not really improvement

Diseases & Conditions Lyme Disease
1
hey lyme group,

im quite new here. Short Story i got lyme for over 15 Years, but i lived quite well with it the last 10 Years.
Then covid and vac cames and it goes a bit down the road.
So i thought in september maybe i should try some abx. I took mino+plus differnt abs vor 5 Weeks and everyhing went worst. I had to break up because i got tachychardien and palpilations like crazy. So i stopped ABx and still two weeks i felt worst ever. After 3 weeks with no abx and not much herbs i felt better so i was starting my buhner herbs again. And crashed after a week. (guess it was herx) So i started low and slowly raise. I felt a bit better from time to time. But now 6 weeks after i felt worst again. My main symptoms are foggy brain dizzy, higher puls when im slowly moving my body, crazy tinitus and visual snow. i just feel so weak.
My herbs what im taking:
knotweed 3x600mg
cats claw 3xtp 3 times
sida acuta 15dropsx3
bidens 10x3
taiga 2x500mg
kudzu 3x1tb
hottunyia 3x600mg
andographtiis 3x600mg
crypto (normal but i stopped vor 3 days)
sasparila 3x500
baikal2x500mg
lions mane 3x500mg
reishi3x300 mg
hawtrhon berry. 3xtablespoon3x

And two antiviral tincutres mix with cordeyceps, cistus...

as supplement i took zinc, seelen, vitaminc, vitamin d, gluthtion, mnm, q10, nattiókinese, l lysin, liver detox and magnesium
i tested some virus last week and the titer vor ebv and herpes zoster was quite high.

So im not sure if its just takes so much time to recover or its just getting worst ;(or do i need to slow down and let my body detox, maybe its not detoxing enough... im just confused ;(

i do what i can i dont eat any shugar, milk or gluten. Just organic food, fresh vegatble and meat. I do my own bonebroth and eat it every day.
Its now 6 weeks after the abx and im feeling stil so crap, maybe you have some ideas for me?

thank you
(sorry for my bad english)
julian

Post Edited (palermo) : 12/15/2023 12:45:40 AM (GMT-8)

2
It depends on what your goal is.

If you want instant relief, then yes try to detox more. Like TUDCA (1000mg - 1250mg per day). Or Alka Seltzer Gold. See here how to make your own: https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4209194

If you want to think long term. I would add something stronger than nattokinase for biofilms and fibrin. Especially if you got worse after covid and the vaccine. Then there's also possible clotting involved. Try serrapeptase and lumbrokinase. Also xylitol. You will herx a lot though.

Take care!
1 Thessalonians 5:17
3
hello and welcome to the forums!

it sounds to me like you are probably doing all the right things - but perhaps just a bit too much too soon

the tachycardia on abx is quite common and is generally a sign of herxhimer reactions (i have the same) and just gives some indication that you are relatively sensitive

this common and many people here find the greatest barrier to appropriate treatment is dealing with the herxhiemer like effects / worsening symptoms while treating.

its also quite common for this to take a couple of weeks to resolve after stopping whatever treatment triggered them

your current herbal regime looks very comprehensive - but is a lot - with quite high doses of some things - certainly enough to cause strong herxheimer reactions - and could be what you are experiencing as worsening symptoms
so you may find that its better to start much lower than this ( 1/4 or 1/2 the doses - whatever you can comfortably tolerate) - and work up gradually over time - ie only stepping up when the reactions are manageable

PS the "hawtrhon berry. 3xtablespoon3x" seems very high - is this correct? what form of herb is this ?

i hope its of some help
ill since Feb 2015 – Lyme (Armin), Mycoplasma Pn, suspected Bart
Bart now conclusively diagnosed by microscopy see https://tinyurl.com/2eatxxz7
50% recovered - most useful approaches:
=Wholefood Keto Diet
=Exercise – initially walking – now weights too
=Buhner Lyme herbs and co-infect herbs
=Immune modulation- Ivermectin and LDN
=Methylene Blue (Bart)
+T4 and T3 for thyroid
4
Welcome to the forum, Palermo! Don't worry about your English. You expressed yourself perfectly well!

