does anybody know of a substitute for an andrographis ???
had a terrible reaction while applying Buhner protocol, depression is gone though does anybody know of a substitute for an andrographis ???
does anybody know of a substitute for an andrographis ???
I do not but I don't think it's crucial. Definitely continue with the other herbs and maybe someone else will offer a substitute...
I switched to Siberian Ginseng (Eleuthero) after I experienced liver pain with andrographis. The SG gave me no reactions, good or bad. I am back on andrographis now (doing a rotation protocol) and it is fine. It seems that not only the herb but also the stage in our treatment that we take it can alter its effects.
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I searched for references on the Buhner Healing Lyme site. He didn’t offer a substitute for it. In one post, he mentioned Stephania was a substitute for Japanese knotweed but not for andrographis.
In this 2016 Q&A, he says “I have gone back and forth with the herb for two reasons: 1) it only helps around 60% of the people who use it and 2) there are severe allergic reactions to it in about one percent of users. Nevertheless, it does offer significant help for many and does help most to some extent. It is the best antibacterial for lyme, at least that we have seen in clinical practice.“
It’s not essential, to my knowledge, and I am not aware of a substitute for it. Are you taking knotweed and cat’s claw?
Hope you are okay now. What was the reaction like? I never tried it for fear of hives, but I did finally try Lomatium and have been fine with it. That one can cause a bad rash, too.
In this 2016 Q&A, he says “I have gone back and forth with the herb for two reasons: 1) it only helps around 60% of the people who use it and 2) there are severe allergic reactions to it in about one percent of users. Nevertheless, it does offer significant help for many and does help most to some extent. It is the best antibacterial for lyme, at least that we have seen in clinical practice.“
It’s not essential, to my knowledge, and I am not aware of a substitute for it. Are you taking knotweed and cat’s claw?
Hope you are okay now. What was the reaction like? I never tried it for fear of hives, but I did finally try Lomatium and have been fine with it. That one can cause a bad rash, too.
When I got bad headaches from andrographis, I switched to olive leaf extract to keep hitting chronic viruses. Some also use monolaurin. My doctor encouraged me to try andrographis again once I had stabilized, and the headaches dissipated after two weeks.
What was your reaction, and how can you tell it was from andrographis (as opposed to a herx or reaction to a different herb)? Not challenging your interpretation, just curious!
Lyme, bartonella, babesia, mycoplasma, EBV
Mold, MCAS, POTS, CFS/ME, HPA axis
Herbs, AmpCoil, DNRS, diet, nutrients, EOs
What was your reaction, and how can you tell it was from andrographis (as opposed to a herx or reaction to a different herb)? Not challenging your interpretation, just curious!
Lyme, bartonella, babesia, mycoplasma, EBV
Mold, MCAS, POTS, CFS/ME, HPA axis
Herbs, AmpCoil, DNRS, diet, nutrients, EOs
Thank you all for responses. I started core Buhner protocol for borrelia with some extended elements for neuroboreliosis and collagen support along with core protocol for chlamydia pneumoniae two weeks ago. everything was going well, meaning most of my neural symptoms (including depression and joint pains were gone in a few days period. Initially I was dosing of 800mg of andrographis 3 x daily. After about 10 days I had double a dosage (1600mg 3 x daily) and that was when the reaction kicked in: hives (skin rash) all over my body, initiated in upper torso, feeling really sick and fatigued. Initially I thought it might by herx reaction but I have not seen/read about skin rashes. I stopped andrographis and the rashes gradually subsided. I also started to feel better 24hrs after stopping the herb. I will give it some time and will try smaller dosage (600mg) and will see. I guess I don't know for certain if this was purely reaction to large dosage of andrographis or simply herx but I am convinced it is not reaction to any other herb from the protocols.
Post Edited (Jacek) : 9/10/2019 7:55:04 PM (GMT-6)
That's a lot. I never made it past 1200mg per day before I noticed my taste buds were irratated.
Hi Jacek - welcome to the forum.
if you'd like to share your 'story' with us, you can start your own thread...
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
if you'd like to share your 'story' with us, you can start your own thread...
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
skinny_joe, my sister and I (both sick with TBDs) tried andrographis last year and both of us lost our sense of taste. Everything tasted like cardboard. I'm sure it was the andrographis because it was the only thing both of us were using and we had started at the same time. The taste bud issue started about a month in for both of us and we had identical symptoms. I've not found too many others who had this reaction. You are one of the first I've heard to mention it affected your taste buds.
