Hi all,
Long time lurker, first time poster. This community has really helped me think about my situation. As my username suggests, I am dealing with babesia and bartonella. My question here is specifically about the B duncani strain, which (from everything I've read) is more difficult to treat than B microti.
- Is anyone aware of a blood test-confirmed cure example for B duncani? Specifically, a case in which the patient went from testing positive to testing negative?
- Failing that, have folks heard of (or experienced) treatment regimens that anecdotally work well for B duncani?
- Finally, are there any LLMDs out there known to be experts in babesia specifically (someone who might be researching or developing B duncani treatment regimens)?
Thanks so much! Again, I'm very grateful that this community exists. Looking forward to interacting with you all!
I had PCR tests for babesia and it was repeatedly negative. However, I found that taking a combination of atovaquone, artemisinin, and clarithromycin caused a significant herx which I suspect was due to babesia. Very little showed up on blood tests associated with this, other than slightly increased bilirubin.
Welcome to the forum!
Testing is not as good as we need it to be, unfortunately, so people cannot use a negative test to prove infection eradication. PCR tests look for shed DNA of bacteria, so they only can be positive if the sample happens to contain shed DNA of that bacteria that day. Antibody tests rely on antibodies produced by your immune system, and so they will be positive for the rest of your life, whether the bacteria is still present or not. (This is why vaccines work, too.) Crafty species that can convert to dormant forms, cysts, and biofilms make themselves even harder to detect. This is why diagnosis of these infections is a clinical diagnosis - taking into account signs and symptoms as well as testing. Usually remission is determined by symptom resolution. As far as I know, there is not a test that can determine definitively whether an infection is gone.
I have only tested positive for Babesia divergens, but I found rife technology effective at provoking a massive Babesia herx. I have not directly treated Babesia in any other way, though. I don't have any Babesia-specific symptoms these days, although of course the symptoms of these infections overlap a lot.
Sorry I don't have more encouraging information!
Lyme, Bartonella, Babesia, Mycoplasma, EBV
Mold, MCAS, POTS, CFS/ME, HPA axis
Herbs, DNRS, diet, nutrients, EOs
Testing is not as good as we need it to be, unfortunately, so people cannot use a negative test to prove infection eradication. PCR tests look for shed DNA of bacteria, so they only can be positive if the sample happens to contain shed DNA of that bacteria that day. Antibody tests rely on antibodies produced by your immune system, and so they will be positive for the rest of your life, whether the bacteria is still present or not. (This is why vaccines work, too.) Crafty species that can convert to dormant forms, cysts, and biofilms make themselves even harder to detect. This is why diagnosis of these infections is a clinical diagnosis - taking into account signs and symptoms as well as testing. Usually remission is determined by symptom resolution. As far as I know, there is not a test that can determine definitively whether an infection is gone.
I have only tested positive for Babesia divergens, but I found rife technology effective at provoking a massive Babesia herx. I have not directly treated Babesia in any other way, though. I don't have any Babesia-specific symptoms these days, although of course the symptoms of these infections overlap a lot.
Sorry I don't have more encouraging information!
Lyme, Bartonella, Babesia, Mycoplasma, EBV
Mold, MCAS, POTS, CFS/ME, HPA axis
Herbs, DNRS, diet, nutrients, EOs
There is a Facebook group that OP may wish to join, it is called "Babesia Buddies". I think you might find members of that group who can weigh in.
I have researched B Duncani and consider myself reasonably well-informed, but my answers to all of the OP's questions are "no".
The research seems to have caught up to the fact that chronic human Babesiosis is indeed very hard to treat effectively, however there is not a lot of good research into effective treatments. We basically just get to trial whichever new antimalarials are developed. Anecdotally some patients (and doctors) seem to like Krintafel, which is the newest option.
I believe that the iGenex FISH test is fairly good.
I will also note that in non-chronically ill patients, Babesiosis is often asymptomatic and/or cleared by the immune system. I believe it is likely that for any of us who suffer persistent symptoms of TBDs, there might be more to the picture than just Babesia infection.
Contrary to some of the information in the other posts here, I do not believe that Babesia has been shown to have a "dormant" form. It is a RBC parasite and doesn't infect tissues and form biofilms in the same way that Borrelia does. However, research has shown that it is very hard to eradicate every single infected RBC, which will eventually lead to a relapse in the case of a compromised immune response.
I have researched B Duncani and consider myself reasonably well-informed, but my answers to all of the OP's questions are "no".
The research seems to have caught up to the fact that chronic human Babesiosis is indeed very hard to treat effectively, however there is not a lot of good research into effective treatments. We basically just get to trial whichever new antimalarials are developed. Anecdotally some patients (and doctors) seem to like Krintafel, which is the newest option.
I believe that the iGenex FISH test is fairly good.
