The f.varium is in all our gastro/respiratory/genito tracts living quite cohesively and quietly. Interesting, however the UC/fv connection. It does say a high percentage of UCers with active disease have it.
So you're saying everyone has f. varium in them? If so, then of course UC sufferers would have f. varium, because everyone does.
Or am I misunderstanding?
Hi...I was too general in my statement..I should have said fusobacterium species. I found some good info on both, one especially that lists the different names of fusobacterium varium.
It seems a high percentage of UCers have a high count of F.Varium when in active disease state. I don't know if it's in those who are in remission..I have to do the reading.
The most interesting point is the fusobacterium and production of butyrate.. So, Horus or whoever else talks about
butyrate...hope you'll come on and clarify some of the scientific aspects of this. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17464938 http://www.exactantigen.com/taxonomy/bacteria/f/fusobacterium-varium.html http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20020187152.html
The difference is that F Varium and this study were done in japan and on japanese people that have a different genetic makeup than we do. Do you know how many asians lack the ability to metabolize alcohol? It's huge. The bacteria that they think in japan that might cause colitis might not cause colitis in the US or in Mexico. Ever hear of travelers diarrhea? It's because bacteria you pick up as you travel have different effects on genetically different people. People from mexico get travelers diarrhea when they come here. We get it when we go there. Yet this same bacteria has no affect on the local population. When you grow up with certain bacteria you body adjusts to it. The extreme version of this is that genetics has probably a lot more to do with it than anything else. As an example, why didn't everyone who lives with these people also get UC? Certainly they were exposed eventually to the same bacteria. The reason why everyone around those with UC doesn't get UC even though they are exposed to the same bacteria is because the individual with UC is genetically predisposed to react in a negative way to the byproducts or actions of certain these bacteria whereas others have no reaction. It just so happens that F Varium secretes butyrate. So? To implicate butyrate as a cause of UC is completely ridiculous and goes against a MOUNTAIN of established research of the BENEFITS of butyrate such as:
I could go on and on with this. One study even tries to quantify the reaction of butyrate as a consequence rather than cause of healing using butyrate generated by resistant starches. If it's a consequence then what why does the healing occur with resistant starch included in the diet?
So please people do a little research before everyone goes bonkers about
trying to show that butyrate somehow causes UC lesions. As you can see
this is not the case in a lot of studies. I myself have even employed the use of butyrate enemas, however I never got better on them. I didn't get noticeably worse on them and I didn't start any new bleeding on them. I just didn't like how they sting. I wanted to be able to adjust the PH but never got around to going that far. Now supposedly the butyrate you buy is different from the butyrate you create in the colon. Fine. I'll try psyllium husk for butyrate production. I've been on that for a long long time and have never been out of remission since then. It didn't single handedly induce my remission. But I clearly didn't get worse because of it. From the report that quincy points out, I'd be in a full flare by now with the high amounts of butyrate I product daily. I ingest 50 grams of butyrate producing fiber a day. Clearly in my case butyrate doesn't cause lesions. I feel sorry for the people in japan that react so badly to butyrate for surely their future is wrought with colon cancer since butyrate is one of the main things the colon uses to resist cancer.
My guess would be it's a combo of the type of butyrate this F Varium bacteria is producing and the persons genetic susceptibility to tolerate it. Being allergic or intolerant to butyrate would be almost unthinkably bad. For those on the SCD diet they would probably hold up this F Varium as their Devil and rally around it as the cause of all things IBD and arrange their diets to avoid feeding such. And actually they do by avoiding the sugars that do feed this F Varium. But that hasn't worked out for everyone now has it. The reason why is because for those that don't respond well or at all to the SC Diet don't have any issues with butyrate. For according to the SC Diet I should be dead by now or had my colon out. I'm doing almost the opposite and have good reason to. But we know that actually the SC diet is actually better for those with crohns than UC. That's been admitted to by the author herself in her book. The reason why is because butyrate should be your priority, not something to avoid. If you happen to be one of the japanese genetic outter fringe poor souls that reacts poorly to butyrate, um, good luck with that. I'd imagine they loose their colons and suffer from very high rates of colon cancer. Incidently the japanese researchers point out that this F Varium bacteria are invasive and get inside the colon cells and there they secrete butyate. I'd imagine that is not where the body expects butyrate production to be and thus you get inflammation as well. This would be like swallowing these bacteria and having them colonize the stomach area where they start to produce large amounts of butyrate in an area of the digestive tract that isn't used to nor wants this amount of butyrate.
location. It looks like they want us to also get the idea that too much butyrate is a bad thing. So is water. I'm sure there is a therapeutic range for such. At the 50 grams a day of butyrate producing starch I ingest, I feel great. And most of us here have injested psyllium husk and inulin without incident. I have more about
this in another thread about
You'll also notice that these bacteria got through the mucus barrier. Does anyone need a refresher on the importance of the mucus barrier?
And this bacteria is only 1 of a few others that they've shown give suseptibility to colitic type lesions. Antibiotics don't completely cure this condition. There are other elements. If UC were like c difficle I think we'd know that by now as so many combinations of antibiotics have been tried on it. Sure there are the few reports here and there but RARELY do you hear of long term success of antibiotics. If only that were true. Yet for 50 years they have tried every antibiotic known to man against IBD and nothing has worked long term in this category for many people. Those are the facts. Don't want to sugar coat it. Just don't be so dissappointed WHEN your symptoms come back. Even for those that KNOW their colitis is caused by bacteria, they have a fairly high relapse rate even with the correct antibiotic. Guess who isn't paying attention to the mucus barrier? Need I remind you it's NORMAL for people to harbor c difficile and other potentially harmful bacteria in their colons WITHOUT any sort of symptoms because of a properly functioning mucus barrier that can keep it from doing bad things. Now if you take antibiotics that are wiping out these bacteria in mass numbers with multiple wide spectrum antibiotics, how is that different from having a properly functioning mucus barrier in the colon that keeps the body ignorant of its bowel contents?
Post Edited (Horus) : 10/6/2007 1:07:39 AM (GMT-6)