Hi folks,
I've been diagnosed with advanced chronic Lyme, and with Bart, and I figured out myself that I have Babs. I'm treating with herbs and supps, mostly a la Buhner, but I have read Rawls and Ross also.
I don't recall what Buhner says about overall strategy. I'm hitting them all at the same time, but most of the weight is on Lyme, via cat's claw, knotweed, and gao teng.
Does anyone have any knowledge or experience on the best way to proceed? A little bit of history. I was in the hospital a few years ago and they diagnosed me with magnesium deficiency. It must have been bad, since they pumped me full of the stuff. But since then I forgot about it, until a few months ago. Then I rediscovered magnesium. It made me feel so good I stopped the herbs. Maybe 10 weeks later the disease flared up gangbusters. Apparently feeding the Lyme while not controlling its growth is not a good thing to do. It's taken me a couple of months, but I think I'm reaching a balance point where I can enjoy the magnesium and still keep the Lyme under control.
So I'm looking for thoughts on the best strategy going forward.
Thanks.
___
Lyme, Bart, Babs.
Undiagnosed Babesia for many years.
Lyme 10 years ago, and again 5 years ago.
Found no help in either the medical-industrial complex or a LLMD.
Self-treating with herbs, mostly Buhner protocols.
i am in much teh same boat
i haven't seen buhner write much about treating multiple infections concurrently
in general from his approaches and reading most of his lyme and co-infections books - he does seem to favor going after them all together at the same time. that's what i am doing.
and in general, his principles seem to include treating based on the most prominent symptoms - in terms of if CNS symptoms seem worst - then give more of the herbs that treat CNS inflammation
in his bart book - he says treating concurrent coinfections may be complex and nuanced and we are still discovering how best to do it
that it might take very large doses to be effective - or conversely it may be that tiny doses are all that can be tolerated and yet may be effective in these cases.
but in reality, from more recent research it seems most people who have lyme have multiple concurrent co-infections - so perhaps those that seem to only have Lyme - just have more Lyme symptoms than anything else - or at least assume they do - and that therefore treating based on the symptoms seems effective for most ....
i haven't seen buhner write much about treating multiple infections concurrently
in general from his approaches and reading most of his lyme and co-infections books - he does seem to favor going after them all together at the same time. that's what i am doing.
and in general, his principles seem to include treating based on the most prominent symptoms - in terms of if CNS symptoms seem worst - then give more of the herbs that treat CNS inflammation
in his bart book - he says treating concurrent coinfections may be complex and nuanced and we are still discovering how best to do it
that it might take very large doses to be effective - or conversely it may be that tiny doses are all that can be tolerated and yet may be effective in these cases.
but in reality, from more recent research it seems most people who have lyme have multiple concurrent co-infections - so perhaps those that seem to only have Lyme - just have more Lyme symptoms than anything else - or at least assume they do - and that therefore treating based on the symptoms seems effective for most ....
Some of the herbs overlap.
Japanese knotweed is for both lyme and bart.
Sida Acuta is for both bart and Babesia.
So you could focus on lyme - take JK and Cats Claw - then after awhile add in Sida Acuta... etc
Remember to start with just one herb and only add new herbs - one at a time
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
Japanese knotweed is for both lyme and bart.
Sida Acuta is for both bart and Babesia.
So you could focus on lyme - take JK and Cats Claw - then after awhile add in Sida Acuta... etc
Remember to start with just one herb and only add new herbs - one at a time
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
Post Edited (Girlie) : 3/20/2021 8:36:58 AM (GMT-6)
Garzie said...
in general from his approaches and reading most of his lyme and co-infections books - he does seem to favor going after them all together at the same time. that's what i am doing.
Thank you, Garzie. I find that reassuring. I also didn't retain an impression of treating one at a time from Buhner, but I don't trust my memory on details all the time, I've read so much it gets confusing, but it seems to me he would have stressed the point if he held that position.
What prompted my question was a recent video by Dr. Ross in which he mentioned not to treat Bart and Lyme at the same time. I don't know his reasoning, and his context was pharmaceuticals, so maybe herbs are a different story.
Girlie said...
Some of the herbs overlap.
