Why does Bartonella cause swelling of the lower extremities and how do I resolve this problem? Heart and kidneys are fine.
Patty
hi Summer
edema is typically caused by leakage of liquids from the blood through the barrier of the blood vessels into the tissues causing swelling
of course some degree of movement of liquids through the blood vessels into tissues and then back through the lymph system is normal and required to nourish the cells in the tissues
however, with conditions that inflame and impair the function of the cells that line these blood vessels - like Lyme and bartonella in particular - the rate this happens increases - and at the same time the efficiency of the lymph system to drain the tissues can be impaired - leading to fluid and swelling.
gravity of course plays a role in that fluid naturally drains to the lowest extremities - and relies on the body to circulate it back up again to keep everything in balance
when people are sick they also tend to move around less / do less exercise - and since the lymph system had no active pump - or heart - like the blood system has to actively pump the lymph back up from the legs - and relies on movement of the body to help achieve that - then this tends to exacerbate the issue
in terms of how these infections cause inflammation / damage to the linings of the blood vessels
- borrelia can tunnel through these tissues - and also raise inflammation in the vascular system via their disruption of the immune system -
and
-bartonella can live in and damage the endothelial cells that line the blood vessels driving inflammation in the entire vasculature system and disrupting its proper function
other co-existing conditions can certainly play a part and exacerbate the condition. for instance metabolic issues like type 2 diabetes or metabolic syndrome also tend to damage same blood vessel linings that infections do - and thereby worsen the effect.
as can inflammatory diet or lifestyle
some of the co-infections are known to cause edema more than others infections - one example being Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever (a rickettsia type organism)
as with most symptoms - actively treating the underlying cause or causes is the primary and most effective approach
if actively treating the infections is already underway
modifying lifestyle factors can help - especially if they are contributing to inflammation in the blood vessels
-mild to moderate exercise can help recycle the lymph
-if blood sugar control is less than ideal - dietary choices that help control blood sugar and increase insulin sensitivity can help reduce the impact of metabolic syndrome
-anything else that helps regulate systemic inflammation is likely to help to some degree
i think the most productive approach would be to do a kind of personal audit to evaluate which factors are likely to be contributing in your particular case, and then make a plan to address these in turn in a systematic manner.
i hope its some help to you
all the best
ill since Feb 2015 – Lyme (Armin), Mycoplasma Pn, suspected Bart
Bart now conclusively diagnosed by microscopy see https://tinyurl.com/2eatxxz7
60% recovered - most useful approaches:
=Wholefood Keto Diet
=Exercise – initially walking – now weights too
=Buhner Lyme herbs and co-infect herbs
=Immune modulation- Ivermectin and LDN
=Methylene Blue (Bart)
+T4 and T3 for thyroid
edema is typically caused by leakage of liquids from the blood through the barrier of the blood vessels into the tissues causing swelling
of course some degree of movement of liquids through the blood vessels into tissues and then back through the lymph system is normal and required to nourish the cells in the tissues
however, with conditions that inflame and impair the function of the cells that line these blood vessels - like Lyme and bartonella in particular - the rate this happens increases - and at the same time the efficiency of the lymph system to drain the tissues can be impaired - leading to fluid and swelling.
gravity of course plays a role in that fluid naturally drains to the lowest extremities - and relies on the body to circulate it back up again to keep everything in balance
when people are sick they also tend to move around less / do less exercise - and since the lymph system had no active pump - or heart - like the blood system has to actively pump the lymph back up from the legs - and relies on movement of the body to help achieve that - then this tends to exacerbate the issue
in terms of how these infections cause inflammation / damage to the linings of the blood vessels
- borrelia can tunnel through these tissues - and also raise inflammation in the vascular system via their disruption of the immune system -
and
-bartonella can live in and damage the endothelial cells that line the blood vessels driving inflammation in the entire vasculature system and disrupting its proper function
other co-existing conditions can certainly play a part and exacerbate the condition. for instance metabolic issues like type 2 diabetes or metabolic syndrome also tend to damage same blood vessel linings that infections do - and thereby worsen the effect.
