Is Carbohydrate Restriction the Ultimate Cure for Acid Reflux?

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Norm1
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Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 326
   Posted 8/22/2005 7:46 AM (GMT -7)   
Has anyone tried carbohydrate restriction for relief from GERD? I would very much be interested in hearing from people who have tried this approach and what their results were.
 
I have found and documented, in my new book, evidence that the consumption of excess carbohydrates is the root cause of GERD and by reducing your carbohydrate consumption you can completely eliminate acid reflux with out drugs. This is the only dietary approach that I am aware of, that really works and it only takes a couple of days. I believe this approach will soon be well recognized as the ultimate cure for heartburn. I am curreltly in discussions with Will Yancy, the primary author on a small clinical study showing that reducing carbs can cure heartburn. My book (that I cannot list here) explains why this works and tailors low carb dieting to the treatment of GERD.

If you tried this approach, please share your experiences.

Thanks,

Dr. Norm


Norm1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 326
   Posted 8/23/2005 2:25 PM (GMT -7)   
Hello, My question for the day is "How bad do you want to stop hurting?"

Here is one example of the types of things others (on low carb boards mostly) are posting concening the low carb approach to treat acid reflux.

"Originally Posted by bonnie e
Its surely frustrating to see all the expensive heartburn prescriptions
being written. We used to by Rolaids in the 24 pack at Costco. Haven't taken
ONE since we started low carb. But, you never hear things like that from the
'experts' in the media. Wish there were some way to get the word out to
people. The drug companies would throw a tizzy if people realized the truth."

The number of these posts is extensive and are very similar in content. Google "low carb heartburn" or "low carb GERD". Are people unaware of these accounts or just choose not to try this approach? I would be interested in hearing from GERD suffers.

Norm1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 326
   Posted 8/23/2005 2:38 PM (GMT -7)   
Hello,
In the interest of getting the word out that there is a better way to treat GERD, here are some additional posts. I have included the positive responses and (in fairness) those from individuals that did not have the same luck. Those who did not have a positive reponse may have complicating conditions, differences in how they digest food or (I suspect in some cases) cheated too much or consumed "hidden carbs". For what it's worth, enjoy.

Dr Norm


krs10ne
I have noticed that when I eat lo carb, I dont have heartburn (acid reflux), where on weight watchers, or no diet at all I was constantly popping tums or zantac.
________________________________________
potatofree
Yep. I used to get up every night to take a second dose of Gaviscon, or I'd lay there suffering with my head propped up the rest of the night.

Within a few of days on low-carb, I was able to give the rest of thelast bottle to a friend who told me I was going to kill myself on Atkins! :lol:
________________________________________
momto4boys
Too many carbs give me heartburn also. Blech! I guess it was my body's way of telling me to "stop it!" :lol:
________________________________________
3shewolf8
Yes!!!! I used to get heartburn all of the time, almost on a daily basis, one of the first things that I noticed on this wol, except for the weight loss, was the loss of heatburn, I can eat anything low carb and never get heartburn, when I make a low carb taco salad, I can put hot salsa, and jalapeno peppers all over it, it tastes so wonderful, and not a bit of heartburn at all!! Isn't it just great??? I love spicy food, and now I can eat the spices, and even all of that wonderful, real butter, and not a bit of heartburn...I LOVE this WOE!!!
________________________________________
Pollyanna
For sure! I used to wake up nights with it. What a relief.
________________________________________
Moonwalker
im the opposite.. i have really bad acid reflux :(
________________________________________

jareddo10
I used to take 5 or six tums every night. But since I started lcing I don't ever need them.
I didn't even think about it until I read this thread.
________________________________________
patricia52
I was on prescription medication for my heartburn. The FIRST DAY I noticed a difference. And the end of acid reflux also helped my asthma (I think the acid was irritating my windpipe).
________________________________________
Gailew
I was on 2 diff meds that weren't entirely controlling the prob, when I started to low carb. Now I'm off the meds and rarely have any prob at all.
________________________________________
PlayDoh
my cousin experienced this but i still need the occasional antacid, tums, and pepto. the coffee and hb eggs give me major indigestion and grease from the meats aggravate my gallbladder sometimes.
________________________________________
LC-Laur
I used to live on Tums (well... generic Tums ;) ), but now I've had the same bottle over a year and haven't touched it even once since starting low carb!
________________________________________
Vel
My big bottle of Rolaids was my best friend, especially at night! I haven't touched it since I have been on CAD and actually have to dust it now where it sits on my bedside table :)

Norm1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 326
   Posted 8/23/2005 2:59 PM (GMT -7)   
Hi,
These were some that I copied and pasted some time ago. Fair question though. Let me either find the links if I can or round up some others with the links.