Remember to start with just one herb and only add new herbs - one at a time
I'm cautious when adding herbs. Start low, go slow. When there's a problem I drop back and test to see what's causing it. Sometimes symptoms are not linear, though, and it's hard to tell.
Another thing Dr. Ross has written is not to take more than 4 drugs or herbs at the same time. Drugs, perhaps, but herbs, I can't see that flying at all.
Thank you, Breezzy. That indeed is the video I was referring to. I didn't take note of what exactly he said or where in the video it was that gave me the impression I had. But what he says at 1:09 does correspond to what he writes below, so perhaps I got the wrong impression.
Chronic Lyme Disease Treatment Guideline - Marty Ross MD
https://www.treatlyme.net/lyme-disease-treatment-guidelines
Part 12. Coinfection Treatments
Treatments
Do not start treatments for the Bartonella or Babesia coinfections at the initial visit. Wait one month or longer to adjust to the Herxheimer die-off reaction from treating the Lyme infection and to stabilize on the supportive supplements.
If you have both of these coinfections, treat one first before adding a treatment for the other. When both are present, my preference is to treat for Bartonella first for two to three months and then add treatment for Babesia. Treat these coinfections at the same time you treat the Lyme infection.
___
Lyme, Bart, Babs.
Undiagnosed Babesia for many years.
Lyme 10 years ago, and again 5 years ago.
Found no help in either the medical-industrial complex or a LLMD.
Self-treating with herbs, mostly Buhner protocols.
Chronic Lyme Disease Treatment Guideline - Marty Ross MD
https://www.treatlyme.net/lyme-disease-treatment-guidelines
Part 12. Coinfection Treatments
Treatments
Do not start treatments for the Bartonella or Babesia coinfections at the initial visit. Wait one month or longer to adjust to the Herxheimer die-off reaction from treating the Lyme infection and to stabilize on the supportive supplements.
If you have both of these coinfections, treat one first before adding a treatment for the other. When both are present, my preference is to treat for Bartonella first for two to three months and then add treatment for Babesia. Treat these coinfections at the same time you treat the Lyme infection.
___
Lyme, Bart, Babs.
Undiagnosed Babesia for many years.
Lyme 10 years ago, and again 5 years ago.
Found no help in either the medical-industrial complex or a LLMD.
Self-treating with herbs, mostly Buhner protocols.
With Pharma you’re treating both together.
When you treat bart with two or more abx - at least one treats lyme as well.
Same with Babesia -
Dr Jemsek treats Babs (and lyme) first - then bart (and lyme)
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
When you treat bart with two or more abx - at least one treats lyme as well.
Same with Babesia -
Dr Jemsek treats Babs (and lyme) first - then bart (and lyme)
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
paul b said...
Another thing Dr. Ross has written is not to take more than 4 drugs or herbs at the same time. Drugs, perhaps, but herbs, I can't see that flying at all.
i think that's likely a general rule to try to simplify for a wide audience
but the fact is herbs are generally used in combinations of four or more as the norm - eg in traditional Chinese medicine
if following a herbal approach i would tend to follow the process laid down by the herbalist over that of an MD who is not averse to adding herbs into his protocols., not that I have anything against Dr M.R - just that its not his specialism.
Agree about the herbs and what Astro said.
Buhner recommends several
For instance:
Babesia - Cryptolepis , Sida Acuta and alchornea cordifolia
PLUS other supportive herbs added to those.
Antibiotics - monotherapy not recommended - two / three is the norm.
Or more if dr J is your LLMD - but they are only taken a few days a week
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
Buhner recommends several
For instance:
Babesia - Cryptolepis , Sida Acuta and alchornea cordifolia
PLUS other supportive herbs added to those.
Antibiotics - monotherapy not recommended - two / three is the norm.
Or more if dr J is your LLMD - but they are only taken a few days a week
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
Yes, Buhner is very clear in his Lyme book that anything on top of his basic Core protocol can involve MANY herbs concurrently. After I read MR's limit of 4, even pertaining to herbs, I began to get the sense of "too many chefs spoil the broth". I would stick with Buhner, but I would ask some questions to make sure I'm doing it correctly.
___
Lyme, Bart, Babs.
Undiagnosed Babesia for many years.