as can inflammatory diet or lifestyle
some of the co-infections are known to cause edema more than others infections - one example being Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever (a rickettsia type organism)
as with most symptoms - actively treating the underlying cause or causes is the primary and most effective approach
if actively treating the infections is already underway
modifying lifestyle factors can help - especially if they are contributing to inflammation in the blood vessels
-mild to moderate exercise can help recycle the lymph
-if blood sugar control is less than ideal - dietary choices that help control blood sugar and increase insulin sensitivity can help reduce the impact of metabolic syndrome
-anything else that helps regulate systemic inflammation is likely to help to some degree
i think the most productive approach would be to do a kind of personal audit to evaluate which factors are likely to be contributing in your particular case, and then make a plan to address these in turn in a systematic manner.
i hope its some help to you
all the best
ill since Feb 2015 – Lyme (Armin), Mycoplasma Pn, suspected Bart
Bart now conclusively diagnosed by microscopy see https://tinyurl.com/2eatxxz7
60% recovered - most useful approaches:
=Wholefood Keto Diet
=Exercise – initially walking – now weights too
=Buhner Lyme herbs and co-infect herbs
=Immune modulation- Ivermectin and LDN
=Methylene Blue (Bart)
+T4 and T3 for thyroid
Hi, Patty!
I have the same issue. For me, it has been random and will come for weeks to months and go away. It is very annoying. I don’t know exactly what triggers it for me, but it was more prevalent during the times I was really mold-sick or herxing or having symptom flares for whatever reason.
One thing I found that reliably helped was taking Zyrtec (antihistamine). I only took 1/4-1/2 a tablet daily. Antihistamines act as a diuretic, so it helps get the fluid off, and Zyrtec helps treat MCAS, too. I think edema and MCAS likely go hand in hand.
Die-off of gut microbes like yeast, bad bacteria, and parasites are a trigger for me, too.
I have the same issue. For me, it has been random and will come for weeks to months and go away. It is very annoying. I don’t know exactly what triggers it for me, but it was more prevalent during the times I was really mold-sick or herxing or having symptom flares for whatever reason.
One thing I found that reliably helped was taking Zyrtec (antihistamine). I only took 1/4-1/2 a tablet daily. Antihistamines act as a diuretic, so it helps get the fluid off, and Zyrtec helps treat MCAS, too. I think edema and MCAS likely go hand in hand.
Die-off of gut microbes like yeast, bad bacteria, and parasites are a trigger for me, too.
I have this too, but lower swelling from two causes. In my case its “fluid” and blood.:
1)blood: I have positive clotting genes. I had to go to the ER one time for this in my calf muscle. I had to take anti-clotting medicine for two weeks.
2) fluid/water : will get fluid puffyness from salt ( like too many salted mixed nuts is a good example. So now I buy salt free or low salt
None of this became visible till my late forties. Oddly enough, none of this was worse in my younger years when I had lyme and co-infections..
1)blood: I have positive clotting genes. I had to go to the ER one time for this in my calf muscle. I had to take anti-clotting medicine for two weeks.
2) fluid/water : will get fluid puffyness from salt ( like too many salted mixed nuts is a good example. So now I buy salt free or low salt
None of this became visible till my late forties. Oddly enough, none of this was worse in my younger years when I had lyme and co-infections..
Post Edited (astroman) : 6/5/2025 11:53:08 PM (GMT-4)
WalkingbyFaith said...
Hi, Patty!
…….
One thing I found that reliably helped was taking Zyrtec (antihistamine). I only took 1/4-1/2 a tablet daily. Antihistamines act as a diuretic, so it helps get the fluid off, and Zyrtec helps treat MCAS, too. I think edema and MCAS likely go hand in hand.
Die-off of gut microbes like yeast, bad bacteria, and parasites are a trigger for me, too.
I’ll try some Zyrtec next time I Have too much salt in my daily diet.
Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. I’ve had edema of my lower extremities on and off for years that lasted for a couple of months but this time it is more excessive and somewhat painful. I stopped my Pepcid/Allegra prior to the swelling and just restarted it a couple of days ago (mcas). I was quite sedentary but the last couple of months have greatly increased my activity. An ultrasound of my LE’s was patent. I do believe it is a lymph flow problem from Bartonella. Just started A-BART after being on Rifampin for years. I continue to take Azithromycin. Any suggestions of what herbs would be helpful for increasing lymph flow?
Again, thanks so much for your information. Wishing all of you true remission.
Patty
Again, thanks so much for your information. Wishing all of you true remission.
Patty
I got edema from bartonella. It seemed to be due to low protein because bartonella was eating up the protein. The lack of albumin causes the swelling, but I was also getting other effects from lack of protein, such as hair loss.
Borrelia can also damage the endothelium, but for me this caused blood clots and bruising, and not edema.
If you're getting lipedema (fat instead of water) this might suggest carnitine deficiency. The inability to synthesize enough carnitine is often due to adrenal stress and inadequate vitamin C. I found that carnitine deficiency smelled very greasy even when there wasn't obvious puffyness.
I'd be a little cautious with a low salt diet as I tend to lose a lot of salt when herxing and detoxing make me pee more and get diarrhea. Often the first sign that I was low on salt was that I would get headaches.
Ultimately the solution to the edema was to treat the bartonella, which was difficult because my bartonella infection was resistant to several antibiotics including rifampin and azithromycin, so I had to use other things.
Borrelia can also damage the endothelium, but for me this caused blood clots and bruising, and not edema.
If you're getting lipedema (fat instead of water) this might suggest carnitine deficiency. The inability to synthesize enough carnitine is often due to adrenal stress and inadequate vitamin C. I found that carnitine deficiency smelled very greasy even when there wasn't obvious puffyness.
I'd be a little cautious with a low salt diet as I tend to lose a lot of salt when herxing and detoxing make me pee more and get diarrhea. Often the first sign that I was low on salt was that I would get headaches.
Ultimately the solution to the edema was to treat the bartonella, which was difficult because my bartonella infection was resistant to several antibiotics including rifampin and azithromycin, so I had to use other things.
The specifics of your situation might not conform to these ideas, but swelling in the lower extremities makes me think first about postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mold exposure (impacts anti-diuretic hormone to cause swelling, symptoms indistinguishable from Bartonella infection), and congestive heart failure.
This might seem simplistic, but the onset of hotter weather in the northern hemisphere also can cause swelling. Some bodies (especially those with chronic illness, especially those with POTS) can take longer to adjust to the temperature difference, which requires an expansion in blood volume and circulatory system, as well as ramping up sweating capacity, and can just take time.
For lymphatic circulation, I would prioritize movement (restorative yoga if you struggle with exertion), dry brushing, and lymphatic massage (self-administered or professional).
Lyme, Bartonella, Babesia, Mycoplasma, EBV
Mold, MCAS, POTS, CFS/ME, HPA axis
Herbs, DNRS, diet, nutrients, EOs
This might seem simplistic, but the onset of hotter weather in the northern hemisphere also can cause swelling. Some bodies (especially those with chronic illness, especially those with POTS) can take longer to adjust to the temperature difference, which requires an expansion in blood volume and circulatory system, as well as ramping up sweating capacity, and can just take time.
For lymphatic circulation, I would prioritize movement (restorative yoga if you struggle with exertion), dry brushing, and lymphatic massage (self-administered or professional).