Dr Norm

Norm1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 326
   Posted 8/23/2005 3:26 PM (GMT -7)   
Hi,
I found some more with links.
This is a sample of ordinary people reporting relief from GERD on a low carb diet. Hopefully these links function still as I did collect these some time ago. Later tonight, I will do a fresh search and post some more with new links to ensure you can be see the sources.

I do beleive this phenomenon will catch on as more people become aware that there is a cure. Finally, there is a way to beat GERD that is proven to be a more healthy way of eating in a growing number of science based, physician led studies.

I have included some stories of regular people who have published their own experiences on internet bulletin boards. The vast majority of people (but not everyone) report that their GERD are eliminated after going on a low carbohydrate diets. I am including some of these stories for your reading. Importantly, there are no controls on who publishes what on these boards and they cannot take the place of controlled clinical studies or even well documented case studies by physicians reporting on their own patients. Still, I think these stories are worth mentioning. I have included the link where I found each of the stories. I have been able to go back and find the stories (note at the time I collected them) and so I hope most of the links still work is you care to visit the boards where these stories came from. 


I'm sorry we can not post links to other message boards.
I was under the understanding your last post was copied and pasted from HW.
We need to be careful also on posting something that may have a copyright  



Post Edited By Moderator (~Jennifer~) : 8/23/2005 4:33:01 PM (GMT-6)


vanessa 418
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 84
   Posted 8/23/2005 3:33 PM (GMT -7)   
Hi doctor Norman, I would just like to say, to support your claims that I totally agree with you regarding carbs. When I was a teenager and first started with heartburn, it was always after eating pastry or thick bread. I never got heartburn from anything else. I could eat any spicey foods, drink anything. Since putting weight on because of the menopause the heartburn became so bad that I ended up on the PPI`s. When I get back from holiday I am definitely going to follow his regime. Thanks for all your advice I truly think you care and are not just trying to sell your book. Vanessa  
 

Norm1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 326
   Posted 8/23/2005 3:36 PM (GMT -7)   
Thanks Vanessa and others for your support. I now understand about the links to other sites as well. Just trying to learn and follow the rules.

It is really time, though for this message to be heard. It really works. The other stuff doesn't. It's that simple.

Shoreman
New Member


Date Joined Aug 2005
Total Posts : 7
   Posted 8/23/2005 8:05 PM (GMT -7)   
Interesting thread! In June I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes. I immediately changed my diet drastically. This included reducing my carb intake to between 100 and 120 grams daily. I have lost 16 pounds with this dietary change (and exercise).
During this time, however my chest fluttering (written about in another thread) and nausea have INCREASED greatly. If it is truly GERD that is causing the fluttering, nausea, and occasional heartburn, this would seem to dispute the idea that reducing carbs will help or heal GERD. Of course it could be possible that the carb reduction does not effect all in the same way.
Any thoughts?

Norm1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 326
   Posted 8/23/2005 10:07 PM (GMT -7)   
Shoreman,
Thanks for that reply. According to my plan, you likely did not go low enough in the beginning. You need to go much lower to stop the reflux. In your case, try 25 grams per day for a couple of days. Only after the initial "decompression" step can you begin adding some back. You're on the right track though.


Dr. Norm

Teri16
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 5230
   Posted 8/23/2005 10:51 PM (GMT -7)   
Dr Norm,

I never asked and I don't know if you've already mentioned...but what are your credentials? You call yourself Dr Norm? Are you a medical Dr.? Just curious since you are 'sort of prescribing' what people should do...

I'm just very cautious on this forum, or elsewhere, suggesting what people should, or shouldn't do, especially when you do not know their past and/or present medical history.

