DOES THIS SOUND LIKE BIPOLAR?

Diseases & Conditions Bipolar Disorder
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sad  Hello everyone my name is PJ and I'm new to the bipolar room.  My daughter is 16 and began acting out....skipping school, smoking, experimenting with drugs, and having mood swings that are shocking .  One minute she is fine and the next she is like satan.  She is cruel to people that love her the most and nice to people that she gets in trouble with.  Her problems have become so large that even her best friends parents will no longer let their daughter be around her.  sad
I must be honest I'm afraid to be in my own home.....just this afternoon she went into a rage because her Dad didn't buy her a camera phone...went on and on about how he doesn't care about anyone other than himself blah blah blah then stomped off up the stairs saying she was going to kill herself.  A few minutes later she came down with a magazine which she showed her older brother and said " there is an article in there you should read", he asked which one and she said the one about the girl that murdered her parents............am I wrong or was that a back handed threat?  She is currently under a Pdoc and a therapist who say they belive it is bipolar she is on serequel and something to make her sleep.  Help if you can with what you know.  Much appreciated!!!!
 
Thanks
PJ
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Well, this is really not enough to go on, bipolar disorder is very complex.   Sometimes, regular teenage acting out can look like  it, but that's not enough.   How many times has she seen her pdoc?  Does anyone in the family/extended family have the disease?  Hardly ever does someone have it without at least one family member having it, or having lifelong clinical depression; it is inheritied.  Has she undergone tests for it?  (long questionnaire).  BP is hard to diagnose properly.  Very rarely is it diagnosed accurately on the first visit.  But, her behaviour does sound like a BP teen, however,  she is at the prime time for experimenting with drugs, too, which can radically change behaviour for the worse.  Are you positive she isn't doing that?  Has she started hanging around new people?   BP disorder also causes drug/alcohol use, that's part of the disease, too, so it could go either way.

When did this start?   Was it all of a sudden?  What was she like as a child?   What was she like a year ago?

Besides the anger, irritability and unfortunately "hating" parents, which is present normally in many teens, does she have unrealist belief in her abilities?  delusions of grandeur?  Talking so fast you can barely keep up, and talking excessively, jumping from one subject to the next in the same breath?  Heavily sexually active?  Spending money out of control?  Trouble with teachers?  Bad grades?  Fits of anger so bad she's breaking things? 

The insomnia is a good clue, too.  What other med is she on besides Seroquel.  I'm curious if she is on a mood stabilizer.  The Seroquel is for sleep/psychosis.

I would definitely tell her pdoc immediately about her comment and her fit, she sounds very unstable and should probably be in teh hospital so they can stabilize her quickly.   Seroquel won't do that completely, it will sedate her, but that's different.  It helps with mania, but needs to be used with a mood stabilizer such as lithium, Depakote, Topamax, Trileptal, Tegretol, or Abilify.  Problem with Abilify is it takes too long to stabilize a bad mania, such as hers. 

Of course I can't tell you for sure if she is or not, but her behaviour so far sounds like BP disorder.

I do hope you get a handle on her quickly before she hurts herself (there are other ways besides suicide and suicide is when we're depressed.   Teens often threaten suicide even without mental illness, just out of anger at parents.

I suggest that you SERIOUSLY study bipolar disorder, learn as much as you can, there is great info all over the net.   There is MUCH more to it than just the "highs and lows" that most basic articles tell of.  I also suggest that you stick around here and hear  the true, more intracate things that happen from us; I'm sure many people will be answering this thread.

Here is an awesome article about bipolar, detailed from the National Institute of Mental Health (the big dogs, lol)

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bipolar.cfm#intro

If I can be of any more help, let me know.

Shannon

Variety is the spice of life, BP is the key

Post Edited (psychnurse) : 9/10/2005 5:59:02 AM (GMT-6)