Lyme, Bartonella, Babesia, Mycoplasma, EBV
Mold, MCAS, POTS, CFS/ME, HPA axis
Herbs, DNRS, diet, nutrients, EOs
Thank you Quin and Saraeli. More food for thought. I did test positive for mold 3 years ago and still taking Micopul. My home was remediated and only showed mild mold in the hot water tank room and the garage which was found through an Ermi test. I am sure I have pots and dysautonomia and a lot of stress, for sure.
toxic effects from 2 doses of Levaquin in 2008.....Xanax for 4 monrhs in 2008 (horrific withdrawal effects)......CDC positive for Lyme's in 2009 (prescribed 200 mg daily of doxycycline for 2 months........extreme fatigue, anxiety, decreased cognition, etc. and was becoming worse in 2012......tested for Lyme's through Igenix and was CDC positive.....treatment started 9/2012
toxic effects from 2 doses of Levaquin in 2008.....Xanax for 4 monrhs in 2008 (horrific withdrawal effects)......CDC positive for Lyme's in 2009 (prescribed 200 mg daily of doxycycline for 2 months........extreme fatigue, anxiety, decreased cognition, etc. and was becoming worse in 2012......tested for Lyme's through Igenix and was CDC positive.....treatment started 9/2012
Hi Quin. I know this post is a year old but would you tell me which other alternatives you used besides Rifampin and Azithromycin. I have been on them for years to no avail. Feel free to email me. Thanks in advance.
Patty
toxic effects from 2 doses of Levaquin in 2008.....Xanax for 4 monrhs in 2008 (horrific withdrawal effects)......CDC positive for Lyme's in 2009 (prescribed 200 mg daily of doxycycline for 2 months........extreme fatigue, anxiety, decreased cognition, etc. and was becoming worse in 2012......tested for Lyme's through Igenix and was CDC positive.....treatment started 9/2012
Patty
toxic effects from 2 doses of Levaquin in 2008.....Xanax for 4 monrhs in 2008 (horrific withdrawal effects)......CDC positive for Lyme's in 2009 (prescribed 200 mg daily of doxycycline for 2 months........extreme fatigue, anxiety, decreased cognition, etc. and was becoming worse in 2012......tested for Lyme's through Igenix and was CDC positive.....treatment started 9/2012
Mostly I used minocycline, although I found that taking atovaquone with azithromycin could overcome the resistance to this antibiotic.
However, this will only kill the active form of bartonella, you'll need something else to get the dormant bacteria to come out.
I described this in more detail in this thread:
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4315526
Antibiotic resistance can vary, so that is just some general suggestions. You may have to change things a bit depending on what works for you and what you can tolerate the side effects of.
You might also want to review past discussion of bartonella to get an idea of what others found effective. The search function doesn't work well, but here are some threads I found:
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4359072
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4357741
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4356640
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4354268
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4352906
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4345596
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4345421
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4344988
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4334816
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4331414
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4327261
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4322910
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4314666
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4306361
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4263738
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3724809
However, this will only kill the active form of bartonella, you'll need something else to get the dormant bacteria to come out.
I described this in more detail in this thread:
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4315526
Antibiotic resistance can vary, so that is just some general suggestions. You may have to change things a bit depending on what works for you and what you can tolerate the side effects of.
You might also want to review past discussion of bartonella to get an idea of what others found effective. The search function doesn't work well, but here are some threads I found:
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4359072
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4357741
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4356640
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4354268
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4352906
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4345596
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4345421
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4344988
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4334816
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4331414
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4327261
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4322910
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4314666
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4306361
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4263738
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3724809
its always difficult to know which infection is causing which symptoms with these lyme and co infections - as so much is host dependent - but a few things worth mentioning
Edema is one of the classic symptoms of rickettsia infections - a bacterium in the same general family as bartonella - and spread by arthropods like ticks etc - but a different species to bartonella
symptoms and treatments are similar to bartonella i believe
ref taking rifampicin long term - the body upregulates its metabolism of rifampicin after a few weeks increasing its rate of excretion significantly - so that the circulating concentrations fall below clinically effective concentrations and this can contribute to the lack of efficacy you seem to be experiencing.