Your list is very extensive with some fairly high doses of antimicrobial herbs. It makes sense to me, based on my experience, that you would have an unmanageable herx after taking so much at once. I would recommend reducing doses and starting again with only a few herbs and supplements at first. You can introduce things more gradually once your herx has decreased, with the goal of keeping herxing manageable in the future. If you are herxing, then you are treating the infections, so do not rush to reach the full doses Buhner recommends right away. I know it's difficult to be patient when you feel so bad, but at least for me, going slowly and introducing one thing at a time was the only safe way to make treatment work.
Lyme, Bartonella, Babesia, Mycoplasma, EBV
Mold, MCAS, POTS, CFS/ME, HPA axis
Herbs, DNRS, diet, nutrients, EOs
5
https:// https://draxe.com/nutrition/hawthorn-berry/#health_benefits

It’s a known herb for heart protection.
Also recommended by Buhner.

The one my husband and I take is from Woodland Essence.
It actually tastes good.
I’ve tried a few others’ and they were bitter.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
6
thank you so much, for your anwser!! really glad to hear!
Yeah im taking so much, becaues i took so much bevor i had the abx (2months) and there i didnt had any herx.. Im not sure but the abx makes me feel that it just pulled out every bactery in my body and thats why im reacting crazy.
I know buhner dont like to pulse herbs. But maybe to take some days off like 3 weeks normal doses and 5 days off and then again? maybe i stop with some of the antimicrobal and use more zytokines?
i will decrease my doses to see if i feel better, im just scared that im getting more sick but maybe i just need to calm down, and start more slow, guess your are right!

thank you so much for all your answers
7

Girlie said...
https:// https://draxe.com/nutrition/hawthorn-berry/#health_benefits

It’s a known herb for heart protection.
Also recommended by Buhner.

The one my husband and I take is from Woodland Essence.
It actually tastes good.
I’ve tried a few others’ and they were bitter.



yep - i use it myself - but Buhner's recommendation is around 2.5ml (half a teaspoon) of tincture 3x a day - so i was just a little curious about the dose in tablespoons mentioned....
ill since Feb 2015 – Lyme (Armin), Mycoplasma Pn, suspected Bart
Bart now conclusively diagnosed by microscopy see https://tinyurl.com/2eatxxz7
50% recovered - most useful approaches:
=Wholefood Keto Diet
=Exercise – initially walking – now weights too
=Buhner Lyme herbs and co-infect herbs
=Immune modulation- Ivermectin and LDN
=Methylene Blue (Bart)
+T4 and T3 for thyroid
8
i wanted to add a note on my experience with hawthorn berry

it grows abundantly around where i live - and i have tried wild harvesting it many times
but i have found that some degree of mold is unavoidable when trying to dry it

typically there is a bit of white or green furriness around the end of the berry by the time they are dry enough to store ( they are actually very closely related to apples - so has the remains of the flower at the tip - and this seems to be the site that mold initiates towards the end of drying)

i am not generally very sensitive to mold - but i did find my sleep became disturbed after a week or so on fairly high doses of these wild harvested berries ( 15ml of tincture per day ) - even when i had selected for the very best / lowest signs of any mold on the crop
same thing happened with tea or tincture made from them - even when they looked 95% perfect

i have since noticed that when they are used in TCM the fruit is usually cut off the stone to allow proper mold free drying ( i guess they have a machine for that - but its way too fiddly by hand).

its a shame as i really like harvesting my own herbs - but drying just seems to be too problematic with this one.

i am currently using Swanson hawthorn berry 500mg capsules 2x per day - which seem fine

i would also expect the woodland essences brand to be fine as i think they know what they are doing
ill since Feb 2015 – Lyme (Armin), Mycoplasma Pn, suspected Bart
Bart now conclusively diagnosed by microscopy see https://tinyurl.com/2eatxxz7
50% recovered - most useful approaches:
=Wholefood Keto Diet
=Exercise – initially walking – now weights too
=Buhner Lyme herbs and co-infect herbs
=Immune modulation- Ivermectin and LDN
=Methylene Blue (Bart)
+T4 and T3 for thyroid
9
thank you for that hawthrone expierence. i got one last question, bevor i took the abx i had the herbs vor a year on high doses. and then 5 weeks of abx i felt like crap and i cant handle more dosage anymore. Im just confused why it went so bad? even 6 weeks after the abx i feel crap, its so wierd, and im a bit desperate to be honest
10
i understand