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Hello and welcome. Well sounds like you have a major problem going on. Everything you said about your daughter is things I have done to my parents. ( Never mentioned directly or indirectly killing them) I look back now and I can really put it all together. my parents just though I was a spoiled teenager going through a phase. I started smoking cigarettes, smoking pot, drinking alcohol which in turn caused my moods to worsen , so it is hard to say. However knowing what I know now, my nan ( my dad's mom) and dad , I believe are truly Bipolar. i was also very sneaky. I would sneak out late at night and get home right before school. I was messing sround with boys, but not till 16. Heck everyone I knew already had sex before then, I was scared.i used to cry alot as a teen  and alsways thought of committing suicide. Then hours later i would be fine. My grades however were abosulety above and beyond. I was a perfectionist. My parents couldn't understand how I could miss so much school and maitain perfect grades. I used to say i can teach myself this stuff. It was boring to me. It felt like we went so slow. I am 27 about to be 28, i remember all the stuff I did then and put it together now. I wasn't dx until 2003. But the only reason my mom never took me to a pdoc is because she thought I was being aa normal teenager. I really wasn't that bad of a kid. I know i used tio think what I was experiencing was normal. Until I got with other friends. I noticed that i was different. Ask your daughter what she thinks about. I think about 20 million things in a matter of second. I also jump from one thing to the next in the same sentence my mom tells me that alll the time, orshe will say so slow down.Half the  time  I have to ask her what i was saying because I forgot. I ramble on and on. Jason tells me that too that I jump from one thing to the next. That drives him crazy.I never would tell anyone I wanted to kill myself, i used to cut myself though. I would use whatever. You know what I never remembered doing that until recently. I don't know why thta is. Maybe i supressed it or something.
I also used to be real close to my mom , then i started to drift away and isolate myself from everyone. I hope some of my expereinces helps, or makes you a little more aware. Shannon is right, racing thoughts, drug/alcohol abuse and promiscuit are very common amogst BP's. I am a rapid cylcer , so my moods continually change , sometimes just in a matter of seconds. Let us know if you ned anything else. We are all very supportive and here most of the time. Thanks for litening to my very summed up but still long experiences, Nickie
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Nickie and Shannon thank you for your quick responses! I too at first thought she was just going through a phase (I have 11 other children) and then realized the mood swings were very severe so took her for therapy three months ago. The other drug she is on is Celexa. Like you Nickie her moods change in rapid cycle....two hours after her threats she was on the sofa hugging me. I suppose she is hanging out with new people but I think that is because she has lost all of her friends.......their parents don't want them hanging out with her. They just see her as a bad kid and don't want it rubbing off on theirs. I of course don't know what she is telling the Pdoc......she is quite dishonest. Regarding family history, my only sibling is an alcoholic/drug addict that was diagnosed with Bipolar in rehab.(no wonder she drank so much NyQuil) I recall her having panic attacks when we were children but not so much was known back then. Many of my Moms family were alcoholics, however my Grandmother was not but really had some mental health issues of course not diagnosed back in the day. I forgot to mention in my previous post that Cait has also been cutting......I don't know what to do or how to respond to her. I too think she should be hospitalized but my husband is not too keen on that. I am going to talk to her therapist on Monday and let her know what she's been up too and see if she feels that Cait is in danger as well as her family. I will read through and listen to what you're all going through and hopefully get some insight. Cait has not been tested yet but her Pdoc plans to do so as she is pretty sure thats what it is. Thanks again PJ
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She does indeed sound bipolar, and there is family history.   My concern is her being on Celexa.  Did her pdoc prescribe that??????  SSRIs are the absolute WORST thing a bipolar can take.  They cause mania.  Violent episodes and psychosis are very possible.  I for the life of me do not understand why some pdocs continue to prescribe them!   And she's not taking a mood stabilizer on top of it!   no wonder she's out of control.  Actually, all antidepressants can be dangerous, they need extremely close monitoring and should be discontinued as soon as manic symptoms start.  Welbutrin is a little safer, it's not as strong and doesn't work like the SSRIs.  Lamictal is a very good one to use for BPs, it's actually a mood stabilizer that has an antidepressant effect on BPs.  but, it is not effective on controlling mania by itself, it's used with another mood stabilizer, so there is little/no chance of inducing mania.

How many times has she seen this pdoc?   Not even tested yet?  I'm going to give you my opinion, you really should seek another pdoc more informed on bipolar and its treatment.  Shopping around for pdocs and therapists is very common, in fact you should expect it.  Just because one is a pdoc, doesn't mean they are up on the latest things, or are even competent in some cases. 

Ok, I've said my peace.  One thing about us is bluntness, flowering things up is not our specialty, lol, so no offense intended in any way.