No disrespect meant, just wondering. Could changing the diet in this fashion cause any problems with any other medical conditions that you are aware of?

Teri :)
"Because he is he and I am I."......E. V. Lucas

"I Hope You Dance".............LeeAnn Womack
 
Please allow HealingWell to continue helping others by donating:


Norm1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 326
   Posted 8/23/2005 11:53 PM (GMT -7)   
Teri,
Thanks for your question.

I am not the first on this board to suggest trying something new.

As indicated in my profile, I am a Ph.D. microbiologist with 20 years of experience in research and drug development. My expertise in this area comes from my education in medical microbiology, my interest in GERD, as a patient who was not being helped by the medical community in solving a serious medical condition that I was confronted with for many years, and my research into a cure for this condition culminating in my book "Heartburn Cured The Low Carb Miracle" (not in any way a promotion, you asked).

I am not a medical doctor and like your your site, my book recommends that each patient make an informed decison based on all the information they receive in conjunction with the expert advice from thier own physician. Thanks for bringing this up and providing an opportunity to make my credentials and position clear.

As far as my recommending this dietary approach my suggestion is based first and foremost on my personal experience with low carb dieting and my own releif of acid reflux using this approach. I feel this approach needs to be discussed and feel it is acceptable to recommend it given the disclaimer above and the philosophy of your site. Reduced carbohydrate dieting is not new. This type of diet has been around for years and as many as 30 million people in the US have tried some form of reduced carb dieting.

Others on your board recommend many different approaches, products and procedures based on what they have heard, tried or been recommended to by someone else. In my case, I threw in a little research as well.

I remain open to discsuss the merrits of all other approaches as well.

Thanks,
Dr. Norm

VV
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 1849
   Posted 8/24/2005 8:15 PM (GMT -7)   
Dr Norm,
In support of your claim, I also think you may be on to something. I have realized that high carb intake causes reflux problems sometimes with me. But, not 100% sure if this presents the same problems in others, or whether less carb intake will eradicate reflux in everyone.

I wish I could reveal the results of your experiment, but I haven't tried it and not sure if I will. Shoreman expressed losing 16lbs w/carb dietary change & exercise. I am not in a position of losing a pound, so not really willing to drastically reduce my carb intake. I will check w/my Nutritionist on the subject.

Dr. Norm, I respect the fact that you're here and sharing info and personal experiences w/ everyone. I don't personally believe that carb reduction for the average person would hurt. Probably would actually help most of us in one way or another. I would definately challenge your theory for a week if I had more flesh on my body just to know the true outcome for me. No pain or money involved, you could certainly count me in.

This Gerd has become a big problem for many of us. I have tried many methods of ceasing my meds, but haven't found anything yet to keep me from continuing them. I think most of us may already have a good idea that trigger food intake is the culprit for reflux. Question:
Are we really willing to completely give up those food items? My answer is honestly No, not forever. Case & Point: I have been doing extremely well lately, but today, I had Chinese Food, love Low Mein(spelling ?)(noodles). I didn't pig out, just enough to satisfy my appetite, but knew I would probably pay for it later and still ate it. Well, I'm paying for it now, hopefully, my maalox will work. It was probably not worth the reflux, but it was pretty good.

I will be stronger & better tomorrow!

Vanessa

Norm1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 326
   Posted 8/24/2005 11:16 PM (GMT -7)   
Vanessa,
Thanks for your post and your kind words. I can see your concern. I honestly don't know what happens when someone who is very lean goes on low carb. Do they loose weight? You might loose a couple of pounds. I wish I had a bit of that problem. For me, I need to watch my weight and treat my GERD, so low carb is just right for me. Like you, I give in to carb cravings (luckily you don't have many after being on it for a bit) about once or twice a week and go over my roughly 60 grams per day. In Santa Monica last night, I had an appointment, and running late, spotted the only place near by that served food. It was a Taco Bell. I said what the hell and had a taco and buritto. It was great by the way. I wondered if I would get reflux later last night, but was happy when I did not. On low carb you generally have to cheat more than just one high carb meal. It tends to return after one or two full days of eating high carb.