its this type of question many of us spend a lot of our time trying to work out

the most likely thing in my mind is that treating the infections is just hard work and a marathon type process of many months - where one often feels worse before feeling better - and not a sprint of a few weeks

we have formal studies that show it typically takes 2 years of pretty robust antibiotic protocols -
so i think you are likely just going at it harder than your body can handle - so experiencing more die off/herxhiemer/inflammation symptoms - and not yet feeling the benefit.
its also often true that the herxheimer type / die off reactions can be stronger with herbal treatments than with pharma abx - i have certainly found that to be true

alternately
its possible something specific in what you are taking is just not agreeing with you - this is always a risk when taking a lot of things.

OK
all the best
ill since Feb 2015 – Lyme (Armin), Mycoplasma Pn, suspected Bart
Bart now conclusively diagnosed by microscopy see https://tinyurl.com/2eatxxz7
50% recovered - most useful approaches:
=Wholefood Keto Diet
=Exercise – initially walking – now weights too
=Buhner Lyme herbs and co-infect herbs
=Immune modulation- Ivermectin and LDN
=Methylene Blue (Bart)
+T4 and T3 for thyroid
11
im taking nothing new, i took the herx already long time bevor. the problem was i was on 80 Percent and after the abx i am on 10 Percent haha. This is kind of frustrating... But yes i guess your right, sometimes just patient.... patient and detox, should make a shirt out of it,..
12
so here is my updatet protocoll, i will keep you updated how im feeling with it..

Buhner Herbs

Antibacterial
-cryptolepsis 3x15 drops(slowly begin)
-Andographtiits 3x 500mg

Zytokine:
-Japanese Knotweed 3x400mg
-Baikal Helmkraut 3x20 drops
-Rhodolia 3x20 Drops
-Gou Teng 3x20 Drops
-Kudzu 3x20 Drops
-Sassparilla 3x500mg

Immundmodul.
Katzenkralle 3x20 dropd
Cordeyceps 3x500mg
Reishi 3x400mg

Antiviral
-Cistus 3x30 drops
- Planta Viral Mix, (licore, Scuttelaria)

Nems:

-Q10, Vitamin C, L Lysin, Vitamin D, Vitamin E, Magnesium, B Vitamins, Zink, Seelen, MNM, Hepaplex
13
that seems like a more reasonable place to start

most of the herbs are now more anti-inflammatory rather than antimicrobial in their nature - so should lead to less herx like reactions

its still quite a long list to start with - so you may still find yourself to be reactive - but you can continue to trim the list until thigs settle down

when i was more ill - 15drops 3x of cryptolepis was still enough to cause me a pretty strong herx type effects - which for me was an increase in aching, thick sore head, fatigue, sleep problems

i also found it very useful - actually essential - to maintain an objective symptoms / health tracker so i could reliably see what was happening over time and could therefore use this to steer my self treatment.
as - when we treat ourselves - we do not have the benefit of a specialists years of experience or 1000's of patients to guide us - and are additionally buffeted by problems of subjectivity when we asses ourselves from one day to the next

this was the single most useful tool i found to, understand what does what, what works, what doesn't work, what works but make me feel worse before i feel better etc etc and thereby helped me steer my treatment

all the best!
ill since Feb 2015 – Lyme (Armin), Mycoplasma Pn, suspected Bart
Bart now conclusively diagnosed by microscopy see https://tinyurl.com/2eatxxz7
50% recovered - most useful approaches:
=Wholefood Keto Diet
=Exercise – initially walking – now weights too
=Buhner Lyme herbs and co-infect herbs
=Immune modulation- Ivermectin and LDN
=Methylene Blue (Bart)
+T4 and T3 for thyroid
14
ahh thank you, i was reallly looking for this 3 days ago. because then you can also see if it could be an flare up every 4 week or herx. but all the apps i found where bullcrap, can you recommend one?
15
yup, all the apps are bullcrap

in fact the key thing to appreciate is that the value to be obtained is not from some magic or technology in the app, but in the reasoning and logic applied by the user - there are no shortcuts

i use MS Excel - keep data in a table - 1 column per day - and plot that in a simple line chart - but you can do the same thing in Google Sheets(free), Microsoft 365 online(free) or whatever the Linux based equivalents are