Variety is the spice of life, BP is the key

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Gotta agree with Shannon. However you probably yourself didn't know about what type of meds do what. This could be a reason why she might be acting out a little more than usual. Get her off celexa and onto something else. Other SSRI's are prozac, effexor... someone else will add those are just the 2 I was on. Both caused mania in me, and I freaked out. Although your teenager might like the way it makes her feel. Being manic is sometimes like being happy. Well the way we can sometimes see. it. It is like we are full of energy and feel oblivous to the world ( my feelings on that). However being manic is not being happy. I hope that makes sense.Your daughter is doing alot of the same things I did, except I hid or didn't show my friends all of my ood issues. I always blamed it on other stuff like, PMS, family problems, not feeling well..... Now I realize everyone knew I had issues but I never scared anyone. At least i don't recall. Your daughter definately needs to be on a anti-depressant and a mood stabilizer. ( As Shannon said) I take, topamax and wellbutrin. Both actually suppress your appetite, so they might not be good for your teenager. I had also tried depakote , perfect med except the weight gain. We could put a few meds on here that keeps us in check if you would like. Maybe then you can talk to her pdoc. I feel for ya sweetie, I know what I have put my mom through. ( watch for tatoos and piercings) Usually when kids act out or try to fit it , or just want to plain piss their parents off they try one or the other. Fortunately I never had a tattoo but I did pierce my belly, it has been removed though. I removed it when I became pregnant. I was 24, am now 27. Almost 28. I hope I gave you some helpful info. Keep us posted. Nickie 
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Great advice, Nick - there is so much I plain forget about! I have 4 tatoos and a belly piercing, lol. But, i love the belly ring!

Ok, here's the list of SSRIs, I;m pretty sure this is all of them. Do NOT be afraid to discuss meds with the doctor. The absolute key to controlling BP effectively is for the patient or in this case the guardian to be informed. If he/she tries to give her another SSRI, you can object. MD does not = God. IMO she does not need an antidepressant at this point. she is very manic and needs a mood stabilizer/seroquel only. If she becomes depressed, you can deal with that later. And, she really shouldn't be on anything but Lamictal or welbutrin or both.

Different meds work differently in all of us, it is complicated to get the right cocktail, but it doesn't have to be hard or take a really long time; the key is to be in frequent contact with your pdoc about how they are affecting the BP patient. Don't just keep taking the meds that don't work or have terrible side effects just because the pdoc wrote them.

I did all those things, but didn't try to hide them, enjoyed being rebellious even tho I was constantly grounded, I didn't care. Doing those things were totally worth it to me!
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Greta Shannon , that could help her understand what there is out their and what they are for. I never had all that info till i came here. Now I just say to my doc can we try this , or how about this. What do you think? Sometimes I think he is scared if he says no to something i will freak on him. Imagine that?! confused Hehe Whatever, Shannon i was busy to write today. i cleaned my whole freakin house, cleaning walls ... So needless to say i am feeling better, not 100% , or even 80% but I feel better than the last 2 days. i have a ton of homework, so I won't email ya till later. I even think I am feeling better with my moods. i seem um.... more calm not so dam* depressed and I actually feel like tomorrow will be a good day, as long as i pass my test, with a 95 or above. Gotta set the bar high in order to achieve maximum potential. Just call me a NERD!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Yay, Nick, I'm glad you're diong better!  What do you mean the last 2 days.  It's been since last Tuesday!

Um, cleaning walls?  If you're serious, I'm a little worried, tho confused that's kinda hypo stuff.  I think maybe, just maybe the only reason you say you aren't 100% yet is because you are still sick with a cold, and maybe without it you would be feeling a little "too" good?  Just a thought, I could be wrong (who me?) I just worry about you bouncing back and forth, cause every time you go up, you're going to crash eventually.  Please call your doc tomorrow, ok?  I just dont' want to see you go back where you've been this week again. 

I know you'll ace your test, you do everything you want to! yeah    Good luck!  yeah, like you need it, nerd! tongue

Variety is the spice of life, BP is the key

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Ah ha... you found me out. I was also thinking that I was becoming hypo, but couldn't really tell because of my cold. But I was freakin nonstop today, laundry , bleaching walls and the tub, cleaning hangers?, dusting, dishes , windows, putting clothes away , throwing out s***, ....... Okay maybe I am a little hypo again. But guess what the only reason I didn't say it is because I was waiting to see if you thought it and then said it. lol devil   At least for the first maybe second time, I realized it. Yeah it's a positive I am calling my doc tomorrow. i know it's been a week, I was just stating the 2 days about my cold. Silly tongue ! Okay, one more increase on both meds , then I will add lamictal, what do you think. Or should I add something different , that could possibly work. Ever notice i need to adjust my meds like every 2 months. haha I don't know if that is 100% truth but pretty da** close. Okay I gotta study and JAson just got home. He's gonna complain that I "did too much " today, and that tomorrow I will feel like sH**. OHHHHHHH .. he's so smart. lol Kidding I am sure I will be fine tomorrow, except now I worry too Shan. What happened to my 3 days on and off, better than 1 week of this on and off stuff. At least I appreciate the 3-4 good and bad days. This almost week stuff sucks. Okay, well listen hope you are doing better. S*** I hope everyone is , what a week we have all had. Thanks for being with me through my miserable b***** side. Geez I can be so mean and just outta sorts. Sorry all! luv, Nickie ( wish I could be a hypomanic normal person, like that was normal being hypo) Ha I crack myself up.Whatever I know eyes .
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Oh, I see how you are!  Baiting me! tongue

Uh, yeah, I don't think even Monk cleans hangers!  You ARE crazy!