I will also note that in non-chronically ill patients, Babesiosis is often asymptomatic and/or cleared by the immune system. I believe it is likely that for any of us who suffer persistent symptoms of TBDs, there might be more to the picture than just Babesia infection.
Contrary to some of the information in the other posts here, I do not believe that Babesia has been shown to have a "dormant" form. It is a RBC parasite and doesn't infect tissues and form biofilms in the same way that Borrelia does. However, research has shown that it is very hard to eradicate every single infected RBC, which will eventually lead to a relapse in the case of a compromised immune response.
the disulfiram treatment seems to work well for some that have babesia and lyme - at least according to the studies and writings of the LLMDs using it so far
dapsone protocol from Horowitz claimed good success also - dapsone is thought to have activity against babesia
neither of these would be first-line choices though - very hard treatment to endure
dapsone protocol from Horowitz claimed good success also - dapsone is thought to have activity against babesia
neither of these would be first-line choices though - very hard treatment to endure
Dilsulfiram / Dapsone having success kind of lends itself to my point -- that clinical improvement happens when the entire disease complex is treated, not just Babesia itself.
Adam B said...
Dilsulfiram / Dapsone having success kind of lends itself to my point -- that clinical improvement happens when the entire disease complex is treated, not just Babesia itself.
Yep - not disagreeing with you there
Neither am I! Sorry if that wasn't clear 
Thanks for all the great feedback and ideas!
Disulfiram and dapsone are two promising treatments that I've been reading more about. While these are not blood test-confirmed eradication examples, the papers below describe long-term remission for patients with babesia duncani after treatment with (high dose in both cases) disulfiram and dapsone regimens:
Disulfiram: https://www.mdpi.com/2079-6382/9/12/868 (1 patient with B duncani >6 mo remission)
Double-Dose Dapsone Combination Therapy (DDD CT): https://www.mdpi.com/2079-6382/9/11/725 (2 patients with B duncani >1 year remission)
Regarding babesia's ability to remain hidden in the body for very long periods of time (even during/after antimicrobial treatment), I believe one hypothesis is that it could have a difficult-to-eradicate dormant liver form (hypnozoites) like its cousin malaria:
https://www.seattlechildrens.org/research/centers-programs/science-industry-partnerships/partnership-opportunities/malaria-dormant-liver-form/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4455353/
Disulfiram and dapsone are two promising treatments that I've been reading more about. While these are not blood test-confirmed eradication examples, the papers below describe long-term remission for patients with babesia duncani after treatment with (high dose in both cases) disulfiram and dapsone regimens:
Disulfiram: https://www.mdpi.com/2079-6382/9/12/868 (1 patient with B duncani >6 mo remission)
Double-Dose Dapsone Combination Therapy (DDD CT): https://www.mdpi.com/2079-6382/9/11/725 (2 patients with B duncani >1 year remission)
Regarding babesia's ability to remain hidden in the body for very long periods of time (even during/after antimicrobial treatment), I believe one hypothesis is that it could have a difficult-to-eradicate dormant liver form (hypnozoites) like its cousin malaria:
https://www.seattlechildrens.org/research/centers-programs/science-industry-partnerships/partnership-opportunities/malaria-dormant-liver-form/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4455353/
I had/have babs microti and after disulfiram, all related symptoms have been gone 5+ months, except for night sweats. My protocol was a little different from Dr. L in the study
Welcome bart_n_babs
My LLMD doesn’t seem to differentiate between the Babs strains. But he always treats Babesia first - as he feels it needs to be taken care of first.
Then he switches to the Bartonella/Persisters protocol. ( with some meds to keep Babs at bay)
He has been treating lyme for at least 20 years (prior to lyme he treated hiv patients )
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
My LLMD doesn’t seem to differentiate between the Babs strains. But he always treats Babesia first - as he feels it needs to be taken care of first.
Then he switches to the Bartonella/Persisters protocol. ( with some meds to keep Babs at bay)
He has been treating lyme for at least 20 years (prior to lyme he treated hiv patients )
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
Post Edited (Girlie) : 1/15/2021 5:35:59 PM (GMT-7)
I would just bear in mind that a blood test confirmed eradication may not be a meaningful measure of success - given that the blood tests for Babesia in its chronic stages are in all cases likely to have relatively low sensitivity and therefore plenty of false negatives.
ie you could test a person 1 day and find them positive - only to test them 3 days later or 1 month and find them negative - even without abx of any kind.
i think this is one of the reasons why the studies by Horowitz etc above tend to focus on symptoms as a metric of success.
ie you could test a person 1 day and find them positive - only to test them 3 days later or 1 month and find them negative - even without abx of any kind.
i think this is one of the reasons why the studies by Horowitz etc above tend to focus on symptoms as a metric of success.
What frequencies worked for you?