I do believe that the real trigger food is carbs, but we tend to associate the last thing we ate with the reflux we currently feel instead of thinking about what we ate for the last 24 hours. That is why people who find relief with low carb no longer recognize any trigger foods except carbs. Go back to too many carbs and the reflux returns. I can drink coffee (I drink about 3-4 cups per day), alcohol (no sugar sweetened mixes), hot peppers, brocolli and other foods that I have head were triggers with no ill effect. I really am free from this disease as long as I keep to my daily carb levels.

Keep up your great work supporting those on this site. You really do a great job encouraging others and sharing your thoughts.

Dr Norm

hershel
New Member


Date Joined Aug 2005
Total Posts : 8
   Posted 8/27/2005 9:14 AM (GMT -7)   
Hi I am new to this forum . I reading these postings I totally agree with Dr. Norm's opinion of the carb theory and acid reflux. I do know that acid reflux or GERD is aggravated by pastries and breads or high fat or fried and sugary foods. Breads and or flour based foods are highly acidic and high in carbs, so when your upper GI system is over acidic then BAM!!! you get over production of hydrochloric acid from your tiny proton pumps in your stomach! Also it is highly probable that your LES (lower esophageal sphincter) is relaxed and not closing all the way which can allow the gastric acid to reflux back into the esophagus. I would estimate that about 85-90% of people with GERD or acid reflux have Hiatal Hernias which can causes a myriad of symptomatic problems including: tightness in the chest or sternum area, feeling like there is a lump in the throat , burning in the back of the throat, lump in the chest under the sternum, and those are the mild symptoms. The worst symptoms can be vaso-vagal responses that can cause pvc's or pac's (premature ventricular contractions, premature arterial contractions) and other arrhythmias in the heart (which you should be seen immediately by a doctor if you experience these symptoms) that are triggered by irritation to the vagal nerve (10th cranial nerve) that runs from the scull down the side of the esophagus all the way down past the stomach and can be irritated by over acidity from the aforementioned foods. This over stimulation of the vagal nerve is a result of the erosion in the esophagus and or pressure on the nerve from a full stomach and twisting or protrusion of the stomach through the diaphragm due to a hiatal hernia or a problem with LES not closing properly which over a period of time allow the natural hydrochloric acid in your stomach to erode the thin lining in the esophagus exposing the vagal nerve and other various symptoms, the list goes on!.

Norm1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 326
   Posted 8/28/2005 1:02 AM (GMT -7)   
hershel,
I would be interested in hearing more about the vaso-vagal responses. What other functions are controlled by this vagan nerve? Why does it extend past the stomach?

Thanks,
Dr Norm

Jocaste
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2005
Total Posts : 72
   Posted 8/28/2005 3:44 AM (GMT -7)   
I have suffered with a hiatus hernia and acid reflux for ten years. I do not take medication because it did not work for me. Even though I have made all kinds of dietary changes over the years I still suffer on a daily basis.When really stressed, nothing I do helps but I have found that fresh carrot and apple juice does eleviate the heartburn.

I beleive that the constant strain of coping with this uncomfortable state is causing me anxiety and depression but I really believe that it is diet related.

I am very interested in trying the low-carb diet--and I would like to report any progress daily if Dr. Norm is interested.

Many thanks--

hershel
New Member


Date Joined Aug 2005
Total Posts : 8
   Posted 8/28/2005 7:32 AM (GMT -7)   
Hi Dr. Norm , Here is the primary function of the Vagal Nerve:

The vagus nerve is the longest of the cranial nerve. Its name is derived from Latin meaning "wandering". True to its name the vagus nerve wanders from the brain stem through organs in the neck, thorax and abdomen. The nerve exits the brain stem through rootlets in the medulla that are caudal to the rootlets for the ninth cranial nerve. The rootlets form the tenth cranial nerve and exit the cranium via the jugular foramen. Similar to the ninth cranial nerve there are two sensory ganglia associated with the vagus nerve. They are the superior and inferior vagal ganglia. The branchial motor component of the vagus nerve originates in the medulla in the nucleus ambiguus. The nucleus ambiguus contributes to the vagus nerve as three major branches which leave the nerve distal to the jugular foramen. The pharyngeal branch travels between the internal and external carotid arteries and enters the pharynx at the upper border of the middle constrictor muscle. It supplies the all the muscles of the pharynx and soft palate except the stylopharyngeas and tensor palati. These include the three constrictor muscles, levator veli palatini, salpingopharyngeus, palatopharyngeus and palatoglossal muscles. The superior laryngeal nerve branches distal to the pharyngeal branch and descends lateral to the pharynx. It divides into an internal and external branch. The internal branch is purely sensory and will be discussed later. The external branch travel to the cricothyroid muscle which it supplies. The third branch is the recurrent branch of the vagus nerve and it travels a different path on the left and right sides of the body. On the right side the recurrent branch leave the vagus anterior to the subclavian artery and wraps back around the artery to ascend posterior to it. The right recurrent branch ascends to a groove between the trachea and esophagus. The left recurrent branch leaves the vagus nerve on the aortic arch and loops posterior to the arch to ascend through the superior mediastinum. The left recurrent branch ascends along a groove between the esophagus and trachea. Both recurrent branches enter the larynx below the inferior constrictor and supply intrinsic muscles of larynx excluding the cricothyroid. The visceromotor or parasympathetic component of the vagus nerve originates from the dorsal motor nucleus of the vagus in the dorsal medulla. These cells give rise to axons that travel in the vagus nerve. The visceromotor part of the vagus innervates ganglionic neurons which are located in or adjacent to each target organ. The target organs in the head-neck include glands of the pharynx and larynx (via the pharyngeal and internal branches). In the thorax branches go to the lungs for bronchoconstriction, the esophagus for peristalsis and the heart for slowing of heart rate. In the abdomen branches enter the stomach, pancreas, small intestine, large intestine and colon for secretion and constriction of smooth muscle. The viscerosensory component of the vagus are derived from nerves that have receptors in the abdominal viscera, esophagus, heart and aortic arch, lungs, bronchia and trachea. Nerves in the abdomen and thorax join the left and right vagus nerves to ascend beside the left and right common carotid arteries. Sensation from the mucous membranes of the epiglottis, base of the tongue, aryepiglottic folds and the upper larynx travel via the internal laryngeal nerve. Sensation below the vocal folds of the larynx is carried by the recurrent laryngeal nerves. The cell bodies that give rise to the peripheral processes of the visceral sensory nerves of the vagus are located in the inferior vagal ganglion. The central process exits the ganglion and enters the brain stem to terminate in the nucleus solitarius. The general sensory components of the tenth cranial nerve conduct sensation from the larynx, pharynx, skin the external ear and external auditory canal, external surface of the tympanic membrane, and the meninges of the posterior cranial fossa. Sensation from the larynx travels via the recurrent laryngeal and internal branches of the vagus to reach the inferior vagal ganglion. Sensory nerve fibers from the skin and tympanic membrane travel with auricular branch of the vagus to reach the superior vagal ganglion. The central processes from both ganglia enter the medulla and terminate in the nucleus of the spinal trigeminal tract. SO your autonomic nervous system. As a result of a hiatal hernia, GERD or acid reflux and erosion to the esophagus the vagal nerve is hyperactively stimulated, which are called vaso-vagal responses your heart rate and blood pressure drop, which reduces blood flow to your brain. This causes a feeling of warmth, lightheadedness, and dimming of vision and hearing. If the vasovagal response had progressed further reducing blood flow to the brain you would have fainted (vasovagal syncope). Frequent triggers of fainting include pain, trauma, fatigue, blood loss or prolonged, motionless standing. I hope this helps!

Norm1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 326
   Posted 8/28/2005 9:54 AM (GMT -7)   
Joecaste,
Thanks,
I would really like that. This forum is really heating up with so many great ideas being exchanged. In the meantime, enough of the apple juice. That is the worst possible thing to ingest if you have heartburn. As for the carrots, also limit and just used grated carrots (keeps the amount of carbs in checl) on our salads as they do have a fair amount of carbs.