Defo call the doc tomorrow, but NO INCREASE in the welbutrin!  You probably need to back it down, it's contributing.  Also, there is no evidence that doses over 200mg in Topamax are any more effective even the 400mg range.   It's just not the drug for you.  You can try Trileptal, or Abilify.  neither has the weight gain issue.   And, being a rapido, you will always need to be changing doses, that's just part of the bargain.

I think what you may need is to back off the welbutrin and start Lamictal, usually starts around 25 mg.  It has very little chance of making hypo worse, but welbutrin can contribute. 

Whatever you do, just change something!    Bless your heart.  And, I personally do not recall in any way your being *****y!  You were feeling crappy, you complained, end of story!  Like you siad, if we can't do that, what good is a support group!!!!!!!   Do not apologize again, you hear me? nono

Variety is the spice of life, BP is the key

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Thank you folks for all the information on the drugs...this is a very scary time for me not kowing how to help her and fearing for all of our safety. I swear sometimes she is like Linda Blair in the Exorcist and I expect her head to start spinning around around and then an hour later she is the loving child I remember. Believe me I have had enough experience with the medical field having twelve children and although it sometimes ticks them off I tell them exactly whats on my mind~I am very well aware that MD does not equal GOD!!! I am going to insist they test her for BP and get her hospitalized and stabilized on her meds. This is not healthy for any of us. I will keep you updated on our progress and once again thank you all from the bottom of my heart PJ
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Not meaning to laugh here, but that was funny. Linda Blair and her head spinning. Anyways, gosh 12 children i couldn't even imagine. I stopped at one on purpose. Anyways, you get my thumbs up on 12 kids. let's hope none of the others end up with Bp. First thing first get her tested for the sake of the whole family. Good luck !!!
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try to use the Shannon's med information. Athough you have had experience with in the medical field ,these meds are really different. Thanks for your info and sharing yor experience, it could help someone else s well, especially a young teen.
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I spoke with Caitlins therapist today and you are probably right I might have to shop around a bit. Caitlin has been blowing hot air telling them that things are so much better and they are just buying into it. The therapist said she is going to confront her today with what I've told her is going on and that she will probably get angry and not want to come back! Well for heavens sake what is the point in her going if she is just telling crap.....school is great, I haven't done any drugs etc. and its not the truth. Quite the con artist...get off my butt by just telling them what they want to hear. Caitlin told me last week her therapist is the greatest, now I know why~she has her totally bullsh----! T seemed to think that her most important problem that needs to be handled is major depression..........well isn't that too part of bipolar. She was in a huge hurry and said she would call back but not today! God give me the strength not to go postal on these people.~PJ~
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Major depression?????????  WTF?

This girl sounds manic as all get out, esp the manipulation stuff, that's just a given with BPs.  But, then again, teens in general, right???

Depressed BPs don't act like that.  They are usually too weak and tired to even take a shower, much less have the energy to go storming upstairs and yelling! 

Her therapist sounds absolutely worthless to be buying into her crap.   Yeah, you need to shop around - for BOTH a good pdoc and therapist.

One hint, tho:   if she's bipolar, therapy isn't going to do much of anything for her, IMO it's a waste of money until she becomes stable on meds.  Then, she will be able to use the therapy, because almost all of us suffer other disorders, too.  But if she doesn't want it, it won't work, anyway.  You cannot force therapy on someone that doesn't want it.