Lyme 10 years ago, and again 5 years ago.
Found no help in either the medical-industrial complex or a LLMD.
Self-treating with herbs, mostly Buhner protocols.
___
Lyme, Bart, Babs.
Undiagnosed Babesia for many years.
Lyme 10 years ago, and again 5 years ago.
Found no help in either the medical-industrial complex or a LLMD.
Self-treating with herbs, mostly Buhner protocols.
Hi Paul!
I had positive tests for Lyme, ehrlichia, and chlamydia pneumonia and had strong clinical symptoms of bartonella and wasn’t sure about babesia.
I treated using Buhner’s protocols as a guide and kind of mixed several protocols together. I felt like bartonella was likely the dominant one, so I started out trying to do most of the full bartonella protocol minus the arginine, as I had shingles. I also dropped Cordyceps right away. I had the powder and thought it was making my chemical sensitivities worse, but I am taking it in tincture form right now and it seems okay.
I used Japanese knotweed, which is in the Lyme and bartonella protocols. I only took incredibly tiny doses of cats claw for a shorter period, as it made my joint pain worse. I never used andrographis until much, much later and only very briefly. I didn’t get hives, but it just didn’t feel right for me for some reason.
I ended up dropping a lot off the bartonella protocol, but I used sida acuta (bart and babs), houttuynia, alchornea, Isatis, and Bidens pilosa. I had Chinese skullcap, kudzu, red root, and danshen/red sage (only in the early part) as supportive herbs. Also took Gou-teng and lion’s mane at times.
I had positive tests for Lyme, ehrlichia, and chlamydia pneumonia and had strong clinical symptoms of bartonella and wasn’t sure about babesia.
I treated using Buhner’s protocols as a guide and kind of mixed several protocols together. I felt like bartonella was likely the dominant one, so I started out trying to do most of the full bartonella protocol minus the arginine, as I had shingles. I also dropped Cordyceps right away. I had the powder and thought it was making my chemical sensitivities worse, but I am taking it in tincture form right now and it seems okay.
I used Japanese knotweed, which is in the Lyme and bartonella protocols. I only took incredibly tiny doses of cats claw for a shorter period, as it made my joint pain worse. I never used andrographis until much, much later and only very briefly. I didn’t get hives, but it just didn’t feel right for me for some reason.
I ended up dropping a lot off the bartonella protocol, but I used sida acuta (bart and babs), houttuynia, alchornea, Isatis, and Bidens pilosa. I had Chinese skullcap, kudzu, red root, and danshen/red sage (only in the early part) as supportive herbs. Also took Gou-teng and lion’s mane at times.
Hi Faith,
That sounds a lot like my regimen. I'm doing everything but the kitchen sink. I find the Andrographis this time around can cause lower leg itching, so I take very little of it. Perhaps it's the new brand; not sure. I'm very big on Arginine. I'm using Vitacost's -HCL type, 1800mg, so I only dose 3x a day. I think for me Babs might be dominant, but I'm quite confused at this point and am taking it day by day. I only know that Magnesium made a big difference for me. It still does, and now that I'm also dosing while taking it I'm hopeful again. I'm also back on DE for general purposes and the possibility of yeast.
___
Lyme, Bart, Babs.
Undiagnosed Babesia for many years.
Lyme 10 years ago, and again 5 years ago.
Found no help in either the medical-industrial complex or a LLMD.
Self-treating with herbs, mostly Buhner protocols.
That sounds a lot like my regimen. I'm doing everything but the kitchen sink. I find the Andrographis this time around can cause lower leg itching, so I take very little of it. Perhaps it's the new brand; not sure. I'm very big on Arginine. I'm using Vitacost's -HCL type, 1800mg, so I only dose 3x a day. I think for me Babs might be dominant, but I'm quite confused at this point and am taking it day by day. I only know that Magnesium made a big difference for me. It still does, and now that I'm also dosing while taking it I'm hopeful again. I'm also back on DE for general purposes and the possibility of yeast.
___
Lyme, Bart, Babs.
Undiagnosed Babesia for many years.
Lyme 10 years ago, and again 5 years ago.
Found no help in either the medical-industrial complex or a LLMD.
Self-treating with herbs, mostly Buhner protocols.