Take Care,
Dr Norm

Jocaste
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2005
Total Posts : 72
   Posted 8/31/2005 4:41 AM (GMT -7)   
To Dr Norm
 
Thanks for the advice about the carrot juice--
 
Awaiting your reply I had, for the first time, (I have never tried a low-carb diet)a very low carb evening meal on Monday (Chicken, rocket, cucumber and oil and vinegar dressing followed by a plain yogurt). I was very surprised at the way I felt after eating this--satisfied yet not bloated as usual.I went to bed that night feeling more comfortable that I usually do. There were no signs of HB after eating and I had a peaceful night with just a twinge of reflux--much to my relief and astonishment!
 
I want to begin your experiment tomorrow. However, 25 grams is very low for somebody who needs fibre in order not to be horrifically constipated--(another mal function of my digestive system).
 
Might it be possible to have protein and salad for two meal and toast(1peice and a cup of tea to bump start the system in the morning)I'm familiar with the low-carb theories--is it really necessary to go as low as 25g to prevent reflux.
 
thanks
Jocaste
 
 

Merc29
New Member


Date Joined Sep 2005
Total Posts : 1
   Posted 9/1/2005 6:44 PM (GMT -7)   
Dr. Norm
My son (26 yrs old) has suffered for years with severe acid reflux.  He has taken many different prescriptions and drinks pepto right from the bottle.  He has been on a very very low carb diet and mentioned today that he is no longer bothered by acid reflux.  This prompted me to do a little research and I came across your post.  What do you attribute this to?  He thinks it is because carbs are sugar and the bacteria (pyloria?) feeds on it and keeps the cycle going.  I am curious to learn more.

Norm1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 326
   Posted 9/1/2005 8:33 PM (GMT -7)   
Jocaste,
Great news that you have had some success! Congrats. Keep at it and see if you can find a substitute for that bread in the morning (like low carb cereal, etc) or consider it a cheat and understand that it contributes to your overall carb count and potentially symptoms.

Merc29,
Thanks for your note. I would have to agree with your son's assessment, but not pyloria per se. You can see some of my other posts for some details on my theory. Great news that your son is better.

On the 25 grams a day. The answer is no, you do not have to stay at that level. After stopping heartburn, you can gradually increase daily carbs. Can't include all the details here, but you get the idea.


Take care,
Dr Norm

Norm1
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 326
   Posted 9/2/2005 10:50 AM (GMT -7)   
jocaste,
Try and stay away from the toast. Also, check the yogurt to be sure it's low carb. Even the flavored low carb (Dannon) is lower than plain yogurt. But the pain (with only splenda added if needed is still pretty low, about 7 grams if I recall). The low carb yogurt is about 4 grams. I am very pleased with your early results. Now lets see about getting rid of those minor symptoms that you had - that twinge. As for the fiber, luckily high fiber foods tend to have few carbs because our body does not breakdown fiber and the microbes have some trouble as well. Most of the fiber foods are fairly inert and you don't have to limit them.

Dr Norm

Teri16
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 5230
   Posted 9/2/2005 12:20 PM (GMT -7)   
Hi, welcome back Dr. Norm!
 
Hi jocaste!  That cucumber and I would have had a war lol - but some people tolerate foods that others can't. :)  Try eating something like Kashi cereal for breakfast, that's a very healthy fiber cereal, or something similar and that will help keep your body in sync.
 
Hi Jen! tongue
 
Hugs, Teri :)
"Because he is he and I am I."......E. V. Lucas

"I Hope You Dance".............LeeAnn Womack
 
Please allow HealingWell to continue helping others by donating:


patsprnk
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2005
Total Posts : 51
   Posted 9/2/2005 4:28 PM (GMT -7)   
Hello all, CUCUMBER devil   I love them yeah   thats what I grow in my garden the big ones & pickel ones & tomatoes I love them but some days I can eat them no problem then other days skull   What is the deal? Do are stomaches have minds of their own yeah   Untill later Pat :-)

patsprnk
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2005
Total Posts : 51
   Posted 9/2/2005 5:10 PM (GMT -7)   
Hi Teri, since you are always helping me find web sites that its helpful I have one that you may already know of but they are gonna start showing real sugery one on gerd Laparoscopic on Sept 7 at 4pm and others. its www.medhelp.org. Pat
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