Variety is the spice of life, BP is the key

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hellp again. how is Caitlyn doing in school? I always got phonecalls for skipping or cussing or fighting. Never called about my grades though, I am a perfectionist with grades. What does she do after school/ What type of people does she hang around with? This does tell some things. Ohhhhhhhh Yes .. depressed , well you have a point there is depression , but in her case she does sound manic or hypomanic. Keep us updated, you too also need your sanity. Nickie
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Caitlin is doing terrible in school, smart enough but skips too much.  Sleeping also very erratic so she's had a very hard time getting to bed at night and a harder time waking up.  She is incredibly manipulative like convincing her friends sister that she has her drivers license and driving her car, which she proceeded to wreck by hitting a gas pump at a station.  Thank god in heaven no one was hurt and she wasn't going fast enough to take the pump out!!!  I have nightmares over her...here she was out driving on the main roads and has never even taken drivers training!!!!  I couldn't believe it when she spent the night with her "best friend" and the mom smelled marijuana and caught them smoking it in her house!!  The next morning bright and early she was brought home by the parents and told she could no longer be friends with their daughter.  Didn't really seem to bother her a bit not then or now.  Caitlin also lies about who she is with.....she will be with Nicole but ends up with sandra (that I don't want her hanging out with) and has Nicole cover for her.  I call to check in with her and Nicole says she is in the bathroom I'll have her call you back and then she calls Caitlin and tells her to call home.  I don't want her with Sandra because she has a drug problem and due to her Dads accident has a home pharmacy from which Sandra just helps herself.  Never ever comes home on time....always had to make a stop here or there for a multitude of reasons!  Caitlin also seems to adore going on her tirades when her friends are around...telling me what a lousy mother I am and how useless her father is and we are the reasons she gets bad grades la la la la.  I know some of this is teen behaviour but I went thru eleven teens before her (she is the baby) and I've just never seen anything quite like this before.
Thank you for giving me a place to go that understand ~                PJ
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PJ, she is doing all the the same stuff I did. I know it was not normal because not all my friends were doing the same things, and like you said you have already went through 11 other teens. Her's the thing about other parents.. sometimes they are nieve. Like you said the parent said your daughter can no longer stay at her house, hello your daughter didn't force her to smoke it in the house , I don't care how manipulitive she is. The other girl was more than willing. Your daughter gets a rush off doing things she is " not suppose to". i too was pretty manipulitive, well proably still am although I don't do the things I use to, so bascially I don't apply my bad behaviors. As a teenager i used to stay out all night and come home just before school, then go to school for about an hour and go home to bed. I knew my parnets were at work. I used to get the mail, and the letters sent home by school, and correct the number of days missed by using my computer or typewriter. nono Yeah I guess know that i think of it, I did alot of bad stuff. Ahhhh... the lousy mom thing in front of her peers, I didn't use those exct words to my mom, but always when my friends were around I would make mean comments to my mom, who later confronted me after they left. She has this I am higher or better than thou attitude. She doesn't fear anything, that is common, in fact she probably enjoys it. i know this is troubling you or you wouldn't be here, but try to stop her know or it will get worse. Remember , hard to do, that she is not herself right now, nor will she probably be for quit some time. She enjoys escaping from reality , by gettting high whichever way she can, by drugs, by insults.... it helps ease her inner pain. I feel for you so much and almost want to cry for what I put my mother through, not so much my dad, he should feel for what he put me through, with his drinking all the time. He waits until he retires from GM , and is now 5 before he gets sober. I know at least he did, but boy there were some times. ......  I feel like I am meant topost to you or something . It's kinda strange, I have a real genuine need to help and support you.  So if you feel like talking just keep posting, by the way it is probably beneficial for you to keep your own journal, and write down your days with her, what she was like one day, maybe help to lead to some of her patterns. Does she herself keep a journal?  Anyways, I have to go to clas now, have a great day.
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Kitty thanks for having the need to help me lord knows I need someone to hold my hand and help me get in the right direction. I believe you are right about her getting a rush out of doing things that she knows are wrong. I have only told you of things I out right know.....I hear things from others like the fact she is shoplifting underwear by going in the dressing rooms and putting them on under her jeans, stealing shirts (you know how the layered look is in) by just putting them on over top of each other......I am told that she brags about it, even stole twelve in one day. The Major Depression that her T is talking about is her cutting herself!! Which is a wierd thing too....I feel like she does it for attention! I don't think most cutters make fifty scratches on their fore arms and then wear tank tops for everyone to see and then gets ticked of because a boy says she is psycho. I certainly don't know everything about cutting but my understanding is they don't want people to know and wear clothes to hide it. I agree she is escaping reality in any way that she can and I know she has to be in pain but hopefully with the right Pdoc she can at least get some relief from all thats going on in her head. My oldest daughter wants to take her to live with her and give her a change of environment.........wake up this is not a stage she is going through, she is mentally ill and she would me able to really pull it over on her sister. A whole new family to manipulate and alot less supervision. I'm sure Caitlin would just love the he-- out of that!! Running from her pain again. Yes Kat I would like to have you for support, you were her at one time and can really give me insight as to where she is coming from and heading. Thanks as usua~PJ