On buhnerhealinglyme, I see at least 3 people reported loss of taste. Buhner did not know why. All these people were on the core protocol (more than one herb), so they didn’t know for sure which was the cause. These were all old posts so don’t know if Buhner was ever told it was the andrographis.
http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/category/reactions/taste/
http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/category/reactions/taste/
Post Edited (WalkingbyFaith) : 9/11/2019 11:28:14 AM (GMT-6)
see anti-spirocheatal thread on lymenet . things i have found may include venom , chapparel , mimosa pudica in large doses ,neem , artemisinin, medical grade allicin , silver , oil of oregano...
i do not agree with buhner in that just cytokine reduction will produce lasting results....just temporary symptom relief .dragons blood worked well for me reducing inflammation. chop the roots the tree will fall
als /ms dx muscle wasting, vasculitis, vertigo etc etc
bvt began 11/15,
smartport install 5/16
1.25 yrs pulsed roceph with zith riffy alinia
,pk and supportive ivs
9 mo zhang bart tx
9+ month dr franz rife,
various parasite protocols iver/ herbal
from bed bound on o2 to keeping up with 5yo kiddo,
2 startups, + pt certified practicing apitherapist
i do not agree with buhner in that just cytokine reduction will produce lasting results....just temporary symptom relief .dragons blood worked well for me reducing inflammation. chop the roots the tree will fall
als /ms dx muscle wasting, vasculitis, vertigo etc etc
bvt began 11/15,
smartport install 5/16
1.25 yrs pulsed roceph with zith riffy alinia
,pk and supportive ivs
9 mo zhang bart tx
9+ month dr franz rife,
various parasite protocols iver/ herbal
from bed bound on o2 to keeping up with 5yo kiddo,
2 startups, + pt certified practicing apitherapist
Hi there. I know this is an old post. I am hoping you can tell me if you experienced a metallic taste alongside the taste loss. Were you on a high dose of andrographis?
Hi. Yes, old post but my sister and I still joke about the Thanksgiving meal we couldn’t taste at all. She was taking it too and had the same reaction. I just asked her if she remembers a metallic taste. She says she can’t remember exactly but it was a weird taste. I kind of had a weird taste too but I’m not sure if it was metallic. We were taking one 400mg pill a day. About three weeks to a month later was when we started being unable to taste anything. At all. Have you lost your sense of taste too? I’m curious.
Is eluthero different to andrographis?
Are the 4 main herbs Stephen Buhner originally recommended for borrelia as follows:
- Japanese knotweed
- Cats claw
- Andrographis
- Chinese skullcap
Thanks
Buhners recommendations changed over the years as he did more research and got feedback from hist partners herbal clinical practice
he originally started with:
-Japanese Knotweed
-Cat’ Claw
-Andrographis
he later dropped Andrographis - on the basis that he didn’t think it was as effective anti-spirochaetal herb as he had originally hoped ( some limited data on syphilis had been the main reason for using it ) - and because around 1% of people develop an allergic type reaction to it ( rash of welts all over the body )
later again he published the second edition of his “Healing Lyme” book that had much expanded protocols - these included some of the herbs mentioned in his first book - and some new ones - eg
kudzu root
gou teng
salvia militorhiza
chinese skullcap root
cordyceps
eleuthero
i had no unpleasant reactions to andrographis - and mainly found it helpful for reducing inflammation in the CNS - it was also a strong inducer of bile - which can be a good thing
eleuthero is a completely different herb- from a different plant family - mainly used for fatigue and to help immune function
kudzu and gou teng are probably the nearest in function to andrographis for the CNS inflammation reducing effect - but they seem to take a while to make a difference. neither are antispirochetal to my knowledge - but then - in my experience there are not many herbs that are sufficiently anti- spirochaetal to make a big difference on that front
maybe oil of oregano or other essential oils ( tread carefully - they are very potent - and may also disrupt the gut barrier or microbiome )
some broad antimicrobial herbs like cryptolepis or sida acuta likely have anti-spirochaetal effects - but i am not sure if we can get really effective doses / concentrations in tissues in practice - so may be best used alongside other more potent antimicrobials
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