the key aspects to take care of are
1, start by establishing a baseline - so you have a useful reference point for your health status starting from before interventions
2, measure both inputs/interventions - and - outcomes
3, make the outcome measures objective (things you can objectively measure - rather than subjectively observe)
4,keep the way you measure inputs and outcomes consistent over time -both day to day - and over the long term to avoid drift devaluing your tool (document exactly how you do this for each measure as a reminder to yourself)
5, use charts to visualise trends, delayed effects, unexpected effects you cannot notice subjectively
6, you will find that its helpful to keep all of your measures as scores out of 10 or 20 or 5 or some round number - so that everything is easier to reason - and fits on the same chart easily. Also give some thought to how you score each measure - eg directionality - eg make higher numbers "good" for all measures - or higher numbers "bad" - as thsi will be important when trying to combine scores for an "overall measure" ie for determining "am i improving or declining over time?"

i hope its of some help
ill since Feb 2015 – Lyme (Armin), Mycoplasma Pn, suspected Bart
Bart now conclusively diagnosed by microscopy see https://tinyurl.com/2eatxxz7
50% recovered - most useful approaches:
=Wholefood Keto Diet
=Exercise – initially walking – now weights too
=Buhner Lyme herbs and co-infect herbs
=Immune modulation- Ivermectin and LDN
=Methylene Blue (Bart)
+T4 and T3 for thyroid

Post Edited (Garzie) : 12/20/2023 3:30:27 AM (GMT-8)

16
thats sounds lovely, i mean i have my smar***ch and i can see mostly on my steps a day how fit i am.
but i think its better to see which herbs and which symptoms increase or not. maybe you can share the excel file? would be awesome. thank you!
17
unfortunately my excel file will make no sense to anyone but me as i have been using it for several years now and its become rather complex and overwhelming to anyone new to it - so its not a good example of how to do it.
i also did a lot of thigs wrong initially that are baked into mine ( the lessons are those i mentioned above) - so you will spend way more till trying to understand it and why its the way it is - than it would take to just make your own

there really is no magic in mine - its literally just columns and rows - highlight them all - click insert chart - select line or scatter - and that's it

yours will need to be the same - customised to you - using the guide i wrote above as a starting point
the principle is very simple - just record numbers for inputs and outputs you care about each day - and plot them on a chart.

all the best
ill since Feb 2015 – Lyme (Armin), Mycoplasma Pn, suspected Bart
Bart now conclusively diagnosed by microscopy see https://tinyurl.com/2eatxxz7
50% recovered - most useful approaches:
=Wholefood Keto Diet
=Exercise – initially walking – now weights too
=Buhner Lyme herbs and co-infect herbs
=Immune modulation- Ivermectin and LDN
=Methylene Blue (Bart)
+T4 and T3 for thyroid
18
ok i will try to make a simple one, and can share mine.
19
OK i felt bad not offering an actual file - so i have created a simple template in MS Excel and loaded it to my google drive ( it seems this about the best option to host excel files at present )

if you have MS office - you should be able to download it and use Excel to open and edit it offline on your own machine from the link below - or open it in google sheets if you don't have MS Office

you will still need to adapt it to whatever trials and measures you are using - and that's really where all the thought needs to go in and where the value comes from - but the columns / rows and chart are configured

i have put some sample data in for the first 30 days so you can see roughly how it might look
snapshot here
https://tinyurl.com/24l9bzfq

link to file here
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ko8d9poiijgketebgsemwgxdxwom5kdb/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=107444071949869960541&rtpof=true&sd=true
ill since Feb 2015 – Lyme (Armin), Mycoplasma Pn, suspected Bart
Bart now conclusively diagnosed by microscopy see https://tinyurl.com/2eatxxz7
60% recovered - most useful approaches:
=Wholefood Keto Diet
=Exercise – initially walking – now weights too
=Buhner Lyme herbs and co-infect herbs
=Immune modulation- Ivermectin and LDN
=Methylene Blue (Bart)
+T4 and T3 for thyroid

Post Edited (Garzie) : 3/23/2024 11:28:01 AM (GMT-8)

20
haha you dont have to feel bad about it, but thank you so much!!!