question Pravda's motives?


Yes, a comprehension error. When did I say it was unacceptable? I'm here discussing it, aren't I? People can think Dr. Evil is trying to make a quick buck, just like I can post references that are contradictory. I was pulled off topic with thoughts on why funding has been poor, and my thoughts on that are my own. There is no 'gotcha' here. Please, if my thoughts on Pravda's funding are falsifiable through your own references, or opinions, I'd love to hear it, but I'll admit, when someone's posts start becoming only speculative in nature, I tend to look at them with a jaundiced eye.
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cooper360
Regular Member
Joined : Jul 2010
Posts : 179
Posted 8/23/2022 9:57 PM (GMT -8)
I see the debating (arguing) and snarky remarks haven’t stopped…..I really don’t think Van Jordan was the problem! The only answers I saw from him were detailed & well researched! He designed a protocol for himself and it was based on the hydrogen peroxide theory! Seemed like it irritated some people! Very peaceful away from HW discussing this theory!
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FlowersGal
Veteran Member
Joined : Feb 2017
Posts : 1631
Posted 8/23/2022 10:19 PM (GMT -8)
Honestly folks it’s getting a little tiresome to read snarky back and forth comments and insults. Enough already! Everyone has said their piece many times over. Just let it lie now. There doesn’t have to be a comeback every time.
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damo123
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2007
Posts : 942
Posted 8/24/2022 1:39 AM (GMT -8)
I'm sure it is really important for you to always be right LowLead and that you cling to those 13% and 70% numbers with fervent appeal. But I agree with poppydoop in that I cannot for the life of me understand your arguments and your way of thinking on these threads. You claim people are holding you to an inequitable standard yet you are justifying a paper with no scientific merit, it is not a controlled trial and is not statistically powered in any way. I do not read too much of these papers nor your circular arguments. If you do want to progress research here than do as OldMike has done for years and give the links and let people decide and experiment for themselves. He has done that in an exemplary fashion for years.
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kyle_dn
Regular Member
Joined : Nov 2021
Posts : 40
Posted 8/24/2022 1:47 AM (GMT -8)
anyone have the feeling that LowLead is now VanJordan in disguise????
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LowLead
Regular Member
Joined : Apr 2022
Posts : 39
Posted 8/24/2022 2:05 AM (GMT -8)

damo123 said...
you cling to those 13% and 70% numbers with fervent appeal.


What? I posted the references once. You're also publicly telling on people, when you can simply alert admins through the forum options? A little cringey.

Now that this thread has also been successfully crashed, let me tell an anecdote I once heard before I stop paying this anymore attention.

Gomer Pyle, U.S.M.C. was a sitcom on television, and for those who aren't familiar with it, it's a spinoff of The Andy Griffith Show, and it's the ongoing story about a man named, you guessed it, Gomer Pyle, who's not dumb, but he's a very simple man from rural America who goes into the US Marine Corps, and comedy is supposed to ensue (it's debatable whether or not any comedy did ensue).

Now, sources don't always agree, but as far as I can tell, the show was in production from about 1965 until about 1970, throughout the height of the Vietnam War. I haven't seen the show very much but based on the few episodes that I have seen, and the various sources that I've read about the show, there is never a time, in the entire production, where they mention Vietnam, or even the fact that there's a war going on.

This is a television show about the daily lives of people in a Marine Corps infantry platoon, yet they seem to be completely oblivious to the notion that a war is going on.

The show has been out of production for approximately 50 years, but to this day, there are people who are in various fields of endeavor, such as movie and television historians, historians of other kinds, movie and television critics, sociologists, who will vilify Jim Nabors and Frank Sutton, and, who will criticize the show, for being socially irresponsible because they didn't enter the debate and discussion on the Vietnam War.

In other words, they suggest if you ignore an issue, you're being irresponsible.

If I don't directly respond to misinformation I see, I don't want other readers thinking I'm implicit in spreading it. Someone has written about a novel therapy (who currently isn't benefiting from it in any monetary way) for refractory ulcerative colitis.

I've tried to guide the horse to water here, but it's become apparent I also need to teach it how to move its limbs.

Hopefully I've pointed out enough fallacies to make my point clear enough to distance myself from the Gomer Pyle issue going on here, and from this point on readers will know why I've had to ignore some of this stuff.
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Kevin_H
Regular Member
Joined : Feb 2022
Posts : 24
Posted 8/24/2022 2:39 AM (GMT -8)
I would doubt he is, VanJordan actually made a lot more sense
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Michelejc
Forum Moderator
Joined : Jan 2011
Posts : 2844
Posted 8/24/2022 6:42 AM (GMT -8)

Mark4623 said...
Replied already Hambo


I deleted your disgusting post in this thread. If you attack anyone again, I'm banning you.
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