this is not the same as antibiotic resistance - the drug is still effective against the bacterium - at the proper concentration - its just that after 2-4 weeks or regular dosing there is not enough of it circulating to be fully effective
Dr M ( the ILADS Bart Guru) uses increasing doses of rifampicin and then switches to rifabutin to get around this issue
BTW - i wasn't sure if your post was conveying that you used Azi and Rifampicin together or separately - just in case its separately - rifamycin's should not be used as mono therapy for infections as, of all the antibiotics, its one of the easier ones for actual antimicrobial resistance to develop against - as it requires only a single mutation
so its usually only given along with at least 1 other antibiotic
ill since Feb 2015 – Lyme (Armin), Mycoplasma Pn, suspected Bart
Bart now conclusively diagnosed by microscopy see https://tinyurl.com/2eatxxz7
60% recovered - most useful approaches:
=Wholefood Keto Diet
=Exercise – initially walking – now weights too
=Buhner Lyme herbs and co-infect herbs
=Immune modulation- Ivermectin and LDN
=Methylene Blue (Bart)
+T4 and T3 for thyroid
Edema is one of the classic symptoms of rickettsia infections - a bacterium in the same general family as bartonella - and spread by arthropods like ticks etc - but a different species to bartonella
symptoms and treatments are similar to bartonella i believe
ref taking rifampicin long term - the body upregulates its metabolism of rifampicin after a few weeks increasing its rate of excretion significantly - so that the circulating concentrations fall below clinically effective concentrations and this can contribute to the lack of efficacy you seem to be experiencing.
this is not the same as antibiotic resistance - the drug is still effective against the bacterium - at the proper concentration - its just that after 2-4 weeks or regular dosing there is not enough of it circulating to be fully effective
Dr M ( the ILADS Bart Guru) uses increasing doses of rifampicin and then switches to rifabutin to get around this issue
BTW - i wasn't sure if your post was conveying that you used Azi and Rifampicin together or separately - just in case its separately - rifamycin's should not be used as mono therapy for infections as, of all the antibiotics, its one of the easier ones for actual antimicrobial resistance to develop against - as it requires only a single mutation
so its usually only given along with at least 1 other antibiotic
ill since Feb 2015 – Lyme (Armin), Mycoplasma Pn, suspected Bart
Bart now conclusively diagnosed by microscopy see https://tinyurl.com/2eatxxz7
60% recovered - most useful approaches:
=Wholefood Keto Diet
=Exercise – initially walking – now weights too
=Buhner Lyme herbs and co-infect herbs
=Immune modulation- Ivermectin and LDN
=Methylene Blue (Bart)
+T4 and T3 for thyroid
Thank you, Garzie. Such a great post. I will take a a good long look at it. I have a few more questions. I am in deep trouble.
Patty ❤️
toxic effects from 2 doses of Levaquin in 2008.....Xanax for 4 monrhs in 2008 (horrific withdrawal effects)......CDC positive for Lyme's in 2009 (prescribed 200 mg daily of doxycycline for 2 months........extreme fatigue, anxiety, decreased cognition, etc. and was becoming worse in 2012......tested for Lyme's through Igenix and was CDC positive.....treatment started 9/2012
Patty ❤️
toxic effects from 2 doses of Levaquin in 2008.....Xanax for 4 monrhs in 2008 (horrific withdrawal effects)......CDC positive for Lyme's in 2009 (prescribed 200 mg daily of doxycycline for 2 months........extreme fatigue, anxiety, decreased cognition, etc. and was becoming worse in 2012......tested for Lyme's through Igenix and was CDC positive.....treatment started 9/2012
It can sometimes be difficult to know which infection is causing which symptoms, but for me bartonella had some very distinctive symptoms. I got the characteristic rash, blood tests showed high bilirubin and B6, and I got dark urine from the bilirubin. Also bartonella had a very distinctive odor, often described as like ammonia and asparagus.
Regarding metabolism of rifampin, I found that it does not take weeks for that to occur. Often it happens in just a few hours. The symptoms of this include increased urine production, and hot flashes due to destruction of testosterone and estradiol. Excess vitamin D can also activate the same metabolic pathway, so be careful with that.
Regarding metabolism of rifampin, I found that it does not take weeks for that to occur. Often it happens in just a few hours. The symptoms of this include increased urine production, and hot flashes due to destruction of testosterone and estradiol. Excess vitamin D can also activate the same metabolic pathway, so be careful with that.